Guinness Pro12 2016-2017

FACECUTTR

bilston wrote: »

There was an interesting conversation on Scrum V tonight about how Gatland's law is going to start to kick in this year, basically Wales can only select three non Welsh based players and they will without doubt be Roberts, North and Felatau. Bad news for Priestland then, however imagine Halfpenny was fit then a tough choice would have to be made. The reason I bring it up is that this should be a major boost to the Welsh regions once the Welsh players start to see that they will actually miss out on selection if they move away.

Apparently Halfpenny is exempt until next year lol. It supposedly only applies to players who were offered a contract by the WRU excluding Halfpenny.

irishbucsfan

FACECUTTR wrote: »

Apparently Halfpenny is exempt until next year lol. It supposedly only applies to players who were offered a contract by the WRU excluding Halfpenny.

It doesn't apply to any player who had signed a contract abroad before a certain date and Halfpenny is in the final year of that contract, after this year he will be one of the players.

bilston

FACECUTTR wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

There was an interesting conversation on Scrum V tonight about how Gatland's law is going to start to kick in this year, basically Wales can only select three non Welsh based players and they will without doubt be Roberts, North and Felatau. Bad news for Priestland then, however imagine Halfpenny was fit then a tough choice would have to be made. The reason I bring it up is that this should be a major boost to the Welsh regions once the Welsh players start to see that they will actually miss out on selection if they move away.

Apparently Halfpenny is exempt until next year lol. It supposedly only applies to players who were offered a contract by the WRU excluding Halfpenny.

Ah I didn't pick up on that. I just assumed he was injured when he wasn't listed.

razorblunt

I was at the Edinburgh game last night, just over 2100 at it. Pathetic for the first home game of the season, I know the weather wasn't the best but the move to a new stadium later in January has really annoyed people and they're voting with their feet and wallet. It's a catch 22, they need to move away from there, but folk from outside Edinburgh were happy with the park and ride and tram facilities.

The game itself, Edinburgh were well organised in defence but again have zero spark going forward, no idea what Solomon's plan is and this is season 3. Their two tries came from Scarlets mistakes. Their young 8 scored and was sin binned for a tip tackle, he honestly could have been red carded, he lost control of the player so much that he himself was off his feet when driving him into the ground.
Duncan Weir went well though.

The Scarlets were dire, in the first 15 minutes they knocked on every attack. Again they had a strong XV on paper, with Davies and William starting in the center but they looked like club players, way off their international standard. Could be a long, long season for them.

bilston

Worrying regarding the crowd.

Good win for them though.

It's been a very poor start for the Scarlets.

irishbucsfan

I don't want to alarm anyone, but judging by the first 2 weekends there's about a 40% chance that the Welsh sides are serious contenders this season...

thomond2006

Cardiff vs Glasgow next Friday should be a cracker...but it's not on TV.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Cardiff vs Glasgow next Friday should be a cracker...but it's not on TV.

What... that's madness! Surely someone can pick it up!

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't want to alarm anyone, but judging by the first 2 weekends there's about a 40% chance that the Welsh sides are serious contenders this season...

Great for the league though. We need the Welsh to be strong.

Only 2 rounds in but I see 5 potential winners...Glasgow, Leinster, Ulster, Cardiff and the Ospreys. I still think it will come down to Glasgow and the big two Irish provinces (snigger) though.

Cathalthesmart

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't want to alarm anyone, but judging by the first 2 weekends there's about a 40% chance that the Welsh sides are serious contenders this season...

Trap Welsh teams usually fall into. The season is 22 games long, not 2. No Welsh team will win this year, there squads dont have the depth that the Irish provinces (excluding Connacht) and Glasgow have and thats evident year on year. One fact people need to remember from last year...Scarlets where 1st going into the new year. It will be tight between the top 6 provinces and when the internationals return for the provinces they will have there full deck to choose from plus players that will have gotten valuable experience at the beginning. If I was to make a prediction at this point I would say Ulster,Leinster,Glasgow will occupy the top 3 spots in random order and its a fight between Munster,Osperys,Cardiff Blues for the last spot with Munster being favourites.

