Top Spanish matador Victor Barrio gored to death in arena live on TV

Jawgap

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I saw cock fighting when I was in the Philippines. Gruesome stuff.
It originated in Ireland according to the locals so I was somewhat of a celebrity.

It is shown on TV there too

Cockfighting (and even partridge and quail fighting) were a feature of ancient Greece and Rome.

Jawgap

fryup wrote: »

has the catholic church in Spain ever come out and condemned Bullfighting??

I'm sure there's a Papal Bull about it

timthumbni

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Why aren't people outraged at people killing and torturing fish for their own pleasure yet they are with bullfighting.There is no difference between the 2 but one just happens to be a trendier cause.

Fish are caught then either eaten or put back on the most part. And I don't necessarily agree with that either.

Anyway watching a large mammal like a bull being taunted and killed in a stadium is so a few centuries ago.

I suppose you have no problem with badger baiting, dog fighting either then. Sure it's only a bit of craic isn't it?

Hotei

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Why aren't people outraged at people killing and torturing fish for their own pleasure yet they are with bullfighting.There is no difference between the 2 but one just happens to be a trendier cause.

This is a silly post.

hannible the cannible

I just had a watch of it on live leak , I can't find it in me to feel sympathy for anyone who gets hurt or killed doing this , take a look at the video and see the condition of the bull with swords sticking out of its neck and blood running down his shoulders , it's a fight and not a fair fight that .

The bull got slaughtered in the end but at least it went out fighting , good job bull

dsaint1

Yep, just watched it on liveleak too, a clear case of self defence on behalf of the bull...

vmb

Bullfigthing is a shame for Spain.

Its support has decreased A LOT there but it still moves a lot of money

I know only one person who likes it under 35, but maybe in the south of Spain is more popular

What happened is sad, but it's even more sad every bull killed just for fun

Dirty Dingus McGee

Hotei wrote: »

This is a silly post.

OK.


There is no difference.Animal suffers pain as part of entertainment.

It's just one is apparently a more noble cause than the other.

fryup

isn't there some festival in spain in which they throw goats off towers ??

conorhal

fryup wrote: »

isn't there some festival in spain in which they throw goats off towers ??

They have all kinds of mad festivals in Spain from pelting each other with tomatoes to flinging goats off towers, they like their traditions there and you have to admire how rich in tradition their culture is. Anybody see the one where towns and villages compete to build the tallest human pyramids? Right at the top (about 40 feet in the air) is where the little kids goes!
The Spanish give zero fukks about health and safety that's for sure!

I'm sure the bull fighter accepted the risks and was prepared to take them.

Fleawuss

I'm curious about things I don't understand: what is the entertainment in bullfighting? Is it a celebration and promotion of manliness? Courage? Defiance of death? Species domination? Is it rooted in the same thing that makes two men climb into a ring to beat each other senseless? Rugby players "putting their bodies on the line"?
Is it about meeting death with style and risking all in the encounter?

Pawwed Rig

timthumbni wrote: »

Ok. So you were treated like a "celebrity". Big balls.... ;-)

Probably a very minor one so..........

In short your post was refuted so now you attack the poster haha

Armchair Andy

Just watched it there. That was a long slow painful death. You could see the shock in his eyes before realising he's fvcked.

The_Mac

Fleawuss wrote: »

I'm curious about things I don't understand: what is the entertainment in bullfighting? Is it a celebration and promotion of manliness? Courage? Defiance of death? Species domination? Is it rooted in the same thing that makes two men climb into a ring to beat each other senseless? Rugby players "putting their bodies on the line"?
Is it about meeting death with style and risking all in the encounter?

As someone who enjoys watching the sport from time to time, the skill and agility of the matadors is really something to behold. You're going against a beast that with one mis-step will easily kill you. It takes some balls.

Of course, this being boards, people only see the cruelty in it and seem happy that a man is now dead. The same people probably eat meat on a daily basis and think nothing of it.

