Top Spanish matador Victor Barrio gored to death in arena live on TV

weisses

weisses wrote: »

I admit I chuckled when he was gored ..served him right.

Disturbing.

Because I suspect even the most ardent bullfighting fans do not "chuckle" about the death of the bull.

Yet the death of a human amuses you.

weisses

Deleted User wrote: »

Disturbing.

Because I suspect even the most ardent bullfighting fans do not "chuckle" about the death of the bull.

Yet the death of a human amuses you.

In certain circumstances yes ... And bullfighting is one of them

Pamplona the same ...The more injuries the better

BetsyEllen

Deleted User wrote: »

Disturbing.

Because I suspect even the most ardent bullfighting fans do not "chuckle" about the death of the bull.

No but they pay money to see it, are entertained by it and cheer when the bull is finally dead.
Do you not see anything disturbing about that?

I personally wouldn't chuckle at the death of a Matador, I just wouldn't mourn or grieve them.

lee_baby_simms

weisses wrote: »

In certain circumstances yes ... And bullfighting is one of them

Pamplona the same ...The more injuries the better

Very Morrissey-esque.

Essentially then you're comfortable with the death penalty for animal cruelty?

lee_baby_simms

BetsyEllen wrote: »

I personally wouldn't chuckle at the death of a Matador, I just wouldn't mourn or grieve them.

You're just quietly delighted so.

weisses

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

Very Morrissey-esque.

Essentially then you're comfortable with the death penalty for animal cruelty?

I could warm up to that idea yes.

Same goes for murderers, rapists, child molesters etc .... Easy way to get rid of that scum

weisses

weisses wrote: »

I could warm up to that idea yes.

Same goes for murderers, rapists, child molesters etc .... Easy way to get rid of that scum

Dear God.

Someone got a reference to paedophiles in.

Thread is descending into a mess...

BetsyEllen

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

You're just quietly delighted so.

Not quietly, I'm happy to speak about it.
Have you read all of my comments? Do you understand why I feel that way?

It's not as though he was a man walking down the street, minding his own business and a bull came out of nowhere and viciously attacked him.
If that was the story my first thoughts would be 'Oh my God, that poor man and his poor family - what an awful tragedy'. But those were not the circumstances.
He was paid to cause suffering to animals, how many have died at his hands?
And now he has been killed by an animal that was protecting its own life, there is suddenly an outpour of grief on his behalf?

Do you condone bull fighting?

weisses

Deleted User wrote: »

Thread is descending into a mess...

No that started when you brought in the Angler

loveisdivine

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

What life would the bull have had without bull fighting?

Truth be known (and something that vegans
don't discuss) is that cattle, pigs and chicken would be virtually extinct if people didn't eat them

Actually at a local vegan meet up I was at recently we discussed it at length. We were all pretty much agreed that most commercial breeds of meat animals are so far removed from how they would have been naturally, excessive growth rates, legs that can't hold they're abnormally large bodies, excessive milk production etc that it would be in the animal's best interest to let commercial breeds die out.

I'm vegan and my personal opinion would be that if it meant no more meat production at all, I would be ok with any currently living farm animals (that can't be cared for in a sanctuary) being culled. If it ends the suffering for good, then it's worth it. But I know a lot of other vegans wouldn't agree with me on this point.

PopePalpatine

Is it wrong that I'm wondering if "Manos" (the bull's name) will get a Lamborghini named after him?

smash

The bull was called Maños, according to El Mundo, and weighed 529 kilos.

I guess we know what the next Lamborghini will be called now.

lee_baby_simms

BetsyEllen wrote: »

Not quietly, I'm happy to speak about it.
Have you read all of my comments? Do you understand why I feel that way?

It's not as though he was a man walking down the street, minding his own business and a bull came out of nowhere and viciously attacked him.
If that was the story my first thoughts would be 'Oh my God, that poor man and his poor family - what an awful tragedy'. But those were not the circumstances.
He was paid to cause suffering to animals, how many have died at his hands?
And now he has been killed by an animal that was protecting its own life, there is suddenly an outpour of grief on his behalf?

Do you condone bull fighting?

No I don't, it's not a binary argument. It's possible to oppose something without going to the opposite extreme. It's one of the reasons we're higher than animals in the food chain.

