Guinness Pro12 2016-2017

phog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

From next season the top 7 Pro12 sides will qualify for the Champions Cup regardless of which county they come from. http://www.pro12rugby.com/2017/05/18/pro12-rugby-welcomes-epcr-reforms/

Great news.

connemara man

Major League Rugby on the way as the US looks to fulfil its vast potential http://the42.ie/3384786

Another attempt at a professional league starting in 2018

MJohnston

I dunno, couldn't be any worse than Italian trips tbh, just more expensive!

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Restructure the league? Excellent.

Look I think the idea is absolutely bonkers too, but at least it's an attempt to change a very stale product. It's an acknowledgement by the blazer squads that the current league needs a facelift.

Is the product stale?

connemara man

Zebre are the only awkward one and I haven't been on an Italian trip for more than 100 flight and hotel

thomond2006

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is the product stale?

It is for me IMO.

connemara man

thomond2006 wrote: »

It is for me IMO.

In what way?

thomond2006

connemara man wrote: »

In what way?

The same teams are involved every year. The Christmas interpros with shadow squads every year.

The introduction of playoffs gave it a boost but that's 6/7 seasons ago now.

pickarooney

MJohnston wrote: »

There would have to be a fairly unique structure, but USA already has a model in most of their sports. Basically, you would have Pro12 European and American conferences, each conference is its own separate league. Then at the end of the season, the top 2 from each league are dropped into a knockout semi-final and final as is currently the case with the top 4. Top team from each conference would play second-placed team from the other conference at home, final at a venue rotated between the two.

I dunno, I guess it could work?

Where would you get 12 pro teams in the US?

connemara man

thomond2006 wrote: »

The same teams are involved every year. The Christmas interpros with shadow squads every year.

The introduction of playoffs gave it a boost but that's 6/7 seasons ago now.

But don't the other 2 big European leagues have the same issue

The Lost Sheep

thomond2006 wrote:

The introduction of playoffs gave it a boost but that's 6/7 seasons ago now.
The same teams are involved every year.

it's pretty much same teams involved in th other leagues. How can you address this. Straight fight for European spots wont shake things up so much. Will it?

Subpopulus

I simply don't understand these persistent efforts by the Pro12 organisers to expand the league. I get that they're trying to broaden the viewer base to maximise TV revenue but any of the teams proposed for Pro12 membership are just odds and sods from here and there - Premiership discontents, South African Teams, US teams, the London exile teams. What would these second-rate teams bring to the Pro12? The Pro12 would turn into a Frankensteins monster of a competition if any of these were allowed to join.

Aside from the logistical concerns, would any fans welcome the addition of a US club? They would likely be hockeyed on a regular basis. We don't need another Zebre.

I don't think it's viable. Heuston would just be the next Celtic Warriors, the Caledonian Reds, the next Arioni... It wouldn't do much for US rugby to graft a team onto a league on the far side of the Atlantic - much better to develop an indigenous competition that could build a genuine North American rugby scene with it's own clubs, rivalries, traditions etc.

Bazzo

pickarooney wrote: »

Where would you get 12 pro teams in the US?

Even if you could find them the 2 conferences would be hilariously lopsided in terms of team ability. The "Semis" each year would end up in the Americans being pumped and the real knockout taking place between 1 and 2 in the European pro12.

MJohnston

pickarooney wrote: »

Where would you get 12 pro teams in the US?

Canada (I said American, not USA).

Anyway, realistically I'd prefer any expansion to come from within Europe.

DGRulz

Saw talk of the rugby subreddit of two of the South African teams joining the Pro12 as the SARU have decided against merging.

thomond2006

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

it's pretty much same teams involved in th other leagues. How can you address this. Straight fight for European spots wont shake things up so much. Will it?

The same way the NFL does despite having the same teams every year: Conferences and rotating inter-conference matches.

Erik Shin

What with the residency rule shot to bits and the IRFU having appointed an overseas scout (for want of a better word)...could the idea of London Irish coming into the Pro12 and being a 5th province in 2-3 years time not be looked at again...would definitely benefit the national game if it was handled correctly

DGRulz

thomond2006 wrote: »

The same way the NFL does despite having the same teams every year: Conferences and rotating inter-conference matches.

I've been in favour of a British and Irish (or even a Celtic/Anglo/Franco) Conference style league for ages, but it'll never happen.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

The same way the NFL does despite having the same teams every year: Conferences and rotating inter-conference matches.

I have no idea how this could possibly make that much of a difference tbh unless you really reduce the number of games being played. And that will effect the commercial side of things.