Wibbs

The_Mac wrote: »

As someone who enjoys watching the sport from time to time, the skill and agility of the matadors is really something to behold. You're going against a beast that with one mis-step will easily kill you. It takes some balls.

It does and it doesn't. Let's be realistic here. How many bull fights go on annually? How many matadors have been killed in the last century? How many bulls? It's beyond one sided. It's a 99.999% foregone conclusion. It can afford to be balletic and theatrical simply because it is so one sided and a foregone rehearsed conclusion. If these matadors were being offed one a month like 1970's Formula One racing drivers then I'd be grand with it, but they're not. Being an electrician is riskier. Hell being a farmer is riskier. How many farmers in Spain are killed annually by bulls? I'd bet my hat it's far more than matadors. And I am not one of these "uuugh all manly pursuits are wrong" eejits. IMH there ain't enough of them of late. Need more testosterone in the culture in general, but this bull "fighting" isn't it.

Of course, this being boards, people only see the cruelty in it and seem happy that a man is now dead. The same people probably eat meat on a daily basis and think nothing of it

Aye, well there would be more than a little hypocrisy there alright.

Donnielighto

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

All the high and mighty brigade should spend an afternoon in an abatoir to see what animal suffering is. Or go to a chicken production plant.

Been in an abattoir, have you? I have a few times as we get our own animals slaughtered. The bullfighting is definitely more stressful for the animal than when they are slaughtered for meat, the butcher/slaughterman doesn't take pleasure in making the making the suffer unlike bullfighters.

Donnielighto

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

No thanks. I don't like seeing animals suffer.
Plenty of animals suffering in Ireland btw. When you get a whole chicken for €5 in Tesco you can assume it has had a horrible life.
Only difference is that one has spectators.

What price would alleviate your worries?

Donnielighto

I don't have sympathy for sport at all. For the individuals yes but not the sport as a whole.

Pawwed Rig

Donnielighto wrote: »

What price would alleviate your worries?

I don't have worries. I'm just not a hypocrite weeping for Spanish bulls while having no concerns for animals tortured and killed elsewhere.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Donnielighto wrote: »

Been in an abattoir, have you? I have a few times as we get our own animals slaughtered. The bullfighting is definitely more stressful for the animal than when they are slaughtered for meat, the butcher/slaughterman doesn't take pleasure in making the making the suffer unlike bullfighters.

I believe I read somewhere that cows actually like being killed.

Fleawuss

Wibbs wrote: »

It does and it doesn't. Let's be realistic here. How many bull fights go on annually? How many matadors have been killed in the last century? How many bulls? It's beyond one sided. It's a 99.999% foregone conclusion. It can afford to be balletic and theatrical simply because it is so one sided and a foregone rehearsed conclusion. If these matadors were being offed one a month like 1970's Formula One racing drivers then I'd be grand with it, but they're not. Being an electrician is riskier. Hell being a farmer is riskier. How many farmers in Spain are killed annually by bulls? I'd bet my hat it's far more than matadors. And I am not one of these "uuugh all manly pursuits are wrong" eejits. IMH there ain't enough of them of late. Need more testosterone in the culture in general, but this bull "fighting" isn't it.

Aye, well there would be more than a little hypocrisy there alright.

Obviously it is not a foregone conclusion. Asserting it is rehearsed is just wrong: bulls don't do rehearsal. Or choreography. It may be riskier in certain occupations but that probably tells you more about risk management in those occupations than anything else.

Like it or not it is courageous. It may well be cruel and inhumane but it takes serious nerve to stand within inches of a quarter ton of bull rushing past inches away. I'm not saying that makes it right or acceptable. But it is rooted in something deep in the male psyche.

You rightly point to formula 1 racing. We like games with the possibility of death. We like to watch others play those games. Maybe rather than claiming its "justice for the bull" we might think about whether part of the game is enjoying being the spectator who survives.

hairyslug

If you can some how make it a more even fight then l MAY get on board.

There is a big difference between an animal getting a single bolt to the head and being used for food to one being slowly killed for "sport"

SEPT 23 1989

A more fairer scrap between man and beast

only one winner

NIMAN

Spain has a lot of crazy festivals and rituals. Such as trying to rip the head of a bird, and guys jumping over newborn babies.