I find bullfighting to be an outdated, barbaric and medieval practice...rather like this:

weisses wrote: »

I could warm up to that idea yes.

Same goes for murderers, rapists, child molesters etc .... Easy way to get rid of that scum

Wibbs

rjpf1980 wrote: »

A human being is always more important than any animal.

I'm no vegan hippie type, but I'd not agree with that. As it stands there are too damned many humans on the planet. Our population growth and consumption isn't sustainable. Animals and plants are going extinct on a weekly basis. Whole ecosystems are being decimated. We're observing one of the largest extinction events in the planet's history and it's down to too many naked great apes around the place. Given the eeny meeny miney mo between the average human mouth breather and an African elephant, or giant panda or whatever it would be a hard choice TBH.

BetsyEllen

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

No I don't, it's not a binary argument. It's possible to oppose something without going to the opposite extreme. It's one of the reasons we're higher than animals in the food chain.

I find bullfighting to be an outdated, barbaric and medieval practice...rather like this:

Ok. But if you find it a barbaric practice, how can you feel sympathy for somebody who actively took part in it?
I am not trying to pick an argument with you, I am genuinely curious of how you can feel sad at the death of a person that was so cruel, when you have said yourself it's barbaric.

allthedoyles

he matador was wearing red , - not such a good idea since the apron was red too .
He was like waving a red rag to a bull .

smash

The thing about the debate on the 'sport' is that the Spanish fighting bull is a specific breed, which is bread solely for fighting. To ban bull fighting would in turn make this species extinct.

lee_baby_simms

BetsyEllen wrote: »

Ok. But if you find it a barbaric practice, how can you feel sympathy for somebody who actively took part in it?
I am not trying to pick an argument with you, I am genuinely curious of how you can feel sad at the death of a person that was so cruel, when you have said yourself it's barbaric.

Well I feel sorry for his wife and family...

I think what he was doing was despicable but I find celebrating his death a little unsettling.

BetsyEllen

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

Well I feel sorry for his wife and family...

I think what he was doing was despicable but I find celebrating his death a little unsettling.

I'm not celebrating his death at all, I'm just pleased that there is one less person on this earth that takes pleasure in causing harm to animals.
If he has a wife and kids (I've read nothing about him) then I can sympathise with their pain at losing him but not enough to make me feel saddened by his death.

Samaris

BetsyEllen wrote: »

Ok. But if you find it a barbaric practice, how can you feel sympathy for somebody who actively took part in it?
I am not trying to pick an argument with you, I am genuinely curious of how you can feel sad at the death of a person that was so cruel, when you have said yourself it's barbaric.

I said much the same as the person you're replying to and yeah, I think the loss of a life is to be regretted, whether or not I agree with his sport*. I doubt he was a particularly bad person, it's an accepted practice over there, even if slowly dying out. I find some of the practices involving animal slaughter in China repugnant, but I wouldn't be pleased at the deaths of a whole bunch of Chinese slaughterhouse workers either!

*I don't, I also find it barbaric and cruel.

smash

Samaris wrote: »

I said much the same as the person you're replying to and yeah, I think the loss of a life is to be regretted, whether or not I agree with his sport

The majority of people don't assign a generic value to a life. Some people will care, others wont. The fact that the man participated in a practice that a lot of people despise will mean that the value that people will place on his life will vary greatly so there's no point in anyone arguing about it really. It happened, some will say he deserved it, others wont.

Samaris

smash wrote: »

The majority of people don't assign a generic value to a life. Some people will care, others wont. The fact that the man participated in a practice that a lot of people despise will mean that the value that people will place on his life will vary greatly so there's no point in anyone arguing about it really. It happened, some will say he deserved it, others wont.

Oh, true, but when the debate comes up, people may as well put both sides forward!

IvyTheTerrible

There is a well-known French song called La Corrida which is sung from the point of view of the bull, I find it very emotional:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1ET6SEtwbc

You can read the translated lyrics here: http://muzikum.eu/en/127-6372-215403/francis-cabrel/la-corrida-english-translation.html

smash

Samaris wrote: »

Oh, true, but when the debate comes up, people may as well put both sides forward!

