To Vaccinate or not...

cocker5

I thought I'd put this out there.

I've done alot of research and in still confused about what to do.

My dog is now 11 (April) and is due for his yearly vaccinations in August.

He gets wormed regularly and frontline etc but I'm wondering at 11 am i doing more harm than good by vaccinating him?

Its not about the money whatsoever its all about not pumping him full of unnecessary drugs at his age. i don't want them to damage his immune system etc.

I am trying to keep him in very good health for as long as i can, he's on supplements (salmon oil / tumeric paste and luposan pellets), so i really want the best for him...

he is never in kennels (stay's now with my sister etc)

any thoughts? is is still worth it to vaccinate at 11.. or only certain vaccinations? i dont want to pump his little body with too many drugs unless necessary

muddypaws

The accepted protocol now is to only do the core vaccines every 3 years, your vet should confirm this. Lepto is one that does need annual vaccination though. I would get the lepto each year, as my dogs tend to be out in forests etc both here and abroad, and sometimes puddle dip, but if you don't allow your dog to drink from puddles, streams etc, you may feel that it isn't needed.

SillyMangoX

I'd agree with muddypaws, lepto every year if they're anywhere near water.
Other than that, you could maybe talk to your vets about a titre test to check immunity levels of the other vaccines? I'd imagine at 11 there would be a very good base of immunity there already

tk123

The Lepto 4 vaccination has a bad rep/press with FB pages about it etc etc - how much of it is propaganda or not I guess is up to the individual - some people believe everything they read and some don't. Like any medication there can be side effects.. I'm not an extreme raw feeder who won't medicate their dogs so have an open mind compared to others who'd be more militant. I'm in two minds getting it for Lucy though because she was sick from it last year for the best part of a week ..and because it's treatable and the same with the KC one.

For the cores you can get a vaccicheck titre test for around €50 to check if they still have immunity - I got it for Bailey last year and plan on getting it for Lucy next year. My vet doesn't stock it and was quoted €170 :eek: for a blood test so I went to a different vets for it and brought back the results etc so they'd put them on our file.

I don't flea at all and do worm counts every 3-6 months and they've always been clear

cocker5

muddypaws wrote: »

The accepted protocol now is to only do the core vaccines every 3 years, your vet should confirm this. Lepto is one that does need annual vaccination though. I would get the lepto each year, as my dogs tend to be out in forests etc both here and abroad, and sometimes puddle dip, but if you don't allow your dog to drink from puddles, streams etc, you may feel that it isn't needed.

Thanks Muddypaws - hes a fecker for drinking out of ponds up the mountains

cocker5

SillyMangoX wrote: »

I'd agree with muddypaws, lepto every year if they're anywhere near water.
Other than that, you could maybe talk to your vets about a titre test to check immunity levels of the other vaccines? I'd imagine at 11 there would be a very good base of immunity there already

Thanks Silly MangoX - I rather go in and tell my vet if I'm honest, i don't think she very forward thinking in this regard - 3 years ago she was VERY insistent Cody get injections in his shoulders for stiffness / pain - I declined and started him on all the supplements i mentioned above and hes been perfect ever since.. she would ave him doped off his head by now.

Maybe i need to move to a more forward thinking Vet

cocker5

tk123 wrote: »

The Lepto 4 vaccination has a bad rep/press with FB pages about it etc etc - how much of it is propaganda or not I guess is up to the individual - some people believe everything they read and some don't. Like any medication there can be side effects.. I'm not an extreme raw feeder who won't medicate their dogs so have an open mind compared to others who'd be more militant. I'm in two minds getting it for Lucy though because she was sick from it last year for the best part of a week ..and because it's treatable and the same with the KC one.

For the cores you can get a vaccicheck titre test for around €50 to check if they still have immunity - I got it for Bailey last year and plan on getting it for Lucy next year. My vet doesn't stock it and was quoted €170 :eek: for a blood test so I went to a different vets for it and brought back the results etc so they'd put them on our file.

