rent bouncing back

TheDoc

Separately on the tax point, that is a nonsense.

Some grave assumptions here that the landlord is not managing his own tax affairs, or has something in place where Revenue are receiving their relevant fees. Incredible that the first respones here are "YOU NEED TO PAY THIS PAY REVENUE".

First port of call here, if the OP cares(fully understand if he/she doesnt) is to ask the landlord if they have an arrangement for the Revenue segment of rent. And if the OP has been living there four years while this landlord is abroad, either the landlord has his **** together, or the OP doesnt care(which is perfectly fine in my book)

Timmyr

TheDoc wrote: »

Separately on the tax point, that is a nonsense.

Some grave assumptions here that the landlord is not managing his own tax affairs, or has something in place where Revenue are receiving their relevant fees. Incredible that the first respones here are "YOU NEED TO PAY THIS PAY REVENUE".

First port of call here, if the OP cares(fully understand if he/she doesnt) is to ask the landlord if they have an arrangement for the Revenue segment of rent. And if the OP has been living there four years while this landlord is abroad, either the landlord has his **** together, or the OP doesnt care(which is perfectly fine in my book)

Wow the amount of people on here that are ignorant to our tax laws amazes me, this is not the landlords responsibility to manage!!

While it may be perfectly fine in your book, I'm going to assume revenue agents are reading a different book

Timmyr

Believe me OP this is an issue you should try to sort immediately.

I am an Accountant (ACCA) and Tax Advisor (AITI) if you need any info feel free to PM me

tina1040

How are you supposed to know where your landlord lives? Or if they move abroad during the tenancy?

It's all very well saying it's the tenant's responsibility but how does that work in the real world?

I've been a landlord (in Ireland) for many years and for privacy and safety reasons I have never given my home address to a tenant. My tenant's would not know if I moved out of Ireland once the payments were still going to the same bank account as always.

TheDoc

Timmyr wrote: »

Wow the amount of people on here that are ignorant to our tax laws amazes me, this is not the landlords responsibility to manage!!

While it may be perfectly fine in your book, I'm going to assume revenue agents are reading a different book

They can read whatever book they want to be honest.

To insinuate that a tenant is responsible for a third parties tax affairs is nonsense.

Appreciate your reading the letter of the law, would fully appreciate any sort of sources indicating where a tenant was actually found liable for this.

It's a different matter where Revenue get in touch, tenant advises landlord, and it gets sorted out.

Again, I'm not disputing what your saying is the law, but the practicalities and process around it I doubt is as black and white as some are making out.

intheclouds

TheDoc wrote: »

They can read whatever book they want to be honest.

To insinuate that a tenant is responsible for a third parties tax affairs is nonsense.

Appreciate your reading the letter of the law, would fully appreciate any sort of sources indicating where a tenant was actually found liable for this.

It's a different matter where Revenue get in touch, tenant advises landlord, and it gets sorted out.

Again, I'm not disputing what your saying is the law, but the practicalities and process around it I doubt is as black and white as some are making out.

I already provided the link for Citizens Info on it.

nompere

TheDoc wrote: »

They can read whatever book they want to be honest.

To insinuate that a tenant is responsible for a third parties tax affairs is nonsense.

Appreciate your reading the letter of the law, would fully appreciate any sort of sources indicating where a tenant was actually found liable for this.

It's a different matter where Revenue get in touch, tenant advises landlord, and it gets sorted out.

Again, I'm not disputing what your saying is the law, but the practicalities and process around it I doubt is as black and white as some are making out.

Here's a link to the Ombudsman's report of 2009, in which he makes the point that this is something the Ombudsman's office has been fighting since 1998.

https://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/Publications/Annual-Reports/2009-Annual-Report/AnnualReport2009/chapter6.html#s2

It's still unresolved, and S.1041 Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 remains in place.

wersal gummage

tina1040 wrote: »

How are you supposed to know where your landlord lives?...

I've been a landlord (in Ireland) for many years and...... I have never given my home address to a tenant.

Open to correction but I understand that you are in breach of your legal obligations here.

Henry Ford III

TheDoc wrote: »

They can read whatever book they want to be honest.

To insinuate that a tenant is responsible for a third parties tax affairs is nonsense.

Appreciate your reading the letter of the law, would fully appreciate any sort of sources indicating where a tenant was actually found liable for this.

