Can employer question cert?

MILF

Hi all,

If you have a cert for work from the GP, can your employer question it? I had tried to get a day off and now I actually am sick & have a cert, but I don't want my employer to think I pulled a sickie - I'm genuinely sick!

Stheno

They can. In extreme cases they can require you to attend a company doctor if they feel your illness is not genuine and your doctor is giving out unwarranted certs

PopTarts

Oh come on.

Any employer is going to be suspicious when an employee goes sick on a day that was refused to be taken as leave.

JinkyJackson

You don't have to lie on here, we don't know you. You're employer would be foolish not to question your cert to be honest.

livedadream

Yeap, they can and can send you to the company doctor, who can ring your doctor and ask.

its a pain in the hole and a waste of time but if your employer things your taking the piss then they will.

its suspicious but it does happen ie being sick on a day you had requested off.

did you end up going to the event you were requesting the day off for?

2RockMountain

livedadream wrote: »

Yeap, they can and can send you to the company doctor, who can ring your doctor and ask.

They can't really do that for a 1 or 2 day illness. That would only apply for a long, drawn out cases of chronic conditions. By the time they've contacted the company doctor, you're back at work, fit and healthy.

I'd be more concerned about a loss of trust in a case like this, if it appears to the line manager that the employee is taking the pi$$.

livedadream

2RockMountain wrote: »

They can't really do that for a 1 or 2 day illness. That would only apply for a long, drawn out cases of chronic conditions. By the time they've contacted the company doctor, you're back at work, fit and healthy.

I'd be more concerned about a loss of trust in a case like this, if it appears to the line manager that the employee is taking the pi$$.

ive sent people to the company doctor when they havnt been sick.

when the volcano went off in Iceland i had people calling in sick that were on holidays and they all got referred to the company doctor, yes its a waste of time, but stops it becoming a habit.

if the OP has a history of 1 or 2 day illness or even of calling in sick after requesting time off i would defo be sending them to the Company Dr.

its not like the Dr is gunna tell me whats wrong... just weather it was a warranted day off or not.

Mrs OBumble

One option is to ring your employer and offer to attend a doctor of their choice instead of your regular doctor: it acknowledges that you can see the potential issue, and reassures the employer.

And if you're genuinely sick, and doctor is a doctor.

2RockMountain

livedadream wrote: »

its not like the Dr is gunna tell me whats wrong... just weather it was a warranted day off or not.

How can your doctor diagnose what state your employee was in last week?

livedadream

2RockMountain wrote: »

How can your doctor diagnose what state your employee was in last week?

they cant but they are privy to stuff i'm not,

they are allowed ring the persons GP and go

Hey jim you had mary in last week, what was wrong with her?

ah the usual just a bug she'll be grand

or

nah mate she rang in saying she was sick and could she get a cert for work, i didnt actually see her... she mentioned something about a wedding though.

or

yeah, she has that galloping gonorrhea or something so she needed to take a tablet all grand now though threw her out a script and sent her back to work the next day


to be fair the story bangs of suspicion, being sick on a day you requested off happens,its rare but it happens, being too sick to go to work? maybe? again slashing the odds, going to the doctor for one day of illness slashing the odds even lower...

but who goes to the doctor for one day unless you have a guilty conscience? or a pre existing condition that requires you to get meds only the doctor can give you?

_Brian

MILF wrote: »

Hi all,

If you have a cert for work from the GP, can your employer question it? I had tried to get a day off and now I actually am sick & have a cert, but I don't want my employer to think I pulled a sickie - I'm genuinely sick!

It's a kind sticky thing.

Usually employers accept certs at face value. However over time a doctor who hands out certs on a questionable frequency looses their credibility. One place I worked identified one GP who they weren't happy with and refused to accept certs from that particular GP.

Then cases like you describe happen where annual leave is rejected and the employee turns up with a cert, it's very hard not to think the doctor has been duped into giving a cert for the day.

Also remember that a cert doesn't prevent you being identified as absent for performance management reasons and being given a negative rating or warnings as a result.
A cert explains your absence but doesn't excuse it.

