When is Discrimination not Discrimiation?

cathorio

I am looking for advise on the following,
I am employed in the Public Sector. Deductions are stopped from my income for my Pension, Pensions Grouped and Spouse & Children (Death).
I am in my 60s single and with no children yet I am forced to contribute to a Spouse & Children Death Benefit Scheme!!
In other words when I die my pension dies with me but if I were married with children they/spouse would inherit it.
Surly this is wrong!
If I am obliged to pay into this scheme I should be entitled to the same rights as married employees!!
Can anyone advise me please??

4ensic15

cathorio wrote: »

I am looking for advise on the following,
I am employed in the Public Sector. Deductions are stopped from my income for my Pension, Pensions Grouped and Spouse & Children (Death).
I am in my 60s single and with no children yet I am forced to contribute to a Spouse & Children Death Benefit Scheme!!
In other words when I die my pension dies with me but if I were married with children they/spouse would inherit it.
Surly this is wrong!
If I am obliged to pay into this scheme I should be entitled to the same rights as married employees!!
Can anyone advise me please??

Children do not inherit a public service pension. Only a widow does or in some cases widowers. The majority of married employees were single when they started paying into the scheme. It can't be forecast when anyone will marry nor whether they will outlive their spouse. Some people are inevitably not going to get anything out of the scheme no matter how much they put in. Others may get quite a lot despite putting in very little.
Its tough but waht else can be done?

cathorio

What infuriates me is that Teachers are given a choice wheater or not to pay into this scheme.
Why aren't all PS employees afforded the same curtsey?

coylemj

OP, I believe that if you are still single when you retire, you can claim a refund of the contributions to the widows and orphans pension. An adjustment will be made to allow for the fact that the contributions were tax-free so you will not get the gross contributions back into your hand.

ezra_pound

4ensic15 wrote: »

Children do not inherit a public service pension. Only a widow does or in some cases widowers. The majority of married employees were single when they started paying into the scheme. It can't be forecast when anyone will marry nor whether they will outlive their spouse. Some people are inevitably not going to get anything out of the scheme no matter how much they put in. Others may get quite a lot despite putting in very little.
Its tough but waht else can be done?

That's not true re children.


16.5 Rates of children's pension under the Scheme vary, depending on
whether or not a spouse's pension is being paid and also on the number of
eligible children:
(a) Where a spouse's pension is in payment and the number of eligible
children is
(i) less than 4

---

1/6th of the deceased's pension for each child,
(ii) 4 or more

---

½ of the deceased's pension divided equally
among the children,
(b) Where a spouse's pension is not in payment (because there is no spouse
or the spouse subsequently dies) and the number of eligible children is
(i) 1

---

⅓ of the deceased's pension,
(ii) 2 or more

---

½ of the deceased's pension divided equally
among the children.
(The rates of pension referred to at (b) above may, at the discretion of the
Minister for Finance, be applied in cases where no spouse’s pension is
payable to the parent of the surviving children or where the deceased
member's children are in the care of a person other than the spouse.)

ezra_pound

coylemj wrote: »

OP, I believe that if you are still single when you retire, you can claim a refund of the contributions to the widows and orphans pension. An adjustment will be made to allow for the fact that the contributions were tax-free so you will not get the gross contributions back into your hand.

I don't believe that.

ezra_pound

cathorio wrote: »

What infuriates me is that Teachers are given a choice wheater or not to pay into this scheme.
Why aren't all PS employees afforded the same curtsey?

For teacher, payment into spouse's and children's pension scheme is compulsory for men appointed on or after 1 July 1969 and women appointed on or after 1 June 1981.


This is pretty much the same as in all sections of the PS.

ezra_pound

cathorio wrote: »

What infuriates me is that Teachers are given a choice wheater or not to pay into this scheme.
Why aren't all PS employees afforded the same curtsey?

If it were true... would it really be infuriating?

ezra_pound

coylemj wrote: »

OP, I believe that if you are still single when you retire, you can claim a refund of the contributions to the widows and orphans pension. An adjustment will be made to allow for the fact that the contributions were tax-free so you will not get the gross contributions back into your hand.