Adbrowne

bilston wrote: »

Great for the league though. We need the Welsh to be strong.

Only 2 rounds in but I see 5 potential winners...Glasgow, Leinster, Ulster, Cardiff and the Ospreys. I still think it will come down to Glasgow and the big two Irish provinces (snigger) though.

I think Ospreys will be in the playoffs.

Cathalthesmart

bilston wrote: »

Great for the league though. We need the Welsh to be strong.

Only 2 rounds in but I see 5 potential winners...Glasgow, Leinster, Ulster, Cardiff and the Ospreys. I still think it will come down to Glasgow and the big two Irish provinces (snigger) though.

Osperys havent a chance of winning the league, they won tonight because of the Connacht players lack of fitness, if they where to play against Glasgow,Ulster,Leinster tomorrow I would back any of those 3 quite empathically. I would rate Munster's chances higher when you consider the players they have coming back, you may laugh at that but you would have laughed at that statement in 2014/15 after 3 games.

irishbucsfan

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

Osperys havent a chance of winning the league, they won tonight because of the Connacht players lack of fitness, if they where to play against Glasgow,Ulster,Leinster tomorrow I would back any of those 3 quite empathically. I would rate Munster's chances higher when you consider the players they have coming back, you may laugh at that but you would have laughed at that statement in 2014/15 after 3 games.

Cardiff and Ospreys both have really improved their squads this season and neither have Champions Cup rugby to deal with. Let's not fall into a trap of assuming that weaknesses that existed in the past will just remain there indefinitely.

Scarlets have also improved their squad, I think there's more to come from them but maybe not this season.

I'm most interested by Cardiff though because Danny Wilson seems to really know what he's doing.

Cathalthesmart

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Cardiff and Ospreys both have really improved their squads this season and neither have Champions Cup rugby to deal with. Let's not fall into a trap of assuming that weaknesses that existed in the past will just remain there indefinitely.

Scarlets have also improved their squad, I think there's more to come from them but maybe not this season.

I'm most interested by Cardiff though because Danny Wilson seems to really know what he's doing.

I agree about Cardiff, I think if there is a Welsh winner its them but Osperys just dont have the squad an haven't improved it enough to change that. I think there is more to come from Munster too and would expect them to be ahead of one of these Welsh teams aswell. Imo despite the table I felt Cardiff where the best Welsh team last season and look as if they have translated that into this seasons form, the problem is they dont have enough key players to be challengers, can't see them being anything more than a dark horse. The top 6 at this moment in time is pretty clear cut, Welsh teams dont have the depth to just build as the season goes on like Irish teams and Glasgow do, its usually they make a good start and maintain that form or they go nowhere.

thomond2006

So Treviso lose by 11 at home to Ulster, not a terrible result. They have to go to Ospreys next week though and they're in flying form. Dragons at home in Round 4 is a must win.

At this stage I'd back Ospreys to make the playoffs since they can rotate their squad in the Challenge Cup pool stages. They don't have the easiest group (Grenoble, Newcastle, Lyon) but I'm sure the other sides will rotate also as they are all relegation candidates.

Cathalthesmart

I think 3 of the top 4 will be Ulster,Glasgow,Leinster in a random order an then its a fight for the last spot between Munster,Cardiff,Osperys for the last spot. Not to sound biased but I genuinely believe Munster will get 4th place, the two Welsh teams look good so far but as the season goes on they will start to fall away ( just look at Scarlets last season for example). Munster are still a work in progress and I feel they will edge the other 2 for one of those semi final places, maybe I'm being too optimistic but if Foley could get Munster from 2 home defeats in 3 games to being Pro12 runners up and finalists then I feel there is still reasons to be optimistic for Munster. Osperys and Cardiff is interesting because whilst I think Cardiff are a better side (i'd back Cardiff to win if the two met tomorrow regardless of who is home/away) I feel Osperys have the squad and pedigree to go the distance while I feel Cardiff could do what Scarlets did last year and end up hanging on for the C-Cup place.