It's a different matter where Revenue get in touch, tenant advises landlord, and it gets sorted out.

Again, I'm not disputing what your saying is the law, but the practicalities and process around it I doubt is as black and white as some are making out.

They aren't. A tenant however is responsible for witholding and paying over tax from rent payable to a non resident. It's absolutely black and white.

The_Conductor

El Chapo wrote: »

You want the tenant to sort out the landlord's tax affairs as well as chasing him/her up to actually pay their rent?

Good Lord..

Its the law- its not that anyone wants the OP (or anyone else) to do it- once you are renting from a non-resident landlord- you are supposed to deduct a straight 20% witholding tax- and forward it to Revenue.

Lady is a tramp

So I'm just curious, I was renting a house a couple of years back through an estate agency. I never spoke to or dealt with the owner of the house, but the estate agent mentioned in passing once that the owner was Irish but lived in Australia. As per the contract I signed, I paid X amount per month into the landlord's bank account (which was in an Irish bank.)

I was aware of the fact that 20% should have been paid directly to Revenue ... however I never bothered doing this. There was nothing in writing, i.e. no evidence that I was even aware that the landlord lived abroad.

Could I have been pursued for the 20% in this situation, or would the estate agent be liable? I mean, this must be a common enough situation when renting through an agency, that the tenants know nothing about the landlord or where the landlord lives?

The_Conductor

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Could I have been pursued for the 20% in this situation, or would the estate agent be liable? I mean, this must be a common enough situation when renting through an agency, that the tenants know nothing about the landlord or where the landlord lives?

Yes- you are liable- yes, you could have been pursued.

Timmyr

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

So I'm just curious, I was renting a house a couple of years back through an estate agency. I never spoke to or dealt with the owner of the house, but the estate agent mentioned in passing once that the owner was Irish but lived in Australia. As per the contract I signed, I paid X amount per month into the landlord's bank account (which was in an Irish bank.)

I was aware of the fact that 20% should have been paid directly to Revenue ... however I never bothered doing this. There was nothing in writing, i.e. no evidence that I was even aware that the landlord lived abroad.

Could I have been pursued for the 20% in this situation, or would the estate agent be liable? I mean, this must be a common enough situation when renting through an agency, that the tenants know nothing about the landlord or where the landlord lives?

As you dealt through an agent it was not your responsibility

Fian

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

So I'm just curious, I was renting a house a couple of years back through an estate agency. I never spoke to or dealt with the owner of the house, but the estate agent mentioned in passing once that the owner was Irish but lived in Australia. As per the contract I signed, I paid X amount per month into the landlord's bank account (which was in an Irish bank.)

I was aware of the fact that 20% should have been paid directly to Revenue ... however I never bothered doing this. There was nothing in writing, i.e. no evidence that I was even aware that the landlord lived abroad.

Could I have been pursued for the 20% in this situation, or would the estate agent be liable? I mean, this must be a common enough situation when renting through an agency, that the tenants know nothing about the landlord or where the landlord lives?

No, not if you were dealing with an Irish agent.

This obligation arises where a non-resident landlord is managing a tenancy in ireland directly. If they have an agent the agent is responsible. Generally to avoid hassle (for themselves and for the tenant) most foreign resident landlords use an Irish agent.

This is an anti-tax avoidance measure. Non-residents/foreign citizens remain liable to Irish tax in respect of income arising from Irish property. However it could be difficult/uneconomic for revenue to chase a non-resident landlord for this tax. Therefore they have instituted a quasi "withholding tax" framework whereby 20% of the rent is deducted at source by the tenant and paid to revenue.

The Landlord cannot seek to evict for non-payment of rent because a tenant makes this (legally required) deduction. Anymore than an employee can sue their employer for the PAYE taxes deducted from their before tax income.

The_Conductor

Timmyr wrote: »

As you dealt through an agent it was not your responsibility

Depends on what kind of an agent........
'Lady is a tramp' said she was paying directly into the landlord's bank account.
If an agent was appointed to manage a property for a non-resident landlord- the tenant most certainly would not be doing this- they would be paying the rent to the agent, who would fulfill the landlords tax obligations, manage the tenancy, do repairs etc etc- and forward the balance to the landlord's account.........

It is not a regular or normal situation- to pay rent into a landlords bank account- if the landlord is non-resident- it would normally be paid to an agent........

