Loyalists paramilitaies during the Troubles

Giacomo McGubbin

Jesus. wrote: »

I've just shown you a crucial flaw in your argument yet all you can resort to once again is "terrorists are terrorists". Telling me its a fundamental fact is meaningless unless you can provide some proof. I'm just using your own logic here and by that logic the British Army are also terrorists.


Why would I want to worm my way out of anything!

The point I'm making is its a far more complex question than the simplistic notion you're extolling. If we call the IRA terrorists (and lets do so, I've no problem with that) then we must also call the British Army terrorists. They also killed, threatened and intimidated civilian populations in many theatres... far more than the IRA could ever dream of by the way.

So the IRA are terrorists. You must now say the British Army are terrorists.

Do so and at least you're consistent. Do it not and you cannot be taken seriously because you'll have completely contradicted yourself.

As you well know, I've already said it about other terrorists, including those in the BA, ISIS, UVF, LVF, INLA and every other organisation in the world you care to try and diver to. Terrorists are still terrorists including your precious IRA, who murdered and maimed more innocent people than the BA did in NI, and especially from their own community. At last you have to admit the so called "IRA" are terrorist scum the same as any other.

So that leaves us back to the fact you're so desperately trying to to cover up and avoid about the so called "IRA" : Terrorists including the "IRA" are just Terrorist scum like the rest. Simple.

Jesus.

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

As you well know, I've already said it about other terrorists, including those in the BA, ISIS, UVF, LVF, INLA and every other organisation in the world you care to try and diver to.

How would I know that? Have you ever told a British person you believe their army to be terrorist scum?

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

Terrorists are still terrorists including your precious IRA

Why are you being so aggressive Sir?

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

So that leaves us back to the fact you're so desperately trying to to cover up and avoid about the so called "IRA" : Terrorists including the "IRA" are just Terrorist scum like the rest. Simple.

Sure. No problem with that.

Still, I'm sure a British person would be delighted to hear your description of their armed forces as "terrorist scum"!

Giacomo McGubbin

Jesus. wrote: »

How would I know that? Have you ever told a British person you believe their army to be terrorist scum?

Why are you being so aggressive Sir?

Sure. No problem with that.

Still, I'm sure a British person would be delighted to hear your description of their armed forces as "terrorist scum"!

More whataboutery. You sound just like ISIS. The average British or Irish person doesn't support terrorism from any side. However, terrorists and their supporters are all the same, no matter what side they try to hide behind.

Jesus.

The average British person considers their army to be terrorist scum?

My goodness

Giacomo McGubbin

Jesus. wrote: »

The average British person considers their army to be terrorist scum?

My goodness

Fail again. Terrorists and their supporters eh.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

BalcombeSt4

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

Whataboutery ?
Anyone who kills them is including isolated incidents by British Army Soldiers, and out of the two, who killed the most innocent civilians, and constantly and deliberately targeted them throughout their "campaign" and planted bomb after bomb that only targeted civilians ?

- The cowardly scum and gangsters from the so called IRA.
Well, not in my name. Nor will history be revised and airbrushed by their sycophants. I was there.

Your whataboutery is derailing the topic, theres plenty of threads all over boards to discuss the IRA, theres very few if any to discuss just Loyallists.

Giacomo McGubbin

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Your whataboutery is derailing the topic, theres plenty of threads all over boards to discuss the IRA, theres very few if any to discuss just Loyallists.

Then direct to the lad that took exception to the fact that terrorists are terrorists.

laoch na mona

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

Then direct to the lad that took exception to the fact that terrorists are terrorists.

the material conditions that created the IRA's campaign and those which gave rise to violent loyalism were different, yes they were related by no loyalist joined the UVF because the British army shot innocent civilians at a civil rights march. This isn't a thread about the IRA so I won't discuss the merits of their campaign in the 70s/80s/90s. I'm happy to discuss the factors influencing loyalist violence however

Giacomo McGubbin

laoch na mona wrote: »

the material conditions that created the IRA's campaign and those which gave rise to violent loyalism were different, yes they were related by no loyalist joined the UVF because the British army shot innocent civilians at a civil rights march.

but plenty did join when the IRA starting murdering innocent civilians, and the tit for tat terrorism continued for 30 years.