I don't flea at all and do worm counts every 3-6 months and they've always been clear

Thanks tk123 - food for thought! i just dont want to leave him exposed to anything yet dont want to flood his body with drugs

syklops

cocker5 wrote: »

Thanks tk123 - food for thought! i just dont want to leave him exposed to anything yet dont want to flood his body with drugs

Its a vaccine, its not heroin. I suppose you are averse to him breathing in and drinking chemicals like Dihydrogen monoxide too?

cocker5

syklops wrote: »

Its a vaccine, its not heroin. I suppose you are averse to him breathing in and drinking chemicals like Dihydrogen monoxide too?

Why post if your going to act like a d*ck??

if you cannot offer advise on vaccinating and its effects then don't bother. :cool:

muddypaws

syklops wrote: »

Its a vaccine, its not heroin. I suppose you are averse to him breathing in and drinking chemicals like Dihydrogen monoxide too?

The thing is, that a lot of pet owners are very wary of the vaccination companies. Humans get vaccinated as children, but then they don't get an annual booster for the rest of their lives. So, questions have been asked for a few years now, as to whether it is necessary for dogs and cats to have those boosters. The vaccination companies are now saying that the core vaccines are effective for 3 years, possibly longer. How long have they known this? Did they not change their protocol because of the money they were earning?

I am most definitely not anti-vaccination, but I don't see the point of putting unnecessary chemicals into a body, which is a view shared by a lot of other pet owners.

And the OP has already said that their dog consumes Dihydrogen monoxide

cocker5

muddypaws wrote: »

The thing is, that a lot of pet owners are very wary of the vaccination companies. Humans get vaccinated as children, but then they don't get an annual booster for the rest of their lives. So, questions have been asked for a few years now, as to whether it is necessary for dogs and cats to have those boosters. The vaccination companies are now saying that the core vaccines are effective for 3 years, possibly longer. How long have they known this? Did they not change their protocol because of the money they were earning?

I am most definitely not anti-vaccination, but I don't see the point of putting unnecessary chemicals into a body, which is a view shared by a lot of other pet owners.

And the OP has already said that their dog consumes Dihydrogen monoxide

Sums my whole concern up in a nut shell!

ps i share the same view for my own body... its a family thing

syklops

cocker5 wrote: »

Why post if your going to act like a d*ck??

if you cannot offer advise on vaccinating and its effects then don't bother. :cool:

I wasn't acting like a d*ck, Im sorry if it came across that way. I just dislike when drugs and chemicals are instantly considered evil.

The thing is, that a lot of pet owners are very wary of the vaccination companies. Humans get vaccinated as children, but then they don't get an annual booster for the rest of their lives.

Not true regarding adults. Many people get a yearly vaccine against Influenza. If you get admitted to a hospital they test your levels of immunity to various diseases and administer vaccines for any that are low.

So, questions have been asked for a few years now, as to whether it is necessary for dogs and cats to have those boosters. The vaccination companies are now saying that the core vaccines are effective for 3 years, possibly longer. How long have they known this? Did they not change their protocol because of the money they were earning?

I am most definitely not anti-vaccination, but I don't see the point of putting unnecessary chemicals into a body, which is a view shared by a lot of other pet owners.

Its perfectly normal to question whether yearly vaccines are necessary, but the question comes down to whether you trust your vet or not. Maybe go one further and ask for a blood test to check for levels of immunity and only get boosters for the ones that are low. If this was about vets making money at the expense of the wealth-fare of their patient I'd imagine more vets would be pushing the blood testing route as that costs more than the booster does.

muddypaws

syklops wrote: »

Not true regarding adults. Many people get a yearly vaccine against Influenza. If you get admitted to a hospital they test your levels of immunity to various diseases and administer vaccines for any that are low.



Its perfectly normal to question whether yearly vaccines are necessary, but the question comes down to whether you trust your vet or not. Maybe go one further and ask for a blood test to check for levels of immunity and only get boosters for the ones that are low. If this was about vets making money at the expense of the wealth-fare of their patient I'd imagine more vets would be pushing the blood testing route as that costs more than the booster does.