Cathalthesmart

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

I think 3 of the top 4 will be Ulster,Glasgow,Leinster in a random order an then its a fight for the last spot between Munster,Cardiff,Osperys for the last spot. Not to sound biased but I genuinely believe Munster will get 4th place, the two Welsh teams look good so far but as the season goes on they will start to fall away ( just look at Scarlets last season for example). Munster are still a work in progress and I feel they will edge the other 2 for one of those semi final places, maybe I'm being too optimistic but if Foley could get Munster from 2 home defeats in 3 games to being Pro12 runners up and finalists then I feel there is still reasons to be optimistic for Munster. Osperys and Cardiff is interesting because whilst I think Cardiff are a better side (i'd back Cardiff to win if the two met tomorrow regardless of who is home/away) I feel Osperys have the squad and pedigree to go the distance while I feel Cardiff could do what Scarlets did last year and end up hanging on for the C-Cup place.

If Munster want to be top 4 this year they need to stop losing at home. It was what ruined the season for them last year and it impacts on supporter numbers too. It made the game on Friday a more bitter pill to swallow that the mentality hasn't changed and they showed no fight in the last 5 - 10 minutes.

Cathalthesmart

Deleted User wrote: »

If Munster want to be top 4 this year they need to stop losing at home. It was what ruined the season for them last year and it impacts on supporter numbers too. It made the game on Friday a more bitter pill to swallow that the mentality hasn't changed and they showed no fight in the last 5 - 10 minutes.

I agree, however in regards to having a fortress I feel our fortress is Thomand Park, Musgrave doesn't make a team fear coming over and it never really has. We have 2 games coming up which we should win comfortably and that will build confidence going into the Leinster game.

razorblunt

The crowd at Glasgow - Leinster on Saturday was the 6th biggest in Scotland (in all their sports) this weekend at over 7000.

bilston

What's the capacity of Scotstoun?

The Glasgow Warriors have so much potential.

vienne86

bilston wrote: »

What's the capacity of Scotstoun?

The Glasgow Warriors have so much potential.

I think it's something like 7.2K, so almost a full house on Saturday.

Rigor Mortis

Deleted User wrote: »

If Munster want to be top 4 this year they need to stop losing at home. It was what ruined the season for them last year and it impacts on supporter numbers too. It made the game on Friday a more bitter pill to swallow that the mentality hasn't changed and they showed no fight in the last 5 - 10 minutes.

If Munster want to be top 4 this season, Tyler B needs to stay fit. A Munster team with Keats in the box seat wont be able to get the playoffs.
I think Glasgow, Ulster, Leinster and Ospreys. Scarlets, Connacht, Cardiff and Munster scrapping for fifth, sixth and seventh.

The league is getting a lot tighter around the middle.

Rigor Mortis

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

If Munster want to be top 4 this season, Tyler B needs to stay fit. A Munster team with Keats in the box seat wont be able to get the playoffs.
I think Glasgow, Ulster, Leinster and Ospreys. Scarlets, Connacht, Cardiff and Munster scrapping for fifth, sixth and seventh.

The league is getting a lot tighter around the middle.

I find it astounding that having not played for 2 years and with no proven track record that people believe Bleyendaal will automatically be superior to Keatley. A lot of Munster's on the field problems get blamed on Keatley but have origins elsewhere.

Felix Jones is God

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I find it astounding that having not played for 2 years and with no proven track record that people believe Bleyendaal will automatically be superior to Keatley. A lot of Munster's on the field problems get blamed on Keatley but have origins elsewhere.