Oh yea, put your side forward by all means but it will be difficult for some people to find sympathy. Personally I feel sorry for his family but not necessarily for him. Bull fighting is a very one sided battle and he lost which is rare, but non the less, he stepped in a ring with an unpredictable animal. If there wasn't the possibility of being mutilated or killed then it wouldn't be called bull fighting, it would just be called bull killing.

old_aussie

I have no sympathy for the bull fighter what so ever!

It was an unfair fight in that the matador provoked a wild animal and this time the bull won.

And for those bull runners that got gored, not one bit of sympathy for them either, they took up the challenge and lost.

smash

old_aussie wrote: »

It was an unfair fight in that the matador provoked a wild animal and this time the bull won.

It's never a fair fight. Well not for the bull anyway because it's drugged up to the skies. The only way to look at it is to say either the bull was lucky or the matador was unlucky.

BetsyEllen

smash wrote: »

It's never a fair fight. Well not for the bull anyway because it's drugged up to the skies. The only way to look at it is to say either the bull was lucky or the matador was unlucky.

Pretty sure the bull was 'destroyed' after the fight anyway, so I would say that no one was lucky in this instance

jmayo

The Prairie Oysters were not up to their usual standard the other night that's for sure.

BTW do people realise the mother of the bull is also slaughtered to kill off the bloodline.

BetsyEllen

jmayo wrote: »

BTW do people realise the mother of the bull is also slaughtered to kill off the bloodline.

Found that out a moment ago...it's beyond sad and unnecessary.

smash

jmayo wrote: »

BTW do people realise the mother of the bull is also slaughtered to kill off the bloodline.

BetsyEllen wrote: »

Found that out a moment ago...it's beyond sad and unnecessary.

While disagreeing with bull fighting, I'll reiterate my previous post:

smash wrote:

The thing about the debate on the 'sport' is that the Spanish fighting bull is a specific breed, which is bread solely for fighting. To ban bull fighting would in turn make this species extinct.

BetsyEllen

I would rather an species be extinct than exist and be tortured!

lertsnim

timthumbni wrote: »

The fact that this was broadcast live on Spanish tv apparently is crazy.

They have a tv channel dedicated to it

smash

BetsyEllen wrote: »

I would rather an species be extinct than exist and be tortured!

You could say the same about most breeds of dogs. These days there's a huge list of species who are all engineered to look a certain way and that comes with a price to their health.

Donnielighto

Deleted User wrote: »

Well certainly the bulls in bullfighting seem to have a better existence than factory farmed animals.

I'm not sure about the dismissal of bullfighters as "some dopey spaniards". The bullfighters in Mexico, France etc. might not like it for starters!

1 can you back that up
2 what is the proportion of factory farmed cattle in Ireland
3 Is that just whataboutery?

Donnielighto

Jawgap wrote: »

Anyone who knows anything about slaughtering knows the animals need minimal stress before hand. Any stress depletes their glycogen stores which means pretty sh1tty meat (because the glycogen converts to lactic acid post mortem which tenderises the muscle/meat naturally), meaning poor prices. The market rewards humane slaughter because it yields higher quality.

Actually that's not accurate, for beef anyway. If cattle are stressed when slaughter the meat is of a better quality but looks worse (get less for it due to visuals), either way it isn't allowed.

Donnielighto

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, you missed the point.

Someone said it wasn't a sport. I linked an article by someone who claimed it was more than a sport, and whose book on bullfighting was nominated as best sports book. I didn't claim that particular book justified anything...I haven't even read it!

So you posted something in response but it wasn't a point? What was the reason for you posting it. Should we get you to state explicitly what you mean as it appears you may just throw things out for them to be picked up a certain way. I'm asking the question so that it's clear I haven't picked you up the wrong way.

Donnielighto

Deleted User wrote: »

You spectacularly missed the point.

I was not comparing the suffering at all. Someone suggested people go to bullfighting to see animals killed, and I merely pointed out that if that was their only motivation than they'd be queuing up at the slaughterhouse.

The point in that case wasn't communicated well. You said that if people wanted to see suffering then they'd go to an abattoir, I was pointing out that they are not the same thing. Sure if you just want to knock around on the internet making asinine points you could have an argument on twitter.

Also you spectacularly missed the main bit of my post (the first line)

Jawgap

Donnielighto wrote: »

Actually that's not accurate, for beef anyway. If cattle are stressed when slaughter the meat is of a better quality but looks worse (get less for it due to visuals), either way it isn't allowed.