Then again I'm sure if you looked hard enough most countries do.

If something is going for hundreds of years, at what point should it be stopped?
Who decides it should stop?

Sure wouldn't some people say religion/Mass etc is a crazy and stupid ritual?

Samaris

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I don't have worries. I'm just not a hypocrite weeping for Spanish bulls while having no concerns for animals tortured and killed elsewhere.

There is a bit of whataboutery to that point of view, although I can see where you're speaking from.

Humans are generally omnivores, and we eat animals. This is how things have been. Because there are so many of us, and so few of us raise our own food, slaughterhouses are kinda a neccessity if people are going to continue eating meat as we are designed to.

There is a whole sub-argument about whether we can get by without meat and whether we have a moral obligation to, but just taking this as is at the moment. We place plenty of rules into the slaughtering industry for the care of the animals and ensuring they don't suffer. There is a second sub-argument about halal killing and how other places in the world do it too, but again, I'm going to leave that a bit to the side as most of the "meat-eaters" are talking from the more usual methods of Irish slaughterhouses (and probably the UK too).

My point is there is a very specific line of reasoning between raise animal - kill animal - eat animal. With bullfighting, it's ...raise animal - place animal into ridiculously cruel situation and terrify and anger it - kill animal inhumanely for sport. It's really far closer to something like fox-hunting than whether or not we eat animals.

I am sorry about the loss of a human life. I'm sorry for the kids who saw someone get brutally killed in front of them. I'm even sorry for the adults who thought they were going to see a bull be killed and instead saw a human gored to death (although I'm rather less sorry for them than for the rest). And I don't agree with bullfighting, I think it's barbaric and cruel (as is foxhunting, although at least the foxhunters are generally unable to -catch- foxes these days) and if it was banned tomorrow, my response would be "Good".

Samaris

Left it a bit long to edit, but just going to add that the same goes for fox-hunting, badger-baiting, cock-fighting, rat/terrier fights and tying cats tails together to make them fight, although that one seems to have rightfully died out.

timthumbni

timthumbni wrote: »

I don't subscribe to your point of view at all.

People who watch and enjoy an animal sufferings so so called sport are the lowest of the low imo.

I can't pretend to be a fan of bullfighting, but think it's a bit more nuanced then that. If people wanted to simply watch animals being killed, they'd visit the abattoir. It's a culture, a spectacle, probably an element of machismo, pitting a man against tons of animal flesh and the whole unpredictability. I watch pro bull riding the odd time, and while I sneer at a lot of posturing and the whole Conor McGregor look at me narcissism around these days, those guys are pretty tough and they put their bodies on the line.

Samaris

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't pretend to be a fan of bullfighting, but think it's a bit more nuanced then that. If people wanted to simply watch animals being killed, they'd visit the abattoir. It's a culture, a spectacle, probably an element of machismo, pitting a man against tons of animal flesh and the whole unpredictability. I watch pro bull riding the odd time, and while I sneer at a lot of posturing and the whole Conor McGregor look at me narcissism around these days, those guys are pretty tough and they put their bodies on the line.

I don't know that it IS much more nuanced when you look at it from the perspective of the bull being dragged into it. Sure, the guys that kill the bull or ride the bull or run away from the bull (some of them anyway :P) are all skilled and work to be in good physical shape. But the reason for it just seems utterly stupid. I can admire that someone was able to pull off a feat of skill without getting themselves marmalised, but when an animal has to suffer and die for the sake of their showing off how good they are at it, I still lean towards the "pillock" side of things, even if it's very skilled pillockry.

Nermal

The_Mac wrote: »

Of course, this being boards, people only see the cruelty in it and seem happy that a man is now dead. The same people probably eat meat on a daily basis and think nothing of it.

I don't torture animals before eating them. I buy free-range chicken.

I'm happy this scumbag got his comeuppance.

The_Mac

Nermal wrote: »

I don't torture animals before eating them. I buy free-range chicken.