No, I think Keatleys problems get blamed on Keatley ....can't blame anybody else for kicking out on the full, easy penalty misses and generally poor decision making .....when he has a good game, he gets praised....but he majes too many clangers these days, put him at 15, he has the necessary tools to do well there

Felix Jones is God

Felix Jones is God wrote: »

No, I think Keatleys problems get blamed on Keatley ....can't blame anybody else for kicking out on the full, easy penalty misses and generally poor decision making .....when he has a good game, he gets praised....but he majes too many clangers these days, put him at 15, he has the necessary tools to do well there

I would say he kicks out on the full about as often as Earls throws the ball into touch. Madigan kicked the ball into touch once per match last season!

Keatley definitely has a problem with his place kicking, a lot of the other errors are down to constantly being under pressure behind a weak pack.

Cathalthesmart

I find it laughable how people think Osperys are automatically a top 4 after these two games, I saw nothing from them vs Connacht to make me think they will be there about at the end of the season and if it wasn't for there superior fitness due to Connacht's lack of a pre season I dont think they would have won. The reality is its between Osperys,Munster,Cardiff for the 4th place and the last 2 will occupy 5th and 6th. Welsh teams usually make decent starts and people start talking them up but as the season goes on the greater depth of the Irish squad's + Glasgow reigns through, Scarlets last year where the perfect example of this. Im pretty sure you will see Cardiff emplode by the end of the season which will leave Munster and Osperys fighting it out for the last spot, Munster are still a work in progress and in the long run I think they will edge Osperys. Your deluding yourself if you think Osperys will be a force this season.

Digifriendly

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

I find it laughable how people think Osperys are automatically a top 4 after these two games, I saw nothing from them vs Connacht to make me think they will be there about at the end of the season and if it wasn't for there superior fitness due to Connacht's lack of a pre season I dont think they would have won. The reality is its between Osperys,Munster,Cardiff for the 4th place and the last 2 will occupy 5th and 6th. Welsh teams usually make decent starts and people start talking them up but as the season goes on the greater depth of the Irish squad's + Glasgow reigns through, Scarlets last year where the perfect example of this. Im pretty sure you will see Cardiff emplode by the end of the season which will leave Munster and Osperys fighting it out for the last spot, Munster are still a work in progress and in the long run I think they will edge Osperys. Your deluding yourself if you think Osperys will be a force this season.

Ospreys are a far better side than last year. They have in Rhys Webb one of the best scrum halves in the NH and they have pace to burn in their backline as they showed in Galway. Sam Davies is second choice to Dan Biggar but would walk onto any other Pro 12 side. What Connacht would give for him at OH. Bradley Davies has added bulk to their pack and they have a top class back row. Their canadian No. 8 was outstanding in Galway (bar YC) and Tipuric is IMHO a British Lion in the making. Would be very surprised if they did not make Top 4. I accept the point about depth of squad but it is Europe where this is most exposed and I predict Ospreys to make Top 4 in Pro 12.

Cathalthesmart

Digifriendly wrote: »

Ospreys are a far better side than last year. They have in Rhys Webb one of the best scrum halves in the NH and they have pace to burn in their backline as they showed in Galway. Sam Davies is second choice to Dan Biggar but would walk onto any other Pro 12 side. What Connacht would give for him at OH. Bradley Davies has added bulk to their pack and they have a top class back row. Their canadian No. 8 was outstanding in Galway (bar YC) and Tipuric is IMHO a British Lion in the making. Would be very surprised if they did not make Top 4. I accept the point about depth of squad but it is Europe where this is most exposed and I predict Ospreys to make Top 4 in Pro 12.

The depth of Welsh teams is always exposed in the pro12 and when they lose a few games and there heads go down they emplode. Last season people where saying after the first few rounds there was a Welsh resurgence and in the end it was a disgraceful season, these teams don't realise it's 22 round league not 5. Rhys Webb is not the best scrum half in the league, that's just the typical Welsh hype. Murray who is of a similar age has achieved far more and done a lot more than Webb so it's quite funny to see how people think he is better. The truth is in Ospreys 3 opening games they have played 3 teams that aren't in the mix for a top 4 finish, when they do then we can test there credentials.

b.gud

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

The depth of Welsh teams is always exposed in the pro12 and when they lose a few games and there heads go down they emplode. Last season people where saying after the first few rounds there was a Welsh resurgence and in the end it was a disgraceful season, these teams don't realise it's 22 round league not 5. Rhys Webb is not the best scrum half in the league, that's just the typical Welsh hype. Murray who is of a similar age has achieved far more and done a lot more than Webb so it's quite funny to see how people think he is better. The truth is in Ospreys 3 opening games they have played 3 teams that aren't in the mix for a top 4 finish, when they do then we can test there credentials.

