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rent bouncing back

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  • 07-07-2016 6:38am
    #1
    AvonEnniskerry
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭


    Hi I usually pay my rent by standing order. However the last 2 months it has bounced back. My landlord had not contacted me in relation to a change of account. He lives in Australia and I pay into an Irish account. I'll have to contact him today... I can prove the payments were completed on my side... Am I liable to pay it back in full even though it's not my mistake and I've had to approach him??
    I know the answer is yes but I'm just chancing my arm.


    Edit: it just annoys me because he's failed to be a decent landlord and now I've to chase him up for payment!


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    #2
    aido79
    Registered Users Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭aido79


    AvonEnniskerry wrote: »
    Hi I usually pay my rent by standing order. However the last 2 months it has bounced back. My landlord had not contacted me in relation to a change of account. He lives in Australia and I pay into an Irish account. I'll have to contact him today... I can prove the payments were completed on my side... Am I liable to pay it back in full even though it's not my mistake and I've had to approach him??
    I know the answer is yes but I'm just chancing my arm.


    Edit: it just annoys me because he's failed to be a decent landlord and now I've to chase him up for payment!

    Why do you instantly aussume he is a bad landlord and it is not a mistake on behalf of the bank?
    Are you sure you have his account details correct?


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    #3
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #4
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Yes you are liable and ideally should put the bounced rent in a separate account so that it's there when the landlord comes looking for it.

    Incidentally are you forwarding 20% direct to revenue? Knowing that your landlord is abroad and paying into his account would indicate that he doesn't have an Irish agent and therefore you should be paying 20% of the rent to revenue.


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    #5
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Why would you think you don't have to pay your rent?
    Have you asked your bank about the problem?


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    #6
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,966 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    OP, he might have died and the bank frozen his accounts. Just so you're aware ...


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    #7
    AvonEnniskerry
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭AvonEnniskerry


    aido79 wrote:
    Why do you instantly aussume he is a bad landlord and it is not a mistake on behalf of the bank? Are you sure you have his account details correct?


    Because I've been in this accommodation for over 4 years. So experience tells me that.
    He is not dead, his brother lives beside us.

    I have not been paying anything to revenue. Would have assumed that's his problem. Not mine... But file a return every year.

    My bank can't confirm why or where the money is coming from as its across banks and returned with no details... His bank have stated if they were to have taken control of the property that the rent would not have stopped...


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    #8
    AvonEnniskerry
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭AvonEnniskerry


    Tatum Agreeable Flowerbed wrote:
    Why would you think you don't have to pay your rent? Have you asked your bank about the problem?


    Because it's not my mistake. My rent has been coming out. Transaction competed each time. Though it's being returned. I am also aware that I was chancing my arm here but don't see why I should have to backdate their error


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    #9
    AvonEnniskerry
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭AvonEnniskerry


    athtrasna wrote:
    Yes you are liable and ideally should put the bounced rent in a separate account so that it's there when the landlord comes looking for it.


    Have been doing this... And contacted landlord...


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    #10
    El Chapo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 267 ✭✭El Chapo


    athtrasna wrote: »
    Yes you are liable and ideally should put the bounced rent in a separate account so that it's there when the landlord comes looking for it.

    Incidentally are you forwarding 20% direct to revenue? Knowing that your landlord is abroad and paying into his account would indicate that he doesn't have an Irish agent and therefore you should be paying 20% of the rent to revenue.
    You want the tenant to sort out the landlord's tax affairs as well as chasing him/her up to actually pay their rent?

    Good Lord..


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    #11
    BreadnBuddha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    AvonEnniskerry wrote: »
    Because it's not my mistake. My rent has been coming out. Transaction competed each time. Though it's being returned. I am also aware that I was chancing my arm here but don't see why I should have to backdate their error

    Paying the rent you owe is not backdating their error. Would you ever cop on to yourself!


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    #12
    testicles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,198 ✭✭✭testicles


    This post has been deleted.