The simple fact of the matter is that the Pro12 seem to want to up the revenue in the league. But there is little focus on what are strengths are vs the other 2 leagues in Europe. They have more money, sure. But we have larger catchment areas for individual teams and more international players. That's where the focus should be. On playing to our core strengths and solidifying what is already there. Expansion onto a league that is struggling in it's original markets (other than Ireland, where it still isn't flourishing) isn't going to help anyone.

Podge_irl

Erik Shin wrote: »

What with the residency rule shot to bits and the IRFU having appointed an overseas scout (for want of a better word)...could the idea of London Irish coming into the Pro12 and being a 5th province in 2-3 years time not be looked at again...would definitely benefit the national game if it was handled correctly

Can't have a team based in English (under the RFU) playing in the Pro12.

The problem with the league is nothing to do with it being "stale". There are problems with weak teams for inter-pros and Welsh indifference. Those problems will remain even with a pointlessly expanded league. I would argue the exact opposite to be honest, what the league needs is stability.

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

I have no idea how this could possibly make that much of a difference tbh unless you really reduce the number of games being played. And that will effect the commercial side of things.

The simple fact of the matter is that the Pro12 seem to want to up the revenue in the league. But there is little focus on what are strengths are vs the other 2 leagues in Europe. They have more money, sure. But we have larger catchment areas for individual teams and more international players. That's where the focus should be. On playing to our core strengths and solidifying what is already there. Expansion onto a league that is struggling in it's original markets (other than Ireland, where it still isn't flourishing) isn't going to help anyone.

You reduce the number of games, that's an absolute must. The commercial side of things can be taken care of if the TV money increases. The Six Nations is a huge money maker despite being 5 weekends long. The international players is currently a disadvantage as much as an advantage as they are unavailable for many games which makes the league look like a training session competition.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

You reduce the number of games, that's an absolute must. The commercial side of things can be taken care of if the TV money increases. The Six Nations is a huge money maker despite being 5 weekends long. The international players is currently a disadvantage as much as an advantage as they are unavailable for many games which makes the league look like a training session competition.

How do you increase TV revenue with less games?

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

How do you increase TV revenue with less games?

Really?

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

Really?

Yes, really.

The TV money will only increase if we can sort out the market. The issue isn't the numbers watching per se, but the fact that there is no single big market. The French and the English have a single market, with a single provider and a single language.

Reducing the number of games to make each one more relevant might make the product a better one, and probably will lead to higher viewing figures per game. But will it lead to higher viewing figures for a full season? Especially when there are so many other logistical issues at play?

Winters

I would like to see more trophies like the 1872 cup being rewarded throughout the season. Like a Judgement Day Trophy and an Interpro Trophy. Would give us that difference between the other leagues.

Hopefully with the expanded season it may give is scope to play the interpros with full strength squads.

The derby weekend is a great idea but not on the last day of the season.

MarinersBlues

thomond2006 wrote: »

connemara man wrote: »

In what way?

The same teams are involved every year. The Christmas interpros with shadow squads every year.

The introduction of playoffs gave it a boost but that's 6/7 seasons ago now.

7 different winners in 15 years.

There's not much you can do about the interpro shadow teams when the players are centrally contracted.
It doesn't make sense for the IRFU to send the internationals out against each other in a physical game 4 weeks before the 6N.

Riskymove

MarinersBlues wrote: »

7 different winners in 15 years.

True but basically 5 teams have dominated the tops spots and playoffs

Leinster, Ulster, Munster, Opsreys and Glasgow

Podge_irl

Riskymove wrote: »

True but basically 5 teams have dominated the tops spots and playoffs

Leinster, Ulster, Munster, Opsreys and Glasgow

That's not exactly unusual is it?

Riskymove

Podge_irl wrote: »

That's not exactly unusual is it?

I suppose the point is that 15 years on, little has changed.

Other teams have not progressed (the odd surprise certainly), even in a situation where the top teams are essentially playing second teams for many games

If they want to increase money and numbers (both viewing and attending) they have a lot of work to do. these changes to qualification won't really address these issues.

irishbucsfan

Glasgow have come on leaps and bounds. Connacht won the thing last year. Scarlets look strong now. Seems plenty of room to grow to me.

Riskymove

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Glasgow have come on leaps and bounds. Connacht won the thing last year. Scarlets look strong now. Seems plenty of room to grow to me.

Glasgow have been a regular in top spots for a while now

Connacht only made payoffs once...we'll have to see if it happens again or if its an outlier....

numbers/quality remain big issues

awec

Ulster beat Scarlets in the playoffs about 4 years ago too so it's not as if them being good is a big improvement.