Can't believe I missed an entire round of games, maybe I should cut down on my drinking :pac:

irishbucsfan

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

The depth of Welsh teams is always exposed in the pro12 and when they lose a few games and there heads go down they emplode. Last season people where saying after the first few rounds there was a Welsh resurgence and in the end it was a disgraceful season, these teams don't realise it's 22 round league not 5. Rhys Webb is not the best scrum half in the league, that's just the typical Welsh hype. Murray who is of a similar age has achieved far more and done a lot more than Webb so it's quite funny to see how people think he is better. The truth is in Ospreys 3 opening games they have played 3 teams that aren't in the mix for a top 4 finish, when they do then we can test there credentials.

Except for you know... when the Ospreys won the league

Buer

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

The depth of Welsh teams is always exposed in the pro12 and when they lose a few games and there heads go down they emplode. Last season people where saying after the first few rounds there was a Welsh resurgence and in the end it was a disgraceful season, these teams don't realise it's 22 round league not 5.

Where are you getting this from?

The Scarlets were the only Welsh team to not stink out the place at the start of last season. People sat up and took notice of them and rightly so. Anyone would if a team wins their first 6 games including fixtures against Ulster, Glasgow (away), Leinster and Munster. They then collapsed once the internationals came back into the other teams following the RWC.

The other Welsh teams were p*ss and people were calling it from the start. Ospreys lost their opening three games. Cardiff won 1 from their first 8. Dragons won 1 from their first 4.

Digifriendly

Totally disagree re Rhys Webb and I'm Irish not Welsh. He was a class apart at the Sportsground. BTW Ospreys have won 4 league titles equalledonly by Leinster.

wp_rathead

rhys webb is easily* best scrum half in the the NH

*well probably

Buer

Indeed. Murray is class but based on their respective form over the past 18 months, Webb is ahead of him. He's playing superb stuff and was excellent against NZ over the summer.

irishbucsfan

There's a fair amount of talent at 9 in Wales now. Both the Cardiff 9s looked good and Tomos Williams is still only 21. Lloyd Williams really helped them steady the ship off the bench as well.

The depth at half back for both Cardiff and Ospreys should make them both a lot more consistent than before if their packs keep performing. I think Scarlets will struggle in that area.

Cathalthesmart

Digifriendly wrote: »

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

Totally disagree re Rhys Webb and I'm Irish not Welsh. He was a class apart at the Sportsground. BTW Ospreys have won 4 league titles equalledonly by Leinster.

How did Osperys do last year?

Cathalthesmart

wp_rathead wrote: »

rhys webb is easily* best scrum half in the the NH

*well probably

Murray has won 2 6N a Magners league, been to 2 world cups and won a Lions series. Webb has done nothing to warrant being considered better and if he was the so called best scrum half in the NH he would have started ahead of GD in the 6N

Cathalthesmart

b.gud wrote: »

Can't believe I missed an entire round of games, maybe I should cut down on my drinking :pac:

I was referring to after 3 rounds, unless the next round of games are cancelled they will have played 3 matches against Zebre,Connacht,Treviso.

Cathalthesmart

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Except for you know... when the Ospreys won the league

When Osperys won the league Wales where Grand Slam champs, that's how long ago it was.

Adbrowne

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

How did Osperys do last year?

A year when they were missing 13-14 players from pre season and the first 5-6 weeks of the season because of the RWC. Leinster finished 5th the season before.