I'm happy this scumbag got his comeuppance.

"Scumbag"

I'm surprised you can see him six feed under from how high you are on that horse.

funkey_monkey

I take no pleasure in knowing that bulls are killed in this 'sport', but unlike quite a few others I also take no pleasure in the death of the matador.

I know quite a few Spanish people and bullfighting is a tradition that is slowly on its way out. It is getting marginalised and will eventually consigned to history.

I could possibly live with its existence though if the death and spearing of the animal was removed - and basically left it as a game of chicken between the two. But I'd prefer it to be outlawed completely. However, when you are dealing with tradition people tend to cling on very closely.

funkey_monkey

Nermal wrote: »

I don't torture animals before eating them. I buy free-range chicken.

I'm happy this scumbag got his comeuppance.

"Free range" - LOL. That can be anything from a small opening in a 70ft shed to Farmer Giles aul hen.

You haven't a clue. Anyone I know who has been in an environment where chickens have been reared, killed or processed has said it was off-putting!

Samaris

Samaris wrote: »

I don't know that it IS much more nuanced when you look at it from the perspective of the bull being dragged into it. Sure, the guys that kill the bull or ride the bull or run away from the bull (some of them anyway :P) are all skilled and work to be in good physical shape. But the reason for it just seems utterly stupid. I can admire that someone was able to pull off a feat of skill without getting themselves marmalised, but when an animal has to suffer and die for the sake of their showing off how good they are at it, I still lean towards the "pillock" side of things, even if it's very skilled pillockry.

I guess anything dangerous can be reduced to saying it's stupid...because of course it is. Whether it be a man hanging off a cliff face in the death zone, or boxers pounding each other, or the matador facing a charging bull. It can also be seen as beautiful, Hemingway (again, I know) said bullfighting was an art, the adrenaline and fear and sweat, the risks, the blood on the canvas or sand, the threat of dying, the danger. Bullfighting is not for me, but I do appreciate why others like it.

Nermal

Nermal wrote: »

I don't torture animals before eating them. I buy free-range chicken.

I'm happy this scumbag got his comeuppance.

Is that a joke?

You do know free range is really just a turn of phrase, an advertising tool. Afaik, you can have a dozen chickens in a square metre cage and still use the label once you have some open space that, in theory they can wander around and peck. Not that they can peck, as of course their beaks are removed early. And not that they are actually brought outside at all.

Discodog

There is still a deep, nasty sickness in Spain regarding animal welfare. This is what they do to greyhounds:

WSPA also learnt how dogs that have raced poorly are typically hung low in a slow death known as 'the piano player' due to the frantic scrabbling of their legs in a vain attempt to touch the ground. Those who have raced well are hung high, resulting in a quicker death. Unwanted galgos may also be stoned, tied up and left to starve, staked in a pond and left to drown or thrown into wells and set on fire.

http://www.scoobymedina.org/en/about_us/hanging_horror.html

Pawwed Rig

Discodog wrote: »

There is still a deep, nasty sickness in Spain regarding animal welfare. This is what they do to greyhounds:

We haven't a great record in relation to greyhounds and lurchers in this country either. Talk to any SPCA rep and they will tell you stories.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Why are people calling it a sport? It's far from a sport. Taunting an animal in order to try and provoke it into attacking you in not a sport. The idiot doing it got killed and has no one to blame but himself.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Why are people calling it a sport? It's far from a sport. Taunting an animal in order to try and provoke it into attacking you in not a sport. The idiot doing it got killed and has no one to blame but himself.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/8916880/To-the-Spanish-bullfighting-is-much-more-than-a-sport.html

Discodog

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

We haven't a great record in relation to greyhounds and lurchers in this country either. Talk to any SPCA rep and they will tell you stories.

Oh I know I have a rescue Greyhound & without going off topic, Bord na Gcon don't give a damn. The only organisation where the Data Commissioner had to physically go there & search for files.

But I think that there would be outrage if we hung them from lamp posts as is the custom in Spain.