And once again- I think this is a grossly unfair burden to place on a tenant- indeed its highly irrational that a tenant would have this obligation placed on them- however, it is the law.......... Its come up in the Dáil several times over the last 15 years- and has also been discussed numerous times in committee. It is still the law nonetheless.

Lady is a tramp

The_Conductor wrote: »

Yes- you are liable- yes, you could have been pursued.

But - technically speaking - I had no way of knowing that I was liable ... I didn't even know the landlord's name, and had no contact details for him!

The_Conductor

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

But - technically speaking - I had no way of knowing that I was liable ... I didn't even know the landlord's name, and had no contact details for him!

Thats an argument you'd have had to have with Revenue had they investigated the landlord........ Unfortunately- their point of view is that ignorance does not excuse you of your legal obligations.

I think as a law/rule its completely nuts- however, Revenue's viewpoint is that you're purchasing a service from an individual or an entity who are not tax resident in this jurisdiction- therefore- you are the liable party. You can try to plead ignorance to them- however, its not a good idea to try that approach with Revenue..........

Timmyr

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

But - technically speaking - I had no way of knowing that I was liable ... I didn't even know the landlord's name, and had no contact details for him!

Ignorantia juris non excusat

AvonEnniskerry

I've rented 3 different properties and only in one was I given landlords address. 2 have been with people who live in Australia. The first his parents were my contact throughout the whole tenancy, though I could contact him through email if required.

This one, when I viewed the property the landlord was present. Though his cousin showed it and managed the property through a phone she only used for the tenants. About a year ago she couldn't do it anymore so we were given contact details for our landlord at that point. A gmail account was set up and I was given an Australian contact number for my landlords new wife. But things failed to get resolved and they appointed someone else to do repairs etc. Since then they changed that person without informing me... And now my money is bouncing back.

My question wasn't really about either my own or the landlords tax affairs but about where I go from payments bouncing back as technically I am not paying my rent...

Also if I gave revenue 20% of my rent I am positive my rent would go up 20% to cover their costs. Or else they'd find a new tenant. I have no way of knowing about my landlords tax affairs and what he's doing. He's in contact with revenue as he paid the local property tax...

Henry Ford III

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

...Also if I gave revenue 20% of my rent I am positive my rent would go up 20% to cover their costs. Or else they'd find a new tenant. I have no way of knowing about my landlords tax affairs and what he's doing. He's in contact with revenue as he paid the local property tax...

That'd be incorrect. It's not allowed.

You need no nothing of your non resident landlords tax affairs - it's non of your business.

You still have an obligation to deduct and pay over the witholding tax however.

Timmyr

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

My question wasn't really about either my own or the landlords tax affairs but about where I go from payments bouncing back as technically I am not paying my rent...

Have you asked the bank? Probably the first port of call

AvonEnniskerry

confusedguy1 wrote:

Your attitude really angers me - this consistant "sure feck the landlord, I'll save what I can from him/her". I had a similiar attitude from a tenant I am currently pursuing via the PRTB for unpaid rent, bills and missing goods. She claimed that she lodged cash to my account and "the bank must have misplaced the money". I was away travelling at the time and only noticed it at a later date. She then claimed that as she was not informed straight away that she wasn't obliged to pay anything.

I can prove the rent came out of my account. I have already stated I've contacted the landlord and his brother in relation to trying to sort payment. I've also stated I've put the money aside for him.

My only irritant is that it should come from both sides. I'm a good tenant never missed a payment. Keep the house clean and looking well. I'm quiet. Don't go out, have parties etc.
However there are leaks and smells in the house that I've been asking to be resolved from day 1... And now that a payment is being rejected on their side it's another issue that I've to chase them up about.
If I was any other tenant I'd have been withholding my rent until the issues above were resolved..

AvonEnniskerry

Timmyr wrote:

Have you asked the bank? Probably the first port of call

Yes. It's across banks. His bank won't say a thing due to data protection. My bank can't see where or why payment being returned as no details are sent back

confusedguy1

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

I can prove the rent came out of my account. I have already stated I've contacted the landlord and his brother in relation to trying to sort payment. I've also stated I've put the money aside for him.

My only irritant is that it should come from both sides. I'm a good tenant never missed a payment. Keep the house clean and looking well. I'm quiet. Don't go out, have parties etc.
However there are leaks and smells in the house that I've been asking to be resolved from day 1... And now that a payment is being rejected on their side it's another issue that I've to chase them up about.
If I was any other tenant I'd have been withholding my rent until the issues above were resolved..