Digifriendly

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

Digifriendly wrote: »

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

Totally disagree re Rhys Webb and I'm Irish not Welsh. He was a class apart at the Sportsground. BTW Ospreys have won 4 league titles equalledonly by Leinster.

How did Osperys do last year?

I've already said that Ospreys are a far better side than last season when Rhys Webb was not available for a good part of the season. If you can't see a world class scrum half then 'there are none so blind as those that will not see.'

Cathalthesmart

Just to defend myself here, I do think Osperys can do damage however they are more of a dark horse than a contender. Ulster,Glasgow,Leinster are a level above them and will be the main contenders leaving 1 spot open for Munster,Osperys,Cardiff. Beating the two worst the two worst teams in the league and a Connacht team without a pre season doesn't automatically make you title challengers, compare how Glasgow played to Osperys poler opposites. I can't believe this is even a debate as to who's the best 9 in the NH, Webb hasn't done nearly enough to warrant being the best 9 in the NH. Guess we will see who is the 9 for the Lions, all I know is Murray is a much better player than he was in 2013 yet he made the match day squad twice and as of now Philips is retired and he has overtaken Youngs so a player who has played 6 6N matches doesn't really have much of a case of being better, just hype like most Welsh players, same when people where saying Scarlets have the best back line in Europe, same team that are stuck on 0 points.

molloyjh

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

Murray has won 2 6N a Magners league, been to 2 world cups and won a Lions series. Webb has done nothing to warrant being considered better and if he was the so called best scrum half in the NH he would have started ahead of GD in the 6N

Wow, Murray did all that by himself. Now that's impressive.

Given that rugby is a team sport you simply can't compare the two the way you are trying to there.

Cathalthesmart

molloyjh wrote: »

Wow, Murray did all that by himself. Now that's impressive.

Given that rugby is a team sport you simply can't compare the two the way you are trying to there.

What has Webb done so? You know, apart from being injured?

Buer

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

Murray has won 2 6N a Magners league, been to 2 world cups and won a Lions series. Webb has done nothing to warrant being considered better and if he was the so called best scrum half in the NH he would have started ahead of GD in the 6N

You're joking, right? Webb suffered a serious injury ahead of the RWC and spend 5 months out of the game. As soon as he could walk he was back into the Welsh set up.

He made his first appearance in over 5 months coming off the bench for 20 minutes for the Ospreys the day after Wales played their second game of the 6N. It underlines just how highly rated he is that he was back in the starting team later in the championship despite still getting match fit.

irishbucsfan

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

What has Webb done so? You know, apart from being injured?

Played extremely well at an elite level. Using team honours to rate individual players is a complete waste of time, by that logic Sergio Parisse is about as good as Andy Powell

molloyjh

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

What has Webb done so? You know, apart from being injured?

Played rugby very well. For example as scrum halves go he's a pretty prolific try scorer. Given an ounce of space and the guy is deadly. And he's shown that at all levels of the game now. His passing game is good. Even his kicking can be quality. I remember one game where he set up a try with a chip in behind the defence while being tackled.

Cathalthesmart

Buer wrote: »

You're joking, right? Webb suffered a serious injury ahead of the RWC and spend 5 months out of the game. As soon as he could walk he was back into the Welsh set up.

He made his first appearance in over 5 months coming off the bench for 20 minutes for the Ospreys the day after Wales played their second game of the 6N. It underlines just how highly rated he is that he was back in the starting team later in the championship despite still getting match fit.

Just to clarify, it's not that I don't rate him. I would have him in the Lions squad for the NZ tour. I'm just saying it's laughable to say he is better than Murray when he has done very little to warrant it. In truth, the two are very different scrum halfs so it's hard to compare them. Webb has potential to overtake him in time but has he done enough right now in his 22 appearances for Wales to warrant being number 1 in the NH? Not a chance!

former total

Webb is better than Murray

Felix Jones is God

Murray is better than Webb

This is how we do it right?