But you're arguing against yourself now. People within certain risk categories get the flu vaccine, not everybody, so why should ALL dogs and cats get an annual vaccination, without any thought going into whether they may be in a risk category or not?

I think its actually more about the drug companies making money, rather than the vets. Although, having said that, my vet has been saying core vaccines only every 3 years for quite some time now, yet other vets have, and still do push for annual vaccinations for everything, against the new protocol of the manufacturers.

aonb

I went through this whole idea a few years back. One of my very elderly dogs developed major reactions to any vaccinations. He had been vaccinated for the first 8 or 9 years of his life, then this reaction became an issue. My vet at that time, discussed it with me, and decided at his age, we would discontinue vaccinations - he (the vet) was of a similar view; whats the point of loading unneccessary meds into a system, systems would build up a resistance after having had vaccinations for several years, whether vaccinations were effective in a lot of cases - different strains of diseases not being covered by the vaccination etc (my dogs had kennel cough twice, despite being vaccinated for years)

As someone said, its a personal decision.
Because I may need kennels, dogs still get the KC vaccination - despite its being not very effective, depending on the strain being not covered/covered by the vaccination. Ive stopped flea/worm treatments - we've never had either. The cat still gets advocate unfortunately, as shes out in the fields all day and has come home with fleas

syklops

muddypaws wrote: »

But you're arguing against yourself now. People within certain risk categories get the flu vaccine, not everybody...

Everybody should get it. In fact HSE guidelines state that everyone older than 6 months old should get it. Its only free to people within certain health categories.

Im 32 and in perfect health but I get the flu jab every year. Last got the flu 6 years ago, the year before I started getting the jab.

so why should ALL dogs and cats get an annual vaccination, without any thought going into whether they may be in a risk category or not?

Did you read the rest of my post? Ask your vet. If you dont believe your vet ask for a blood test.

maggiepip

syklops wrote: »

Everybody should get it. In fact HSE guidelines state that everyone older than 6 months old should get it. Its only free to people within certain health categories.

Im 32 and in perfect health but I get the flu jab every year. Last got the flu 6 years ago, the year before I started getting the jab.



Did you read the rest of my post? Ask your vet. If you dont believe your vet ask for a blood test.

I last got the proper flu about 8 years ago, I've never had a flu jab.
You are aware the flu jab only protects against a couple of strains which they predict are the most likely to be doing the rounds each year? There's many other strains of flu it won't protect against.
In fact they got the vaccine strains wrong there either last year or the year before , so the vaccine that year would have been pretty useless.

The drugs companies push guidelines onto vets and doctors, and many don't question. I don't believe the drugs companies always have our best interests at heart.

I dont believe in blindly trusting any medical authority. Theres so much information available now to the "lay" person to allow us to responsibly research and question.

Many vets are still recommending yearly vaccinations, the guidelines now contradict this. Should I just accept this because a particular vet says so?

borderlinemeath

I've never had a flu jab in my life and I'm a healthy 42yr old. I reckon I've only ever had the flu 3 times.

cocker5

Thanks guys for all your posts lots of think about for Cody!

Ok the flu jab - I'm 38 perfectly healthy, never had it, will never get it. Only had the flu once around 12 years ago.

Personally I only ever get vaccines when I'm travelling to areas of the world where serious diseases exist.

On the other hand my OH who has a serious auto immune disease .. Diagnosed 3 years ago was advised to get flu jab - he got really bad flu both years..

This year I convinced him not to get it .. And low and behold he's fine - no flu.

Personally I believe SOME vaccines are advertised through scaremongering and to make profit for pharmaceuticals - that's just my opinion.

aonb

every year the scientists "guess" which flu bug will be prevalant the following year, and make the vaccine for that bug. Sometimes they get it "wrong" or rather, a different bug prevales or mutates - as was the case with this years flu vaccine

When my dogs got kennel cough, despite having been vaccinated, the vets explained that the vaccine was made for the wrong strain of kennel cough that year ... (incidently the kennel cough, didnt spread to the other dogs in the house, and the dog that had it just "coughed" - wasnt unwell - a bit of honey and a human cough bottle sorted him - so kennel cough in our case at least, was pretty uneventful after the initial panic when we heard the dreaded Kennel Cough)

maggiepip

cocker5 wrote: »

Thanks guys for all your posts lots of think about for Cody!