Jesus.

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

Fail again. Terrorists and their supporters eh.

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

Then direct to the lad that took exception to the fact that terrorists are terrorists.

Are you intentionally behaving in this doltish manner?

steddyeddy

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

Whataboutery ?
Anyone who kills them is including isolated incidents by British Army Soldiers, and out of the two, who killed the most innocent civilians, and constantly and deliberately targeted them throughout their "campaign" and planted bomb after bomb that only targeted civilians ?

- The cowardly scum and gangsters from the so called IRA.
Well, not in my name. Nor will history be revised and airbrushed by their sycophants. I was there.

Just a correction here. Bombs don't target civilians or combatants. They are explosive weapons.

Del.Monte

Does any of this crap belong in the History & Heritage forum? Can you not keep all this ranting for AH or do I have to unfollow the forum?

God be with the days when brianthebard modded the forum.

Skihunta13

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

There's plenty of Republican threads on the Northern conflict but hardly any Loyalists even tho they killed close to 1000 civilians. And each time I say anything about Loyalists in a IRA thread I'm told this thread isn't about Loyalists so please don't derail the thread with IRA whataboutery.

I'm suprised by the lack of knowledge people have & I had up until recently about Loyalist attacks from 1969 - the early 2000's, for example hardly anybody seems know Dublin airport was bombed by the UDA in 1975.

And the brutality of the attacks is astonishing. One of the first acts of the UVF in 1966 was to burn an old Protestant woman to death. I'm guessing everyone knows who the Shankill Butchers were. The "romper room" killing of Anne Ogivly who had her head bashed in with a brick. The murder of Senator Paddy Wilson & Irene Andrews who each stabbed dozens of times and had their throats slit from ear to ear.

And also the propaganda line of the RHC, UVF, LVF & UDA was they were taking the "fight" to the IRA yet the UDA out of almost 400 victims only killed 14 members of either the IRA or INLA.

But some of the worst Loyalist attacks other than Loughinisland, Miami Showband, Greysteel & Dublin & Monaghan seem to wiped from history like.....

The Top of the Hil Bar gun attack by the UDA which left 5 civilians dead

The Hillman Street bombing which left a Catholic couple and their 10 month old baby dead.

Benny's Bar bombing by the UDA on Halloween which left 2 small girls who were out trick or treating

There was the Rose & Crown Bar bombing that killed six people and injured 20.

The Reavey and O'Dowd family murders left 6 dead when they killed 3 brothers from each the Reavey & o'Dowd family on the same night.

The Strand Bar gun & bomb attack by the Red Hand Commando left 6 dead.

Kay's Bar bombing which killed 5 people and injured 80, the UVF put snipers in posistion to shot any surviving people coming out of the blast.

I'm guessing most people know of the December 1972 & January 1973 Dublin bombings which left 3 dead & about 250 injured.

3 weeks after the Dublin bombing in January 1972 the UVF launched 3 seperate attacks in 3 different counties in the Republic within in the space of 30 minutes killing 2 people and injuring 20.

The UVF launched a gun and bomb attack on McGleenan's Bar killing 3 people and injuring about two dozen.

On the 2nd of October 1975 the UVF launched 5 seperate attacks which left which left 11 people dead and about 100 injured. The day after the attacks the UVF was made illegal again (no idead why they were made legal in 1974 in the first place.

In 1975 the UVF launched 2 attacks in the Republics border counties. which left 5 dead and 30 injured In the first Kay's Tavern in Dundalk was bombed killing 2 people and injured 20. In the second UVF gunmen attacked Donnelly's Bar and filling station in Silverbridge killing 3 people and injuring 10. Brining the

The 1976 Hillcrest bar bombing (or the St.Patricks day massacre) left 4 dead and 50 injured.

Clancy's Bar bombing & almost straight way a gun attack on the nearby Eagles Bar left 4 dead and about 100 injured.

Chlorane Bar attack left 5 dead.

Less than a month aftr the Chlorane attack the UVF carried out a similar attack on the Ramble Inn which this time left 6 people dead and about 25 injured.