TheDoc

I would also think it weird you have a cert for one days leave. Most places I've worked require a cert for more then two consecutive days sick leave. Getting a cert for one day is odd. Although I guess you probably got it to try mitigate the company thinking you were spoofin.

2RockMountain

livedadream wrote: »

they cant but they are privy to stuff i'm not,

they are allowed ring the persons GP and go

Hey jim you had mary in last week, what was wrong with her?

ah the usual just a bug she'll be grand

or

nah mate she rang in saying she was sick and could she get a cert for work, i didnt actually see her... she mentioned something about a wedding though.

or

yeah, she has that galloping gonorrhea or something so she needed to take a tablet all grand now though threw her out a script and sent her back to work the next day

You'll get options 1 and 3 by reading the cert presented in the first place. As for option 2, do dodgy GPs really tell other GPs they give out certs like smarties?

I still don't see the point of sending the person to see a company GP in a case like this where the injury/condition has gone away.

livedadream

2RockMountain wrote: »

You'll get options 1 and 3 by reading the cert presented in the first place. As for option 2, do dodgy GPs really tell other GPs they give out certs like smarties?

Certs just say medical illness these days they dont say mary has galloping gonorrhea and wont be at work.

it been like that for years, its a privacy and sensitivity issue.

ie Mary doenst want me to know she has depression or had a miscarriage or has crohns disease

not everyone likes everyone knowing their business, and we've had threads here before where peoples illness or bereavement has been made public thought poor management without their permission.

your supposed to take is as a professional has given the opinion she is off sick, the reason doesnt matter.

2RockMountain wrote: »

I still don't see the point of sending the person to see a company GP in a case like this where the injury/condition has gone away.

not necessarily if i think someone is having a hard time and has missed a good few days work for the odd monday or day after pay day off ill send them to the Dr. patterns are very rarely a coincidence, for example is mary is off or late or sick every friday after payday its a sign she either partying too hard after getting paid and needs to cop on, has a drink problem, or as i learnt the hard was was getting the ****e kicked outta her when she wasnt hand over the pay to her abusive husband.

she was referred to the Company Dr, he was able to refer her to get the help she needed i didnt find out until she got out of the relationship and took some time off. it was none of my business why she was out of work, just that she was out, but i also have a responsibility to make sure shes okay.

2RockMountain

livedadream wrote: »

Certs just say medical illness these days they dont say mary has galloping gonorrhea and wont be at work.

it been like that for years, its a privacy and sensitivity issue.

ie Mary doenst want me to know she has depression or had a miscarriage or has crohns disease

not everyone likes everyone knowing their business, and we've had threads here before where peoples illness or bereavement has been made public thought poor management without their permission.

your supposed to take is as a professional has given the opinion she is off sick, the reason doesnt matter.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? If you're 'supposed to take the professional opinion', then why are you sending the employee off to see yet another doctor?

livedadream wrote: »

not necessarily if i think someone is having a hard time and has missed a good few days work for the odd monday or day after pay day off ill send them to the Dr. patterns are very rarely a coincidence, for example is mary is off or late or sick every friday after payday its a sign she either partying too hard after getting paid and needs to cop on, has a drink problem, or as i learnt the hard was was getting the ****e kicked outta her when she wasnt hand over the pay to her abusive husband.

she was referred to the Company Dr, he was able to refer her to get the help she needed i didnt find out until she got out of the relationship and took some time off. it was none of my business why she was out of work, just that she was out, but i also have a responsibility to make sure shes okay.

Yes, I could see the need for this if there is a trend of absences, but that's not really the scenario that the OP was talking about.

P_1

livedadream wrote: »

ive sent people to the company doctor when they havnt been sick.

when the volcano went off in Iceland i had people calling in sick that were on holidays and they all got referred to the company doctor, yes its a waste of time, but stops it becoming a habit.

if the OP has a history of 1 or 2 day illness or even of calling in sick after requesting time off i would defo be sending them to the Company Dr.

its not like the Dr is gunna tell me whats wrong... just weather it was a warranted day off or not.