Actually, you need to take it up with the FAO......

Guidelines for Humane Handling, Transport and Slaughter of Livestock....

The energy required for muscle activity in the live animal is obtained from sugars (glycogen) in the muscle. In the healthy and well-rested animal, the glycogen content of the muscle is high. After the animal has been slaughtered, the glycogen in the muscle is converted into lactic acid, and the muscle and carcass becomes firm (rigor mortis).

This lactic acid is necessary to produce meat, which is tasteful and tender, of good keeping quality and good colour. If the animal is stressed before and during slaughter, the glycogen is used up, and the lactic acid level that develops in the meat after slaughter is reduced. This will have serious adverse effects on meat quality.

Shenshen

smash wrote: »

While disagreeing with bull fighting, I'll reiterate my previous post:

The breed, yes. The species? Not so much - we'll still have bulls and cows all over the world.

Donnielighto

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually, you need to take it up with the FAO......

Guidelines for Humane Handling, Transport and Slaughter of Livestock....

Visually it makes it look worse but it creates more tender meat. Not advocating anything just pointing it out. And they are hardly going to sy that stressing out the animals gives nicer meat.


Edit, saw in your initial post that you mentioned about the tenderising, that's where I'm coming from.

colin produces

Any asshole who dies trying to torture and humiliate an innocent animal deserves what he gets.

colin produces

colin produces wrote: »

Any asshole who dies trying to torture and humiliate an innocent animal deserves what he gets.

Knew a man who tried to catch a fish.

He drowned.

You'd enjoy that.

Jawgap

Donnielighto wrote: »

Visually it makes it look worse but it creates more tender meat. Not advocating anything just pointing it out. And they are hardly going to sy that stressing out the animals gives nicer meat.


Edit, saw in your initial post that you mentioned about the tenderising, that's where I'm coming from.

....probably because the research wouldn't back that up

smash

Donnielighto wrote: »

And they are hardly going to sy that stressing out the animals gives nicer meat.

I've tried it and it's as tough as a brick.

Lady is a tramp

I can't say that I'm glad that he's dead, I just think it's sad that he grew up in a culture where this is considered to be an acceptable form of sport/entertainment.

It's just so cowardly. It doesn't take a big brave man to go into that ring when they know that the odds are pretty much always going to be in their favour.

There are no winners here. If anything good were to come out of the fight, it would be if his death somehow brought about changes in the country ... however if anything, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the fans get a secret thrill out of the fact that occasionally the bull might win.

I don't respect the man, but I'm not happy he's dead, and it's absolutely tragic that it happened in front of his wife and parents. Not something I imagine they'll ever get over.

Titzon Toast

Live by the sword, die by the bull.

Donnielighto

Jawgap wrote: »

....probably because the research wouldn't back that up

smash wrote: »

I've tried it and it's as tough as a brick.

Fair enough, will just make two clarifications, 1 this is second hand I was going by and it was specifically that stress just before slaughter causes acids that increase tenderness and taste. It's moot really as it shouldn't happen

Lady is a tramp

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

It's just so cowardly. It doesn't take a big brave man to go into that ring when they know that the odds are pretty much always going to be in their favour.

Ah in fairness, they can sustain horrific goring injuries and they risk being killed.

I certainly would not spend my time drawing a bull closer and closer until they are just circling me. I wouldn't even enter a field with animals like that.

People may think it cruel...but that does not remove the bravery.

Christy42

weisses wrote: »

In certain circumstances yes ... And bullfighting is one of them

Pamplona the same ...The more injuries the better

I was once chatting to a man who said he wanted to run and get injured in the run with the bulls (but not killed obviously). He wanted to get injured (or at least hit by one of the bulls) for the story.

Personally I figure it better not to have the story. No idea if he ever did it or not.

i won't take happiness in this death though. Odds are if the same man had been born elsewhere he would be against bull fighting and I can't guarantee that I would be against it if I was born there. I disagree with the practise though.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

All the high and mighty brigade should spend an afternoon in an abatoir to see what animal suffering is..

I worked in one for two years, there's little (if any) suffering.

As for the matador ~ he knew what he was doing was very dangerous, I won't say 'fook him' because that would be disrespectful to him and what he does. But I will say 'Tough sh*t Paddy :P