The UVF bombed the Whitefort Inn killing 3 people and injuring 60.

The PAF launched a gun attack in Avenue Bar killing 3 and injuring a dozen.

The 1992 Sean Grahams Bookmakers massacre by the UDA left 5 dead.

Just a few months the UDA attacked another bookmakers on Oldpark Road killing another 3 innocent people.

The LVF opened fire on a 400 packed teenage disco injuring several people and killing one

The LVF shot dead Martin O'Haggan a Sunday World journalist. The killing recieved nowhere near the attention Veronica Guerin's murder got.


There also seems to be huge double standards between Loyalist & republican attacks. For example Enniskillen was a giant, giant blow to the IRA and the media and even there own supporters lay into them hard & rightfully. But the Dublin & Monaghan bombings were considered a "successful operation" and it wasn't a blow to the UVF it even enhanced their reputatio even tho that operation killed nearly 3 times the amount of people killed at Enniskillen.
Also most people seem to know most IRA attacks that killed 3 or more civilians I'd doubt most people have ever heard about the attacks I mentioned.

If memory serves me correctly did loyalist not petrol bomb a house close to the GFA killing 3 young boys?
This thread is a real eye opener, we didn't know the half of it.

Manach

Mod Note
As this thread's thread subject matter is diverging from original topic and as well verging on breaching the forum's charter, on inflammatory comments, further moderator actions will include warnings and/or closing thread.

tomwaterford

Skihunta13 wrote: »

If memory serves me correctly did loyalist not petrol bomb a house close to the GFA killing 3 young boys?

I do recall them shooting two schoolgirls working in a chip van for the supposed reason of the chip van owner not serving soldiers the night before

Made no better by if iirc they left away a young kid but seemed it acceptable to shoot school girls.....this was in and around the GFA time aswell

Skihunta13

tomwaterford wrote: »

I do recall them shooting two schoolgirls working in a chip van for the supposed reason of the chip van owner not serving soldiers the night before

Made no better by if iirc they left away a young kid but seemed it acceptable to shoot school girls.....this was in and around the GFA time aswell

Just go to show the loyalist mentality- kill everything Irish.
People can moan about the IRA but at least they made a conscious attempt to target those who oppressed Irish nationalists.

Jesus.

Del.Monte wrote: »

Does any of this crap belong in the History & Heritage forum? Can you not keep all this ranting for AH or do I have to unfollow the forum?God be with the days when brianthebard modded the forum.

I don't understand the desire to silence people all the time. Anything I don't like to read I just skip by it or click onto another thread. Any heavier Modding than the guys are already doing and you wouldn't be allowed say boo to a Goose (not that you'd want to).

tomwaterford

Skihunta13 wrote: »

Just go to show the loyalist mentality- kill everything Irish.
People can moan about the IRA but at least they made a conscious attempt to target those who oppressed Irish nationalists.

These weren't caught in crossfire/accidental deaths as many caught up in ira attacks

They sought out these school children killed them coz soldiers didn't get chips. ...a fcuked up culture tbh

BalcombeSt4

Stovepipe wrote: »

@balcombe st, it has long since been standard practise, whether true or not, for Republicans to state that the police colluded with Loyalists whenever a Catholic was murdered. That was the central point of Dillon's book; the police did not collude with the killers and made strenuous attempts to get them, which was regarded as notable and worthy of comment, as, in a tide of awful murders, the killings stood out as particularly gruesome and pointless.

I know they claimed police colluded with Loyalists in a lot of killings of Catholics but not every single one, they didn't cry collusion for the Shankill Butchers for example.

BalcombeSt4

Skihunta13 wrote: »

Just go to show the loyalist mentality- kill everything Irish.
People can moan about the IRA but at least they made a conscious attempt to target those who oppressed Irish nationalists.

Yeah, the Loyalists stated goal was to combat the IRA & INLA yet they out of 900 killings they only killed 41 Republicans.

The IRA's goal was to wage a campaign against the British Army, Loyalists & RUC out 1,800 killings they killed 1,200 Army, RUC and Loyalists, they killed a lot less civilians than there Loyalists counterparts.