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    #13
    davo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 3,318 ✭✭✭davo2001


    A lot of people on very high horses in here, sorting out the landlords tax affairs? Get real FFS!

    OP, it's the landlords problem, not yours. Keep the money aside, he will come for it sooner or later.


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    #14
    SB_Part2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭SB_Part2


    Unfortunately OP you will still have to pay the rent and it's up to you as well to pay the 20% to revenue.

    I got caught out with this once. Same as you my landlord lived in Austrailia but i paid into his Irish Bank account. It started bouncing and when I came here for advice I was made aware of the 20% I should have been giving to revenue. I left shortly afterwards because I had enough things to be worrying about.


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    #15
    Boater123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭Boater123


    El Chapo wrote: »
    You want the tenant to sort out the landlord's tax affairs as well as chasing him/her up to actually pay their rent?

    Good Lord..

    Athtrasna gave good advice, if the LL has no agent in Ireland collecting the rent and the tenant pays rent directly to a LL living abroad, then that's what they're supposed to do.


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    #16
    AvonEnniskerry
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭AvonEnniskerry


    testicles wrote:
    This post has been deleted.


    This is mad... Am I supposed to be deducting it from my total rent or adding it on? Not much of an incentive to rent either way. I'm pretty sure if I deducted it I'd be kicked out on my arse.
    I've rented previously with another Australian landlord and never had problems contacting him etc.


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    #17
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    AvonEnniskerry wrote: »
    This is mad... Am I supposed to be deducting it from my total rent or adding it on? Not much of an incentive to rent either way. I'm pretty sure if I deducted it I'd be kicked out on my arse.
    I've rented previously with another Australian landlord and never had problems contacting him etc.

    You are supposed to be deducting from the total rent and sending it to revenue.

    It does seem a bit mad to me too but its the way it is.


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    #18
    Toots
    Administrators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,920 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Toots


    Have you tried asking his brother to get in touch with him?


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    #19
    AvonEnniskerry
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭AvonEnniskerry


    Toots wrote:
    Have you tried asking his brother to get in touch with him?

    Done that this morning... It's just a waiting game now...


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    #20
    StupidLikeAFox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Maybe his bank account is full and can't take anymore money


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    #21
    davo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 3,318 ✭✭✭davo2001


    StupidLikeAFox wrote: »
    Maybe his bank account is full and can't take anymore money

    Hate it when that happens :pac: :pac:


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    #22
    bren2002
    Registered Users Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭bren2002


    While technically you're responsible for the 20%. In practice I don't think revenue are actively perusing tenants for it.


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    #23
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    bren2002 wrote: »
    While technically you're responsible for the 20%. In practice I don't think revenue are actively perusing tenants for it.

    They certainly are and they certainly do.


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    #24
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    davo2001 wrote: »
    Username checks out. j/k

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html#section21
    What If Your Landlord Is Not Resident In The State?

    If your landlord resides outside the Republic of Ireland (the State) and you pay rent directly to them or to their bank account either in the State or abroad, you must deduct income tax at the standard rate of tax (currently 20%) from the gross rents payable.

    Failure to deduct tax may leave you liable for the tax that should have been deducted.


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    #25
    confusedguy1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 27 ✭confusedguy1


    AvonEnniskerry wrote: »
    Because it's not my mistake. My rent has been coming out. Transaction competed each time. Though it's being returned. I am also aware that I was chancing my arm here but don't see why I should have to backdate their error

    Your attitude really angers me - this consistant "sure feck the landlord, I'll save what I can from him/her". I had a similiar attitude from a tenant I am currently pursuing via the PRTB for unpaid rent, bills and missing goods. She claimed that she lodged cash to my account and "the bank must have misplaced the money". I was away travelling at the time and only noticed it at a later date. She then claimed that as she was not informed straight away that she wasn't obliged to pay anything.

    You agree to rent somewhere, you pay your rent. Cop on to yourself.