Yes. You are right regarding this, so long as the employee commenced service pre 1june 1986.

ezra_pound

cathorio wrote: »

I am looking for advise on the following,
I am employed in the Public Sector. Deductions are stopped from my income for my Pension, Pensions Grouped and Spouse & Children (Death).
I am in my 60s single and with no children yet I am forced to contribute to a Spouse & Children Death Benefit Scheme!!
In other words when I die my pension dies with me but if I were married with children they/spouse would inherit it.
Surly this is wrong!
If I am obliged to pay into this scheme I should be entitled to the same rights as married employees!!
Can anyone advise me please??

Edit: if you joined the scheme pre1986 you are entitled to a refund of the relevant contributions.

Pat Mustard

Are there any links or references to the rights to refunds which have been quoted?

ezra_pound

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Are there any links or references to the rights to refunds which have been quoted?

This is from the civil service pensions handbook:


"16.1 There are two schemes – the Original Scheme and the Revised
Scheme.
16.2 Employees in the following categories are members of the Revised
Scheme:
(a) all employees appointed on or after 1 June 1986;
(b) members of the Original Scheme who opted to join the Revised
Scheme;
(c) all other employees serving on and after 31 May 1986 who opted to
join the Revised Scheme;
(d) other persons (with at least 5 years’ potential reckonable service to
age 65) who had served as non-established State employees on or
after 1 December 1978 and who opted to join the Revised Scheme.
16.3 Employees in the following categories, who did not opt to join the
Revised Scheme, are members of the Original Scheme:
(a) male employees appointed on or after 1 December 1978 and
before 1 June 1986;
(b) male employees serving on and after 30 November 1978 who did
not avail of the facility to opt out of the Scheme; and
(c) female employees appointed on or after 31 May 1986 who opted to
join the Original Scheme.


...



Refund of Contributions
16.20 Under the both the Original and Revised Schemes, contributions paid
by members are refunded in the following circumstances:
(a) where a member ceases service (other than on death), does not
qualify for pension or preserved pension and does not transfer
service to another organisation - in this case, a full refund is
payable (the most common reason for this is that the member has
less than 2 years' service);
(b) where a member dies and no benefit is payable under the Scheme
because the provisions of the Civil Service Injury Warrants apply -
in this case, a full refund is also payable, but with interest;
(c) where a member has paid periodic contributions for a period in
excess of 40 years; in this case, a refund is made in respect of the
excess period only (starting with the initial contributions paid by the
member).
16.21 Refunds are also payable, under the Original Scheme only, in the
following additional circumstances:
(a) where a member is unmarried at the time of cesser of service, has
remained unmarried throughout his/her period of membership of the
Scheme and does not transfer service to another organisation - in
this case, a full refund is payable;
(b) where a member is widowed at the time of cesser of service and
has paid periodic contributions in excess of "relevant service" (see
par. 16.15(b)) - in this case, a refund is made in respect of the
excess period (starting with the final contributions paid by the
member);
(c) where the spouse of a member who has retired on grounds of ill-
health dies before the member reaches the compulsory retirement
age - in this case, the member receives a partial refund of the non-
periodic contributions which were deducted from the retirement
lump sum.
16.22 All refunds of contributions in respect of living persons are generally
subject to a tax charge. However, refunds in respect of Death in Service
cases come within the ambit of the Revenue tax free limits for death in service
lump sums, so refunds in such circumstance will generally, under current
Revenue Rules, be tax free."

ezra_pound

Teachers who are members of the "original" scheme and never opted into the new post 2004 scheme can also get refunds if not married.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

OP, I believe that if you are still single when you retire, you can claim a refund of the contributions to the widows and orphans pension. An adjustment will be made to allow for the fact that the contributions were tax-free so you will not get the gross contributions back into your hand.

My service predated the revised scheme so when I left the public service in the early 1980s with seven years service and was still single, they refunded my W&O contributions.

As outlined in post #12 above from ezra_pound, that's no longer applicable to people in the revised scheme.

But....... the OP said he is in his early 60s so it's very likely that he joined before June 1st 1986 and is still in the original scheme in which case he will be able to get a refund of his W&O contributions when he retires.