As an aside, why would they call in sick? Surely an "I'm stranded in [insert city] due to the volcano and can't come in" would have sufficed?

livedadream

2RockMountain wrote: »

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? If you're 'supposed to take the professional opinion', then why are you sending the employee off to see yet another doctor?

yes it is a contradiction, but its one of those things,

i once worked in a factory, huge sick leave abuse, noticed a pattern in the certificates, they were all from the same Ds' Surgery, turned out the receptionist was issuing certs to her buddies... and one of the GP were issuing certs over the phone..

HUGE issue, as a HR professional you are trained to question everything.

there are not many GPS that if you sit in front of and say i was off work sick with this bug can you give me a note, not many will say no.

2RockMountain wrote: »

Yes, I could see the need for this if there is a trend of absences, but that's not really the scenario that the OP was talking about.

we dont know the whole scenario the OP is talking about ,they have only said they applied for a day off, were refused and then got sick and took the day off.

if she worked for me and had a few occurrences of this id be hauling her in and questioning the cert,
back to work meetings work because some people find it harder to lie to their bosses face than over the phone. if your asked to explain your absence it makes you think twice about abusing the system. (in general obviously there are still people who have no difficulty with it.)

livedadream

P_1 wrote: »

As an aside, why would they call in sick? Surely an "I'm stranded in [insert city] due to the volcano and can't come in" would have sufficed?

not to derail the thread but they applied for hols didnt get them, swooped shifts for three days so they could still go to some festival, called in stick when they got stuck.

i never would have known but someone ratted them out...

had great fun asking them were they feeling better and would they mind going to the company doctor to confirm they were fit to come back to work. (worked in food service had to be safe you know, a week off with a bug is very serious)

Company Dr rang their GP who admitted to not seeing them and issuing a note over the phone.

They eventually came clean.
stupid but it happens.

ive had people call in sick and show up at the same wedding as im at, magically feeling better, drinking away...

you will always get caught in a lie.

Stealthfins

Back in the 90's the work place was more relaxed and easy going.

We're now dealing with a lot of cut throat Celtic tiger brats,they're climbing on oneanother's shoulders to get a promotion.

They're practically married to the job,and the prcks on big salaries try to make people underneath them work extra hours without pay.

It's because the knobs can't bare watching ye leave early,while they're licking ass and shopping everyone for a pat on the back.
Absolutely disgusting behavior.

WHY WOULDN'T THE KNOBS GIVE YOU THE DAY OFF IN THE FIRST PLACE ?

I see this new American dream work ethics taking over here in Ireland.

Listen ladies and gents,it's time workers take their power back and stop putting up with sht.

livedadream

Stealthfins wrote: »

Back in the 90's the work place was more relaxed and easy going.

We're now dealing with a lot of cut throat Celtic tiger brats,they're climbing on oneanother's shoulders to get a promotion.

They're practically married to the job,and the prcks on big salaries try to make people underneath them work extra hours without pay.

It's because the knobs can't bare watching ye leave early,while they're licking ass and shopping everyone for a pat on the back.
Absolutely disgusting behavior.

WHY WOULDN'T THE KNOBS GIVE YOU THE DAY OFF IN THE FIRST PLACE ?

I see this new American dream work ethics taking over here in Ireland.

Listen ladies and gents,it's time workers take their power back and stop putting up with sht.

that escalated quickly... :P:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Steve

livedadream wrote: »

there are not many GPS that if you sit in front of and say i was off work sick with this bug can you give me a note, not many will say no.

This.

If a doctor certifies someone as 'not sick' and it turns out they go to work and die (or get really ill) then they are in a lot of trouble. Most will err on the side of 'unfit for work' when faced with a choice.

livedadream

Steve wrote: »

This.

If a doctor certifies someone as 'not sick' and it turns out they go to work and die (or get really ill) then they are in a lot of trouble. Most will err on the side of 'unfit for work' when faced with a choice.

most will sign off for a quiet life too.

which is unethical and can cause chaos in a small business.