BalcombeSt4

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

Then direct to the lad that took exception to the fact that terrorists are terrorists.

I think Loyalists who engage in in the targeting murdering of civilans are scum same for Republicans but I hate using the term "terroists" as its just become a propaganda term to dehumanize your enemy.

BalcombeSt4

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

Whataboutery ?
Anyone who kills them is including isolated incidents by British Army Soldiers, and out of the two, who killed the most innocent civilians, and constantly and deliberately targeted them throughout their "campaign" and planted bomb after bomb that only targeted civilians ?

- The cowardly scum and gangsters from the so called IRA.
Well, not in my name. Nor will history be revised and airbrushed by their sycophants. I was there.

Isolated?

Falls Curfew - Britsh Army killed 5 civilians
Ballymurphy Massacre - They killed 11
Hillstreet Massacre -3 civilians killed
Deaf mute killed in coldblood
Bloody Sunday - 14
Springhill Massacre - 5
Dunloy
Pitchforking Killings
Killings Carol Ann kelly & Julie Livingstone and around two dozens other kids killed
And about 100 others.

brocbrocach

Its a crazy thing to think that the UDA wasnt banned til the 90s.

Jesus.

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I think Loyalists who engage in in the targeting murdering of civilans are scum same for Republicans but I hate using the term "terroists" as its just become a propaganda term to dehumanize your enemy.

Deliberately targeting civilians is scum of the earth stuff though. Yer man who mowed down all those people (including 15 kids) in Nice was a terrorist scumbag for example.

Esel

brocbrocach wrote: »

Its a crazy thing to think that the UDA wasnt banned til the 90s.

Not so crazy if you can see the context.

Grab All Association

Former Loyalist/UVF members are transporting/smuggling the drugs via the north to drug dealers in the midlands since the 1980s. Gardai are doing nothing about it. All we have to fight them here is community groups like Roscrea Stands Up. They enjoy complete immunity.

BalcombeSt4

Jesus. wrote: »

Deliberately targeting civilians is scum of the earth stuff though. Yer man who mowed down all those people (including 15 kids) in Nice was a terrorist scumbag for example.

I'd say he was a murdering scumbag. The thing is all militaries who have engaged in war are gullity of terrozing someone and usually a civiliansn population. If were to apply thesame principals across the board then the USA invasion of Vietnam was the biggest terrorist campaign since the 1940's.

jonniebgood1

Skihunta13 wrote: »

Just go to show the loyalist mentality- kill everything Irish.
People can moan about the IRA but at least they made a conscious attempt to target those who oppressed Irish nationalists.

tomwaterford wrote: »

These weren't caught in crossfire/accidental deaths as many caught up in ira attacks

They sought out these school children killed them coz soldiers didn't get chips. ...a fcuked up culture tbh

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Yeah, the Loyalists stated goal was to combat the IRA & INLA yet they out of 900 killings they only killed 41 Republicans.

The IRA's goal was to wage a campaign against the British Army, Loyalists & RUC out 1,800 killings they killed 1,200 Army, RUC and Loyalists, they killed a lot less civilians than there Loyalists counterparts.

Grab All Association wrote: »

Former Loyalist/UVF members are transporting/smuggling the drugs via the north to drug dealers in the midlands since the 1980s. Gardai are doing nothing about it. All we have to fight them here is community groups like Roscrea Stands Up. They enjoy complete immunity.

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Your whataboutery is derailing the topic, theres plenty of threads all over boards to discuss the IRA, theres very few if any to discuss just Loyallists.

Jesus. wrote: »

Are you intentionally behaving in this doltish manner?

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

Then direct to the lad that took exception to the fact that terrorists are terrorists.

Skihunta13 wrote: »

If memory serves me correctly did loyalist not petrol bomb a house close to the GFA killing 3 young boys?
This thread is a real eye opener, we didn't know the half of it.

Thread closed for the following non exhaustive list of reasons:

To much bickering, to many posts read like propaganda rather than discussion of history, personal bickering, misrepresentation of facts, statements made with no sources as a back up and of course some back seat moderation.
The quoted posts are a selection of the above. People were asked by Manach to stay within the forum charter and did not do so.
Moderator.