Children in the front seat of a car!

Emmadilema123

ted1 wrote: »

And if they do , they never use seatbelt tensioner that is supplied

Yeah I've seen that. Can people not see the seatbelt coming across their child's neck?

GM228

ted1 wrote: »

You said that it's illegal for a child over 3 and under 150 be in the front

Re-read what I wrote, it's in relation to a vehicle with no seatbelt, and I never said it was illegal either.

GM228 wrote:

Despite what Google or the RSA say there is a law about children in front seats although it's just in relation to vehicles with no safety systems.

Under EU law (Directive 2003/20/EC) a child over age 3 and under 150cm height can't legally be in a front seat.

ted1 wrote: »

You have not yet provided any fact to back up you claim. We all acknowledge that they need to be in appropriate car seats.

Link was provided in the same post!

"GM228 wrote:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32003L0020

without prejudice to point (ii), children aged three and over and less than 150 cm in height shall occupy a seat other than a front seat;

Jesus.

okonomiyaki wrote: »

I phoned the Gardai about this a few years ago on behalf of someone who was quite upset after being told off by some random person for doing it. Apparently once the child is in an appropriate car seat for their height and weight, it is legal for a child to sit in the front.

Classic example of some interfering sh1t bag who should mind their own.

ted1

GM228 wrote: »

Re-read what I wrote, it's in relation to a vehicle with no seatbelt!






Link was provided in the same post!

"GM228 wrote:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32003L0020

Link is eu directive and not relevant to the question with regards Irish Law

GM228

ted1 wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

Re-read what I wrote, it's in relation to a vehicle with no seatbelt!






Link was provided in the same post!

Link is eu directive and not relevant to the question with regards Irish Law

It's very relevant!

Perhaps you missed the post where I showed that Irish law works off the EU directives in relation to appropriate child restraint which dictates age, height, weight and when just an adults seatbelt can be used etc.

Rather than go through each piece of legislative text I'll highlight the heading and footnotes of the Irish legislation I highlighted:-

I, PASCHAL DONOHOE, Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, in exercise of the powers conferred on me by section 3 of the European Communities Act 1972 (No. 27 of 1972) and for the purpose of giving effect to Commission Implementing Directive 2014/37/EU of 27 February 20141 , hereby make the following regulations:


These Regulations give effect to Commission Implementing Directive 2014/37/EU of 27 February 2014 which provides for enhanced requirements for child restraint systems.

There's also this in Irish law - only difference is it dosn't specify height.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/si/240/made/en/print

7(2)

A child of 3 years of age or more may be carried on a seat (other than a front seat) of a relevant vehicle which is not equipped with belt anchorages.

The directive is more favourable as it specifies a height and so would apply in a court of law and override domestic law even if not specifically mentioned in Irish law if someone so wishes to use it as a defence.

ted1 wrote: »

And with regards the specific topic , please do reference the relative S.I

Just in relation to the above, do you realise that directives don't actually have to be implemented via a statutory instrument, they can be implemented via Statute/ministerial regulation as opposed to a statutory instrument, but a statutory instrument is generally the way they are implemented or transpositioned.

As per Irish Law any act adopted by the EU as per the EU Treaties is legally binding on Ireland (unless there an opt-out, derogation etc) and is part of domestic law-without prejudice to which any act of the EU has the force of law in Ireland.

In other words as per Irish Law an EU Directive (which is a legislative act) is a part of Irish domestic law.

So perhaps you should re-think your "there's so much rubbish and BS behind spread here. Folks if you don't know the law , stop giving answers that you think is law" statement considering the directives I mentioned has been implemented/transpositioned into Irish law.

sunny2004

UPDATE

Ok, as there is clearly 2 camps of thoughts on this, both convincing, some with links to back up their argument, I decided on Saturday to make a few calls..

First call to An Garda Síochána HeadquartersAddress:Phoenix Park, Dublin 8, D08 HN3X.
Telephone:+353 1 666 0000

I was told there was an age/height restriction. I mentioned the ROAD SAFETY AUTORITY WEBSITE, the response was, "ok, I tell you what to do, call the TRAFFIC SECTION, they will be able to give you a definitive answer..