Ok the flu jab - I'm 38 perfectly healthy, never had it, will never get it. Only had the flu once around 12 years ago.

Personally I only ever get vaccines when I'm travelling to areas of the world where serious diseases exist.

On the other hand my OH who has a serious auto immune disease .. Diagnosed 3 years ago was advised to get flu jab - he got really bad flu both years..

This year I convinced him not to get it .. And low and behold he's fine - no flu.

Personally I believe SOME vaccines are advertised through scaremongering and to make profit for pharmaceuticals - that's just my opinion.

I know a couple of people who got a terrible dose of the "real" flu after getting the vaccine. Also some years ago my cousin got seriously ill, was hospitalized and almost lost his sight from an auto immune reaction to the flu jab.

The majority of healthy peoples immune systems are well able to naturally handle a dose of the flu.
Antibiotics are dished out far too casually as well, and vets are big offenders, but thats another topic...

tk123

hehehe I'm in a risk category so get the flu jab...but we get it free in work lol! Otherwise I probably wouldn't bother because I'd be too lazy to organise myself. I've never had the flu either before or since I've started getting the jab.

When Bailey had his titre he was low for distemper - the vet said he hadn't seen a case in over 15 years either from private or rescue/pound patients so there was no need to vaccinate against it. I don't plan to have him titred again - he's 7 today. Lucy girl will get a titre next year and I'm going to talk to the vet about L4 this week when Bailey goes back for a checkup.

DBB

Off topic... Happy birthday Bailey

cocker5

Happy birthday Bailey!! 💕

tk123

This is the FB site about L4. I've never bothered to look at it before because I thought it was just scaremongering but some of the stories on it :eek: https://www.facebook.com/groups/322967551247441/

Choc Chip

tk123 wrote: »

This is the FB site about L4. I've never bothered to look at it before because I thought it was just scaremongering but some of the stories on it :eek: https://www.facebook.com/groups/322967551247441/

Damn you! I've just read down that facebook page and (while I think the comments range from scary to insane) my main issue is that I've just watched the video of the pom puppy and am now insanely broody for one. No more work for me today - I need to go and google videos of pomeranian puppies.

tk123

Choc Chip wrote: »

Damn you! I've just read down that facebook page and (while I think the comments range from scary to insane) my main issue is that I've just watched the video of the pom puppy and am now insanely broody for one. No more work for me today - I need to go and google videos of pomeranian puppies.

hehe will you get the pup vaccinated? :P

thegreatgonzo

One of the reasons vets still encourage the boosters is to get people to bring the dog in for a yearly check up. People posting here aren't representative of many pet owners we see in the clinics. A vet mightn't see a dog for years after his initial vaccinations and then he comes with a chronic complaint that could have been picked up ages before and managed.
I know one vet told me that he felt it was a bit of a dilemma when the instructions on the vaccine data sheet (which don't change for years) were contradicted by the new guidelines regarding yearly vaccinations. He felt that if he ignored the data sheet and didn't vaccinate and the patient was unfortunate enough to become sick, then he might be found negligent.

tk123

My two are insured so an annual check up is a requirement. I've made my mind up anyways no more lepto or KC and titres for the cores.

boomerang

I feel a personal responsibility to vaccinate my dogs. The reason infectious diseases such as distemper are less prevalent than in previous decades is because more people are vaccinating their dogs. It's called herd immunity. An unvaccinated dog who contracts the disease will suffer a more virulent form of infection and in turn will be more infectious to other dogs.

Personally I think the kennel cough vaccine is important for both youngsters and geriatric dogs, because these are more likely to contract it, or indeed to have a more severe form of the infection. It's not inconsequential. And not restricted to kennels. My two dogs got kennel cough without ever going into kennels.