I recall a program about Salvadore Dali where he explained how he threw cats off of a tower so that they could experience flying like birds.

Samaris

Deleted User wrote: »

I guess anything dangerous can be reduced to saying it's stupid...because of course it is. Whether it be a man hanging off a cliff face in the death zone, or boxers pounding each other, or the matador facing a charging bull. It can also be seen as beautiful, Hemingway (again, I know) said bullfighting was an art, the adrenaline and fear and sweat, the risks, the blood on the canvas or sand, the threat of dying, the danger. Bullfighting is not for me, but I do appreciate why others like it.

Oh, it can, and I very much appreciate the skill and beauty of, say, gymnastics. But it's when something that cannot agree to the conditions is forced into it for the fun of a baying crowd that I don't think the beauty is worth the suffering.

Donnielighto

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I believe I read somewhere that cows actually like being killed.

You are saying/implying that the two things are the same. I have raised animals myself, cared for them when sick and bottle fed lambs where a ewe has died or doesn't have milk. I'm saying that the torture bit of this is what makes it bad.

Do you consider it as bad a raising animals for meat and having them slaughtered?


Edit: I didn't imply anything like that cack handed response from you. I said that one was intentionally stressing out the animal while the other is something that is needed for people, ignore the actual point again if ya want.

Donnielighto

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I don't have worries. I'm just not a hypocrite weeping for Spanish bulls while having no concerns for animals tortured and killed elsewhere.

So it isn't the price that's the issue why bring it up? The torture is what a lot of the people have an issue with, it is the manner of the kill which include torture, do you see any difference between this and the animals raised for food? (factory farmed animals which is mainly pigs/chickens I don't agree with btw)

funkey_monkey

Would people accept it if the gore element was removed and it became a battle of wits - slightly akin to rodeos in the USA?

Is that the middle ground?

Donnielighto

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't pretend to be a fan of bullfighting, but think it's a bit more nuanced then that. If people wanted to simply watch animals being killed, they'd visit the abattoir. It's a culture, a spectacle, probably an element of machismo, pitting a man against tons of animal flesh and the whole unpredictability. I watch pro bull riding the odd time, and while I sneer at a lot of posturing and the whole Conor McGregor look at me narcissism around these days, those guys are pretty tough and they put their bodies on the line.

None of the bolder bit justifies it. And regarding witnessing suffering simply going to an abattoir there is much more suffering for the animal in the ring you're being obtuse if you don't acknowledge that.

Donnielighto

funkey_monkey wrote: »

"Free range" - LOL. That can be anything from a small opening in a 70ft shed to Farmer Giles aul hen.

You haven't a clue. Anyone I know who has been in an environment where chickens have been reared, killed or processed has said it was off-putting!

We rear and kill our own, they're fine but you've hit on something with the vagueness. The you haven't a clue bit was either unwarranted or else applies to you as you are just going on second hand knowledge yourself.

Donnielighto

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/8916880/To-the-Spanish-bullfighting-is-much-more-than-a-sport.html

Is that reason to justify something?

steddyeddy

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

All the high and mighty brigade should spend an afternoon in an abatoir to see what animal suffering is. Or go to a chicken production plant.

Food VS suffering for entertainment.

Donnielighto

Donnielighto wrote: »

None of the bolder bit justifies it. And regarding witnessing suffering simply going to an abattoir there is much more suffering for the animal in the ring you're being obtuse if you don't acknowledge that.

You spectacularly missed the point.

I was not comparing the suffering at all. Someone suggested people go to bullfighting to see animals killed, and I merely pointed out that if that was their only motivation than they'd be queuing up at the slaughterhouse.

Donnielighto

Donnielighto wrote: »

Is that reason to justify something?

Again, you missed the point.

Someone said it wasn't a sport. I linked an article by someone who claimed it was more than a sport, and whose book on bullfighting was nominated as best sports book. I didn't claim that particular book justified anything...I haven't even read it!

Dempsey

I dont understand why animals are put down when their exploitation backfires on the people that are trying to make money out of their misery.