Call 2. Traffic division 01- 6669800

Asked if it would be legal to put a child in the front seat. Gave the age of the child.
Response, "why would you want to do that ? "
I responded "you sound exactly like a Garda haha, I explained it was a once off, but I wanted to know exactly what the legal situation was.."

The Garda explained it was a Age/height issue, as a "GENERAL RULE" the child must be over 12. The next part shocked me, without prompting he said he was aware of the RSA website information, and he said it was incorrect under current law.. He also added that its unlikely any guard is going to prosecute anyone for this if the child has the appropriate booster seat for their age etc, but that I need to be aware that it is in fact illegal.

I found the Garda very helpful and if anyone else has the time to confirm this position, Garda Traffic can be contacted on 01- 6669800 or http://www.garda.ie/stations/default.aspx for a full list of Garda Stations..

bladespin

Don't even think about asking about kids riding pillion lol.

Red Kev

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

Jaysis, I remember 7 of us packed into a car getting a lift to a match. Two in the front passenger seat, 4 in the back, and the smallest lad up behind the back headrests...

We used to beat the heads off each other to see who would get to sit in the rear luggae compartment of our Aunts Beetle. Two in that, 5 in the back seat and two more up front with her. All of us in to watch the Paddy's Day parade.

Two of us in the open boot of a K20 Corolla on the 3 mile run to and from the bog every day for a fotnight in summer.

sunny2004

GM228 wrote: »

Yes the RSA site is incorrect as I already stated, but "as general rule", what's that supposed to mean.

The age 12 requirenent was removed in 2014.

I have no idea, I'm assuming he was simplifying the regulations as I am neither a Garda or solicitor.

I supplied the phone numbers if you wish to get clarification.

GM228

My post deleted when updating it by accident so re-posted

sunny2004 wrote: »

UPDATE

Ok, as there is clearly 2 camps of thoughts on this, both convincing, some with links to back up their argument, I decided on Saturday to make a few calls..

First call to An Garda Síochána HeadquartersAddress:Phoenix Park, Dublin 8, D08 HN3X.

Telephone:+353 1 666 0000

I was told there was an age/height restriction. I mentioned the ROAD SAFETY AUTORITY WEBSITE, the response was, "ok, I tell you what to do, call the TRAFFIC SECTION, they will be able to give you a definitive answer..

Call 2. Traffic division 01- 6669800

Asked if it would be legal to put a child in the front seat. Gave the age of the child.

Response, "why would you want to do that ? "

I responded "you sound exactly like a Garda haha, I explained it was a once off, but I wanted to know exactly what the legal situation was.."

The Garda explained it was a Age/height issue, as a "GENERAL RULE" the child must be over 12. The next part shocked me, without prompting he said he was aware of the RSA website information, and he said it was incorrect under current law.. He also added that its unlikely any guard is going to prosecute anyone for this if the child has the appropriate booster seat for their age etc, but that I need to be aware that it is in fact illegal.

I found the Garda very helpful and if anyone else has the time to confirm this position, Garda Traffic can be contacted on 01- 6669800 or http://www.garda.ie/stations/default.aspx for a full list of Garda Stations..

Yes the RSA site is incorrect as I already stated, but "as general rule", what's that supposed to mean.

The age 12 requirenent was removed in 2003 from the EU Directives and the appropriate directive SI was introduced here in 2006.

The appropriate EU Directive 91/671/EEC Article 2 used to specify the age 12 requirement:-

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31991L0671

Article 2

Member States shall ensure that the driver and passengers occupying the seats of vehicles on the road as referred to in Article 1 wear safety belts or are restrained by an approved restraint system provided the occupied seats are fitted with such equipment. Rear-seat occupants must use equipped seats before others.



Member States shall ensure that children under 12 years of age and who are less than 150 cm tall, travelling in such vehicles and occupying belted seats, are restrained by an approved restraint system suitable for the child's height and weight. These seats must be occupied before the others.

The use of a restraint system approved by the competent authority of a Member State shall be permitted by the other Member States.