P_1

livedadream wrote: »

not to derail the thread but they applied for hols didnt get them, swooped shifts for three days so they could still go to some festival, called in stick when they got stuck.

i never would have known but someone ratted them out...

had great fun asking them were they feeling better and would they mind going to the company doctor to confirm they were fit to come back to work. (worked in food service had to be safe you know, a week off with a bug is very serious)

Fair enough, a bit of stupidity caught them out so. When something like that happens honesty is the best policy.

TheDoc

Stealthfins wrote: »

Back in the 90's the work place was more relaxed and easy going.

And it also allowed companies and organisations to get slack, that attitude attributed to our overbloated public sector running horrendous inefficiencies. Every economy needs a recession per decade, to trim the fat and get rid of the waste, relating to people, poor procedures and inefficiencies.

We're now dealing with a lot of cut throat Celtic tiger brats,they're climbing on one another's shoulders to get a promotion.

We are not dealing with actual proffesionals. Ireland received a massive influx of multinatioal corps in the boom, and with it drove the requirement for professionals. IT, Technology, Medicine, Scientists, Finance etc.

In fairness you have made a rubbish generalisation there, so the onus is on your expand. I'm not going to try interpret that dribble any further.

They're practically married to the job,and the prcks on big salaries try to make people underneath them work extra hours without pay.

the only priks in that situation is the people who drone out long hours, thinking that it impresses someone. That is the bad part of the American culture that has come over. Marry that with Irish peoples inability to manage confrontation and actually get what they are worth, you get this weird situation with people working crazy long hours for no overtime, under some false idea that it's impressing someone. But thats an individuals problem, its nothing to do with "the big salaries".

It's because the knobs can't bare watching ye leave early,while they're licking ass and shopping everyone for a pat on the back.
Absolutely disgusting behavior.

Again more dribble and nonsense. Flags get raised with me on my team when I see members staying really late. It flags to me they are unable to manage their workload and have issues with prioritisation and organisation.

WHY WOULDN'T THE KNOBS GIVE YOU THE DAY OFF IN THE FIRST PLACE ?

Careful, at this point, your tinfoil hat has caught fire

I see this new American dream work ethics taking over here in Ireland.

Nothing really American about it, sure working longer and harder and being more accessible outside normal hours. But don't be fooled thinking in general the American culture do this for free.

Listen ladies and gents,it's time workers take their power back and stop putting up with sht.

Look forward to your organised march, please let us know how you get on and make sure to share the Facebook page for "takin bak da powa"

2RockMountain

TheDoc wrote: »

Every economy needs a recession per decade, to trim the fat and get rid of the waste, relating to people, poor procedures and inefficiencies.

Welcome back, Margaret, how was your time in hell?

livedadream wrote: »

most will sign off for a quiet life too.

which is unethical and can cause chaos in a small business.

It's more than just unethical, and it affects more than just small businesses.

livedadream wrote: »

we dont know the whole scenario the OP is talking about ,they have only said they applied for a day off, were refused and then got sick and took the day off.

if she worked for me and had a few occurrences of this id be hauling her in and questioning the cert,
back to work meetings work because some people find it harder to lie to their bosses face than over the phone. if your asked to explain your absence it makes you think twice about abusing the system. (in general obviously there are still people who have no difficulty with it.)

All the actions you describe related to multiple incidences or ongoing trends. There is no indication from the OP that this is the case here, so your response is over the top.

But I really do hope that you have the brains not to ask for or listen to any medical details or explanations from employees as part of back-to-work meetings. Unless you are an occupational health professional, you are in no position to ask employees about any medical details relating to their absences.

Avatar MIA

2RockMountain wrote: »

Welcome back, Margaret, how was your time in hell?

Worst Gif ever

Not sure about the OP's employer (did they return to post) but I don't believe them,

Stealthfins

TheDoc wrote:

Look forward to your organised march, please let us know how you get on and make sure to share the Facebook page for "takin bak da powa"

Ah no it's grand,carry on with the herd and march on.

My post was a once off and I had forgotten about it until I seen it's still going on.

Obviously my rant effected you more than any other poster.

Keep up the good work and you're doing a great job.