One school of thought is that as older dogs are immuno-compromised, it becomes more important to vaccinate them.

Whatever about the DHPPi vaccine, I wouldn't hesitate to vaccinate against lepto each year, as this is the maximum period that the vaccine remains effective. Having seen life-threatening cases of lepto in vets, and with two rural dogs that access water outside, I'm not taking the risk.

I agree with following the current recommended protocol for vaccination schedules and wouldn't dream of not vaccinating. Which goes against popular opinion I guess.

Choc Chip

boomerang wrote: »

I agree with following the current recommended protocol for vaccination schedules and wouldn't dream of not vaccinating. Which goes against popular opinion I guess.

Not necessarily an unpopular opinion - I vaccinate. One of my two used to belong to my parents though and he gets really sick every year after his vaccinations (particularly kennel cough). I'm going to be chatting to my vet about whether or not to vaccinate him this year (a) because of the three year guideline mentioned above and (b) because I don't think I should give him something that appears to be making him sick.

Having said that, mine go to and from the UK a good bit and I need to check what's required by their passports and then make a decision based on what my vet says, what their kennels require and what the pet passport requirements are (and based on the risk and severity of any symptoms that appear to occur as a result of the vaccination if I do vaccinate this year).

I'm tired thinking about it.

muddypaws

Choc Chip wrote: »

Having said that, mine go to and from the UK a good bit and I need to check what's required by their passports and then make a decision based on what my vet says, what their kennels require and what the pet passport requirements are (and based on the risk and severity of any symptoms that appear to occur as a result of the vaccination if I do vaccinate this year).

I'm tired thinking about it.

The really stupid thing is, that the only vaccination that is needed on the pet passport to go between Ireland and GB is rabies, and both islands are rabies free. You can take a dog over that could be carrying distemper, lepto, parvo even, but they must be immune to rabies. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. :mad:

Choc Chip

muddypaws wrote: »

The really stupid thing is, that the only vaccination that is needed on the pet passport to go between Ireland and GB is rabies, and both islands are rabies free. You can take a dog over that could be carrying distemper, lepto, parvo even, but they must be immune to rabies. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. :mad:

I've just pulled out the passports for interest. Funnily enough, one was vaccinated in the UK and one in ROI but both have the exact same batch number for the Nobivac Rabies.

2 different vets: one passport says that the vaccination is valid for 3 years and one passport says that the vaccination is valid for one year. I've not even started looking into it and I feel like giving up!

muddypaws

Choc Chip wrote: »

I've just pulled out the passports for interest. Funnily enough, one was vaccinated in the UK and one in ROI but both have the exact same batch number for the Nobivac Rabies.

2 different vets: one passport says that the vaccination is valid for 3 years and one passport says that the vaccination is valid for one year. I've not even started looking into it and I feel like giving up!

Wow, what are the chances of that?

It is 3 years don't worry. If they ever get checked of course, we have only been checked properly once, when they actually looked to see if the vaccination was in date, never had the chips scanned though, so the passports could belong to anybody!

tk123

Choc Chip wrote: »

Not necessarily an unpopular opinion - I vaccinate. One of my two used to belong to my parents though and he gets really sick every year after his vaccinations (particularly kennel cough). I'm going to be chatting to my vet about whether or not to vaccinate him this year (a) because of the three year guideline mentioned above and (b) because I don't think I should give him something that appears to be making him sick.

..

I'm tired thinking about it.

Same with Lucy and the same thinking about it!!!

The vet who told me not to bother redoing the cores has a big practice with a few branches - I saw him in their biggest hospital branch where they do a lot of ortho surgery, diagnostics etc - vaccinations would be peanuts to them compared to another vet where it's their bread and butter.

Have a read and do some research - you have the likes of Jean Dodds writing articles about the dangers of over vaccinating and the different vaccinations etc etc so it's not all biased articles from biased websites like dogsnaturally.com