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    #26
    Timmyr
    Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭Timmyr


    davo2001 wrote: »
    A lot of people on very high horses in here, sorting out the landlords tax affairs? Get real FFS!

    OP, it's the landlords problem, not yours. Keep the money aside, he will come for it sooner or later.

    I'm afraid it has very little to do with the horses, it's the law.

    It most certainly is the tenants problem, you should notify revenue asap and they may be lenient, if you are found out you will be responsible for paying 20% of the rent you have paid so far.

    Ignorantia juris non excusat


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    #27
    Boater123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭Boater123


    According to the revenue, the tenant is "obliged" to make the deduction, but are not deemed "a chargeable person".

    Where rents are paid directly to a person whose usual place of abode is outside the State, the tenant is obliged to deduct income tax at the standard rate fromthe payment (section 1041 TCA 1997).

    2.1 Tenant:
    The tenant should deduct tax from the rent at the standard rate and
    account for this tax to Revenue. Strictly, the tenant should account for
    the tax in question immediately after it is deducted.

    Note:
    1. The obligation to deduct tax on payment of rents does not
    make the tenant a chargeable person (section 959A TCA
    1997

    2.2 Residential lettings
    In the case of residential lettings, tenants may not be aware of their
    obligation to deduct tax. This can occur either because the tenants are
    unaware that the landlord is resident abroad or because the tenants are
    unaware of the obligation to deduct tax when making payment to such
    a landlord.
    In this scenario, the tenant should be asked to provide the following
    details as regards the landlord:
     Name and address
     Details of the bank account into which rent is paid (name and
    address of the bank and the account number into which the
    payments are made)
     Details of the rents paid to the non-resident landlord for all years
    for which the landlord was resident abroad.
    An assessment can be entered on the landlord, at his or her foreign
    address, and where necessary powers of attachment under section 1002
    TCA 1997 can be used to enforce collection of the tax due.

    The tenant should be advised to deduct tax from all future
    payments to the landlord.


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    #28
    Boater123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭Boater123


    intheclouds wrote: »
    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html#section21

    Only read this now, seems to conflict the other guidelines given by the revenue.


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    #29
    Timmyr
    Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭Timmyr


    Boater123 wrote: »
    According to the revenue, the tenant is "obliged" to make the deduction, but are not deemed "a chargeable person".[/I]


    Yes, because in theory it is not costing the tenant


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    #30
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,474 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    I'd suggest the money bounced back from your standing orders should be set aside to cover any liability you may have with revenue.

    Is the landlord's account with an Irish bank or a foreign bank ?

    It might be better to come to some agreement - a written one, updating the lease, having his brother appointed as an agent to pay the rent to. This should take you out of the loop regarding the 20% due to revenue. (This is deducted from the gross rental amount, landlord gets 80%, revenue get 20%)

    It would take more informtion and the input of a tax advisor to be clear on what the right thing to do is. Is the landlord permanently living abroad or is it short term? He could possibly still be tax resident in Ireland if he spends a minimum number of days in the country.

    I'm not an accountant or a tax advisor but I'd be happer in your situation if I was paying rent to an Irish resident agent so any potential problems would not be mine.


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    #31
    aido79
    Registered Users Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭aido79


    AvonEnniskerry wrote: »
    Because I've been in this accommodation for over 4 years. So experience tells me that.
    He is not dead, his brother lives beside us.

    I have not been paying anything to revenue. Would have assumed that's his problem. Not mine... But file a return every year.

    My bank can't confirm why or where the money is coming from as its across banks and returned with no details... His bank have stated if they were to have taken control of the property that the rent would not have stopped...

    Ok. You didn't give the full story in your OP but I still think you need to get in touch with your landlord to find out what the problem is.

    From a revenue point of view it is your responsibility to deduct 20% of the rent as your landlord is living abroad. You are then supposed to forward this to revenue. I know it's ridiculous but that's how it is supposed to work. If revenue look into it they will chase you for the money not your landlord.


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