However EU Directive 2003/20/EC amended Article 2 to say:-

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32003L0020

Directive 91/671/EEC is hereby amended as follows:



3. Article 2 shall be replaced by the following:


"Article 2

1. M1, N1, N2 and N3 vehicles:

(a) (i) for M1, NI, N2 and N3 vehicles, Member States shall require that all occupants of vehicles in use shall use the safety systems provided.

Children less than 150 cm in height occupying M1, N1, N2 and N3 vehicles fitted with safety systems shall be restrained by an integral or non-integral child-restraint system, within the meaning of Article 1(4)(a) and (b), suitable for the child's mass as defined in Article 1(3);

in M1, N1, N2 and N3 vehicles that are not fitted with safety systems:

- children under three years of age may not be transported,

- without prejudice to point (ii), children aged three and over and less than 150 cm in height shall occupy a seat other than a front seat;

(ii) Member States may allow, in their territory, children of less than 150 cm in height and of at least 135 cm in height to be restrained by a safety belt for adults. These height limits shall be re-examined according to the procedure referred to in Article 7b(2);



(iii) Member States may, however, allow, in their territory, those children referred to in (i) and (ii) not to be restrained by a child-restraint system when travelling in taxis. However, when the abovementioned children are travelling in taxis not fitted with restraint systems they shall occupy a seat other than a front seat;

(b) children may not be transported using a rearward-facing child-restraint system in a passenger seat protected by a front air bag, unless the air bag has been deactivated, even in cases where the air bag is automatically deactivated in a sufficient manner;

(c) where a child-restraint system is used, it shall be approved to the standards of UN-ECE Regulation 44/03 or Directive 77/541/EEC, or any other subsequent adaptation thereto;

(d) until 9 May 2008 Member States may permit the use of child-restraint systems approved in accordance with the national standards applicable in the Member State on the date of installation of the restraint system or with national standards equivalent to Regulation 44/03 of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe or Directive 75/541/EEC.



2. M2 and M3 vehicles:

(a) Member States shall require that all occupants aged three and over of M2 and M3 vehicles in use shall use the safety systems provided while they are seated.



Child restraints shall be approved in accordance with paragraph (1)(c) and (d);



(b) passengers in M2 and M3 vehicles shall be informed of the requirement to wear safety belts whenever they are seated and the vehicle is in motion. They shall be informed in one or more of the following ways:

- by the driver,

- by the conductor, courier or official designated as group leader,

- by audio-visual means (e.g. video),

- by signs and/or the pictogram established by the Member States in accordance with the Community design in the Annex, prominently displayed at every seating position.";

As you can see there is no age 12 requirement. Infact age 12 isn't and never was specifically written into domestic law, just the directive which is now amended.

Both these directives and the 2014 directive have been implemented/transpositioned into Irish law, but the huge problem with referencing to EU Directives in Irish law is the Gardaí arn't always aware of such changes without specifically reading the EU Directive as opposed to Irish law.

If a Guard did try do you for having an 11 year old for example then once the child satisfied the height/weight requirements then such a case would have to be thrown out.

GM228

sunny2004 wrote: »

I have no idea, I'm assuming he was simplifying the regulations as I am neither a Garda or solicitor.

I supplied the phone numbers if you wish to get clarification.

I enquired with my brother and he confirmed there is no age 12 requirement under law.

He said the "general rule" is in relation to the idea that the 36kg weight is not the average weight for a 12 year old, the rule is in relation to the use of a suitable car seat/booster.

Under law an offence would be based on weight and height and not actually age in relation to car seats/boosters.

Truckermal

I bring my daughter who is 5 in the front of my car all the time but the seat is about 3 feet from the dashboard.

_Kaiser_

So in a related question....

My little fella is now 4 and it's time to move him into one of the high-backed booster seats. The current (up to 4 years) one is a Maxi Cosi and has been grand (as well as easy to fit compared to the Britax one in his Nanny's car), but just wondering what people here are using/would recommend?

I'll need 2 - one to fit an A6 and the other for a small hatchback (the name of which escapes me now - think it's a Hyundai). Reason I say that is the Maxi Cosi didn't fit as well in the smaller car apparently, hence why they got the Britax.

Cheers!