The league's quality is questionable, it's not terrible but it's not great either. There are basically 6 or 7 good teams and then 5 or 6 teams that are pretty much dross. Adding teams isn't going to fix that though.

If the league wants a big image improvement it needs to get rid of the ridiculous fixtures during the six nations (not possible with 12 teams) and get rid of the nonsense of teams having to rest players (not possible when the league is run by unions). In reality we have a league whose main purpose is to give lads a runabout to stay fit for european and test rugby. It is not hard to see why the top 14 and AP are taken more seriously.

Cardiff have a couple of times in the last few seasons looked on the verge of making a step up, I dunno if it's squad depth or what but they never seem to make it. I don't think they're that far off either.

Scarlets had a really good season. Very unlucky to be out of the top 2 with 77 points. Leinster and Muster just had unprecedented seasons, Munster on 86 is the most points ever in the league and Leinster on 85 is the second most points ever.

thomond2006

I'm not sure if the Dragons have a future. Even cutting to 11 would eliminate two shadow squad matches.

Buer

It's pretty much the same as any of the other leagues. Once in a blue moon, a team emerges to challenge as Connacht did. Once in a while, their emergence is far more gradual to the point that they're genuine contenders over a sustained period like Glasgow did.

Since 1998, only 6 teams have won the Premiership. Of those, Quins and Northampton have slipped back into the middle of the table where they originally were.

Since 1992 only 7 teams have won the T14 with Perpignan and Biarritz now relegated.

I suppose the Super Rugby competition has shown the most variety in terms of champions but that is largely down to recent times. Since 2010, there have been 6 different winners. Alternatively, between 1996 and 2010, there were only 4 winners.

Exeter have been doing brilliantly in the AP, finished second two years in a row now having only been promoted about 5 years ago. Play some fantastic rugby too. Looks like they're sustaining it though which is impressive.

Wasps having been a dominant side came within a point of being relegated in 11/12, now they're back up the top again (with a bit of investment).

connemara man

If dragons were to fold I'd say there place would be taken by another Welsh franchise, the WRU would want as many Welsh teams playing as possible.

Long term and I mean seriously long term like 10-15 years long. I can see a 3rd Scottish team again along the borders line and a 5th Welsh region, possibly to the north as the Italians head into a pro league at home. Or the Pro 12 turns to a pro 10.

The Italians need a solid base for international rugby and a 10 club league there that has 2 teams in the Champions cup would do that. The Scottish need an expanded player base and the Welsh will try and increase their set up.

Riskymove

Buer wrote: »

It's pretty much the same as any of the other leagues.

I accept all this but it is not just about the standings and winners.....the actual quality and occassion of the pro12 can be awful

the interpros (which on paper should be marquee events) have been reduced to almost non-competitive warm ups for Euro games

One game I attended lasted 110 mins in total and was among the most grim I ever sat through...I despair at the amount of errors and reset scrums

You hardly see the first choice internationals over the season

bilston

To be honest I don't see why the league can't grow into other European countries. As long as the team concerned can generate good crowds and get decent financial backing then could be a success. Just because we have restrictions on foreign imports doesn't mean to say a team based in the Basque Country would have to. They would probably get decent support and with a bit of money could build a decent competitive squad, even if it meant not having a majority Spanish qualified players to begin with, it would certainly make a lot more sense that going to the other side of the Atlantic.

Anyway that probably isn't going to happen in the short term. What is going to happen is a renegotiation of the TV deal. We ar coming to the end of the 3rd year of a 4 year deal with Sky and the various FTA companies like BBC, TG4 and S4C. Presumably a deal will be concluded in the not so distant future. The worry is that there are signs that Sky's commitment to rugby is waning, maybe BT will step in or Setanta or someone random, but let's hope they get a bit more money next time round.

Bazzo

Kolten Low Vet wrote: »

Exeter have been doing brilliantly in the AP, finished second two years in a row now having only been promoted about 5 years ago. Play some fantastic rugby too. Looks like they're sustaining it though which is impressive.

Wasps having been a dominant side came within a point of being relegated in 11/12, now they're back up the top again (with a bit of investment).

Understatement of the century there...