You should review the obligations of your lease (as should the landlord). You have no right to withhold rent.

AvonEnniskerry

confusedguy1 wrote:

You should review the obligations of your lease (as should the landlord). You have no right to withhold rent.

I didn't. I said that's what others would do. You're getting very caught up in theoretical scenarios

vandriver

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Also if I gave revenue 20% of my rent I am positive my rent would go up 20% to cover their costs. Or else they'd find a new tenant. I have no way of knowing about my landlords tax affairs and what he's doing. He's in contact with revenue as he paid the local property tax...

The landlord incurs no extra cost,as he gets the 20% paid as a credit against tax due.

TheDoc

nompere wrote: »

Here's a link to the Ombudsman's report of 2009, in which he makes the point that this is something the Ombudsman's office has been fighting since 1998.

https://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/Publications/Annual-Reports/2009-Annual-Report/AnnualReport2009/chapter6.html#s2

It's still unresolved, and S.1041 Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 remains in place.

Thanks for the link, incredible read.

I had never EVER heard of this issue before today, and I'm renting a fair while. As mentioned in that link, it's a total nonsense to expect people to a)Acutely aware of tax responsibility relating to this situation and b)The tenant being liable to actually manage and pay this tax.

It might well be the law, but doubt highly Revenue would actually properly hammer a tenant on this. I'd imagine Revenue probably do speak to tenants, who then speak to landlords, and landlords organise it themselves.

TheDoc

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That'd be incorrect. It's not allowed.

You need no nothing of your non resident landlords tax affairs - it's non of your business.

You still have an obligation to deduct and pay over the witholding tax however.

You can see the contradiction, and why it might be difficult to accept(I know I'm not appreciating some of the tones in posts) that on one hand a third parties tax affairs are none of his/her business, but they are expected to actually manage and submit them....

The_Conductor

TheDoc wrote: »

You can see the contradiction, and why it might be difficult to accept(I know I'm not appreciating some of the tones in posts) that on one hand a third parties tax affairs are none of his/her business, but they are expected to actually manage and submit them....

No-one is expected to manage or submit someone else's tax affairs.
Its the same as buying a service from any supplier based in another country- you withold 20% tax on the amount. I don't do it regularly- but I've had to do it a few times over the past 15 years (not in the context of a residential letting).

It is nuts that it was seen as fit to extend this provision to the residential letting market- however, Revenue have deemed renting to be a service sector activity- and applied the rules with no deviation (of course there are different tax implications for a landlord than there would be for a providor of other services- however, its moot in the context of this discussion).

It is nuts that this situation continues to stand- but it does.

TheDoc

The_Conductor wrote: »

No-one is expected to manage or submit someone else's tax affairs.
Its the same as buying a service from any supplier based in another country- you withold 20% tax on the amount. I don't do it regularly- but I've had to do it a few times over the past 15 years (not in the context of a residential letting).

I don't believe that to be the case. Reading the Revenue website it is described as "Income Tax". The tenant is basically submitting to Revenue a 20%income tax on the landlord, with what I can only assume is Revenue "assuming" foreign landlords wont pay up.

If it was for services rendered it would be described as VAT, and that is not at 20%.

Either or, Revenue are describing it as "Income Tax" which to me very much reads as settling the landlords affairs, no?

It is nuts that it was seen as fit to extend this provision to the residential letting market- however, Revenue have deemed renting to be a service sector activity- and applied the rules with no deviation (of course there are different tax implications for a landlord than there would be for a providor of other services- however, its moot in the context of this discussion).

It is nuts that this situation continues to stand- but it does.

I think I'm more surprised that its a thing. I like to "think" I know my stuff relative to me when it comes to my tennancy, so fair enough I've never had a foreign based landlord, but I don't even know where or how this would even come about to my knowledge, without the landlord actually saying it.

And at that point I'd probably be like "er can you sort your own taxes out?"


EDIT: Just read the site more and looked at a few forms. This is very much income tax. Revenue basically make the tenant liable, on the assumption landlords won't pay it so the tenant is guilted into it. The landlord then receives a form from the tenant, which outlines how the landlord receives this tax BACK, as an income tax credit. Jesus wept

The booklet that the details are contained in are titled Income Tax, Capital Gains Tax and Corporation Tax Manual