Jesus.

sunny2004 wrote: »

The next part shocked me...

Some folk are easily shocked

sunny2004

Jesus. wrote: »

Some folk are easily shocked

You cant beat boards for people taking things out of context

sunny2004

Truckermal wrote: »

I bring my daughter who is 5 in the front of my car all the time but the seat is about 3 feet from the dashboard.

Based on what I was told by the Traffic division that is illegal, but you wont in fact get done for it if she is in the appropriate booster/ car seat.

But as I have stated, I'm suggesting others investigate it themselves..

Story Bud?

CiniO wrote: »

It's not just kids... I see passengers having their feet on dashboard (right on the airbag) fairly often.... People are just silly.
I'd say most don't even understand the consequences, including drivers allowing kids to do it.

There's toyota ad on the TV at the minute and there's a young girl with her feet up on the dashboard in it. Does my nut in every time I see it.

GM228

sunny2004 wrote: »

Based on what I was told by the Traffic division that is illegal, but you wont in fact get done for it if she is in the appropriate booster/ car seat.

But as I have stated, I'm suggesting others investigate it themselves..

I also checked with my brother (who double checked with a colleague in Dublin Castle) and he says that the general rule in which the traffic division made reference to is in relation to requirements for using a child seat or booster, not a law on using the front seat.

The only law with regards to the front seat as I mentioned and as per statute is in relation to vehicles with no seatbelts.

sunny2004

GM228 wrote: »

I also checked with my brother (who double checked with a colleague in Dublin Castle) and he says that the general rule in which the traffic division made reference to is in relation to requirements for using a child seat or booster, not a law on using the front seat.

The only law with regards to the front seat as I mentioned and as per statute is in relation to vehicles with no seatbelts.

As its the internet, and I don't know your brother, and I was on the phone myself, I will refer others who have any reason to need the facts to seek advice from a solicitor(costly) , or call the GARDA . Traffic division 01- 6669800 as I did.. The Garda as I stated in post 57 seemed well informed and was very specific that my enquiry outlaid in the OP would make me in breech of the law.

gctest50

trixychic wrote: »

Oh my God I always put my feet up. It has never even occured to me about the airbag............

It's way worse than you'd think, the airbag inflates so fast it'll drive your feet through through the windscreen if you have them on top of the dash or if you have them on the "front" of the dash it'll try and drive them through your head


On top of the dash :

Actual aftermath :

Warning : contains photos of foot half amputated by airbag / road

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/02/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-trauma-surgeon-get-your-foot-off-of-my-dash/

As the passenger frontal bag deployed, it pushed Carol’s foot through the windshield and her toes were amputated as the vehicle slid on its roof, dragging her foot across the hot summer asphalt.

On the "front" of the dash :

http://driving.ca/pontiac/sunfire/auto-news/news/chilling-reminder-not-to-put-your-feet-up-on-the-dashboard

A deployed airbag inflates at about 320 km/h.This is what hit Bethany’s hamstrings, driving her knees into her face.
Her left eye socket broken
and cheekbone was broken
her nose was broken
Her jaw was dislocated,
a tooth cut through her lower lip
she would lose her spleen.
Both feet were broken and compressed, and would eventually end up nearly 2 sizes smaller than they were before the crash.
Her left pupil would remain permanently dilated affecting her vision,
her hearing would remain altered
and her memory would be wiped and rebooted like a faulty computer program.
and a brain bleed.

blond45

Dundalkian wrote: »

I was joking. I think theres a height limit but the chances of being stopped by the gardaí cause of it are extremely slim and i doubt they would do anything more than tell you not to do it again.

in that case i need a seat booster to,,was in smith one day and i [ just for a laugh] measured my height in the kids area to see if i needed car booster and low and behold i do..i am 5'2....saw one day a child hanging out the side window while parent was messing with his fone,child was directly behind driver seat clearly not belted in..if i did get out and told him about not belting the child up i would have got some abuse thrown at me.:o

Jesus.

GM228 wrote: »

I enquired with my brother...

GM228 wrote: »

I also checked with my brother...

Could you please stop that?

GM228

Jesus. wrote: »

Could you please stop that?

Stop what exactly?