Bridge93

Pro 12 top 4 finishes in the last 14 years sinc the arrival of regions and a single league:
Leinster 10
Ospreys 9
Munster 8
Ulster 7
Glasgow 6
Scarlets 3
Cardiff 3
Edinburgh 2
Dragons 2
Connacht 1
Celtic Warriors 1

Premiership Top 4 in same period:
Leicester 13
Saracens 9
Northampton 7
Bath 7
Wasps 6
Gloucester 4
Harlequins 4
Sale 2
London Irish 2
Exeter 2
Bristol 1

Top 14: Only 13 years as before then it was 2 groups
Clermont 11
Toulouse 11
Toulon 7
Stade Francais 6
Perpignan 4
Montpellier 3
Castres 3
Biarritz 3
Racing Metro 2
Bourgoin 1
La Rochelle 1

All 3 leagues have had 11 teams finish in the top 4 in the last 13/14 years. As a maths man this excites me more than it should

awec

bilston wrote: »

To be honest I don't see why the league can't grow into other European countries. As long as the team concerned can generate good crowds and get decent financial backing then could be a success. Just because we have restrictions on foreign imports doesn't mean to say a team based in the Basque Country would have to. They would probably get decent support and with a bit of money could build a decent competitive squad, even if it meant not having a majority Spanish qualified players to begin with, it would certainly make a lot more sense that going to the other side of the Atlantic.

Anyway that probably isn't going to happen in the short term. What is going to happen is a renegotiation of the TV deal. We ar coming to the end of the 3rd year of a 4 year deal with Sky and the various FTA companies like BBC, TG4 and S4C. Presumably a deal will be concluded in the not so distant future. The worry is that there are signs that Sky's commitment to rugby is waning, maybe BT will step in or Setanta or someone random, but let's hope they get a bit more money next time round.

I don't think the PRO12 would allow non-union run teams in. They would be ripe for picking up some private backer and throw money at players.

Anyone coming in is going to have to follow the same international-first approach.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

I don't think the PRO12 would allow non-union run teams in. They would be ripe for picking up some private backer and throw money at players.

Anyone coming in is going to have to follow the same international-first approach.

There are already non-union run teams in the league so I'm not really sure that's true.

It's very unlikely however that any private clubs out there will be a candidate to join any time soon, unless it's from the US

bilston

bilston wrote: »

To be honest I don't see why the league can't grow into other European countries. As long as the team concerned can generate good crowds and get decent financial backing then could be a success. Just because we have restrictions on foreign imports doesn't mean to say a team based in the Basque Country would have to. They would probably get decent support and with a bit of money could build a decent competitive squad, even if it meant not having a majority Spanish qualified players to begin with, it would certainly make a lot more sense that going to the other side of the Atlantic.

Anyway that probably isn't going to happen in the short term. What is going to happen is a renegotiation of the TV deal. We ar coming to the end of the 3rd year of a 4 year deal with Sky and the various FTA companies like BBC, TG4 and S4C. Presumably a deal will be concluded in the not so distant future. The worry is that there are signs that Sky's commitment to rugby is waning, maybe BT will step in or Setanta or someone random, but let's hope they get a bit more money next time round.

I think a pretty big limitation on the Pro12 compared to the other leagues is that the Pro12 teams with few exceptions have to grow organically. I know the likes of Wasps and Saracens have a good few English players but they've also spent huge money on signings and whatever else. Ditto for Toulon, Racing etc. I can never see a situation where an investor comes into a Pro12 side, buys them a stadium and signs Kurley Beale for a season, because what team would they invest in?

It's not just money though, as the Pro12 teams tend to have a mandate to supply the national teams much moreso than the English or French.

pickarooney

DGRulz wrote: »

Saw talk of the rugby subreddit of two of the South African teams joining the Pro12 as the SARU have decided against merging.

Yeah that's like me issuing a press conference saying I'm going to marry Ilana Glazer.

bilston

I know they are based on the French side of the border but the Catalan Dragons have been a reason able success in Super League. Maybe that gives us a clue as to how a Catalan Rugby Union (Spanish based though) team might fare in the Pro 12.

I'm not a League head by any means by the Catalan Dragons have been about for about 20 years now.

pickarooney

bilston wrote: »

I know they are based on the French side of the border but the Catalan Dragons have been a reason able success in Super League. Maybe that gives us a clue as to how a Catalan Rugby Union (Spanish based though) team might fare in the Pro 12.

I'm not a League head by any means by the Catalan Dragons have been about for about 20 years now.

I'd say Perpignan would bite your hand off for a lifeline like that.

phog

Pro12 have announced a moratorium on tickets sales for the final from later today until 9 tomorrow evening.

Riskymove

phog wrote: »

Pro12 have announced a moratorium on tickets sales from later today until 9 tomorrow evening.

for the final?

irishbucsfan

Riskymove wrote: »

for the final?

Yes