Training firearm certificate

stef22

filling up at the moment the training firearm application form for my son and i am unsure regarding a couple of point on the FCA1 form.
Can not get hold of my FO to ask him.

in Section 1 , should i select " i have held a certificate for this firearm ...." or should i select " i have not held a certificate for this firearm ..." ?
i obviously have a certificate in my name but my son doesn't so is the "i" in this section for me or my for my son ?

Similar query for section 3 of the FCA1 form , is the source of firearm myself or the dealer since the firearm already in my name ?

thanks
stef22

Cass

In section 1 tick "Training Firearms Certificate" and then tick "I have NOT held .......... " as your son has not held a license for the firearm.

In section 3.3, Source of Firearm i was unsure too so i ticked part (B) Private Source, filled in my certificate number.

Then in section 4.1, Certificate detail, i also ticked the box for Joint Application and filled in my cert number again.

The young got his cert, but the Super wanted to meet him first.

Some things to look out for.

1. I was asked by the local Gardaí, not my FO/Super, for a competency certificate for him. I questioned this as he cannot legally have the gun without me being present and the purpose of the training license is to teach him and let him gain the competence. I ignored the local's request, took the paperwork from them and submitted directly to the main station. The FO there processed it and the Super even said asking for a competency for a training license was akin to asking for a full driving license so a new driver could take lessons.
2. I changed my gun a few weeks back and done my sub, then his. They never sent out his license and i got a call saying there was a license on the system unpaid belonging to my young lad. Turns out PULSE cannot do subs for a training license. Now the law does not say it cannot be done, but because the system cannot do it i had two options. Leave him with the old license on the old gun (pointless) or pay another €40 for a new license for the new gun. I done the latter. I checked this out and while i'm right i need the license for him. So don't go changing.

stef22

Thanks Cass for clarification, cannot wait to go out shooting with him.

skipking

cass can your son go shooting with your gun with any experienced shooter or have
you to be with him when he is carrying the gun?

Cass

It has to be me. His license is tied to mine.

For example i had him on the hmr at first. The expiry/renewal date on the hmr was coming up. The FO put my license through first so when i got my renewal she then put the young lads through. Now both had three years. Had she put his through without waiting for me to renew then his license expiry date would only have lasted to the last day of my license.

The legal side of it is he can only be in possession of the gun, under the supervision of the licensed person. IOW me or in your case you. He cannot have it on his own or with others if you're not there.

skipking

that clears it up for me. thanks for the reply .

goz83

I'm looking forward to being able to bring out my young one. But he wont be 14 until next year.

I wonder if one can apply a couple of months before the lad turns 14, while noting that the license should only be granted after his 14th birthday. Or, do you actually have to wait until he is 14 before putting an fca form in? My reason for this thinking, is that I would loke to be able to have him out with me over his summer holidays, rather than him being back in school before the license is got (3-4 months later).

Cass

You have to wait until he is 14.

I wanted to hand my young lad his license for his birthday. When i checked with the FO i was told if his date of birth shows he is not 14 when they go to process it, it'll be refused. Also he had to sign it so the surprise part would be gone. So on his 14th i handed him his presents, and the FCA1 to fill out (with me) and sign.

goz83

Cass wrote: »

You have to wait until he is 14.

I wanted to hand my young lad his license for his birthday. When i checked with the FO i was told if his date of birth shows he is not 14 when they go to process it, it'll be refused. Also he had to sign it so the surprise part would be gone. So on his 14th i handed him his presents, and the FCA1 to fill out (with me) and sign.

No worries. I suppose, i could get the gun well in advance on my license and he could always use it at the range until his cert came in.

Cass

You can buy the gun, license it, get him his license, and when he turns 16 get him his full license so it's now his gun.

goz83

Yep, that's the plan. You reckon a "good reason" on a new license is that I intend to allow my son to use it on a training cert when he is of age and has his training cert?

Cass

Eh, you have me there.

It's tricky ground. My fella uses my rifle. I bought it for me, he just uses it. To buy one for him, to say it'll be his, and when he is old enough he'll be able to take it without you might come across as "too much".

I really don't know. Might be better to use a reason for you to have a second rifle. Have you considered getting a different caliber? You have the 22lr, how about a magnum, hmr, even a 223? License your lad on the .22lr and have the other rifle a varmint gun. Reason for wanting it writes itself. When he is older he can get a license on both. By then he'll be more than adept to use the higher caliber.

goz83

Im thinking of getting another 22 for myself tbh. I'm considering a ruger take down semi.

Would also like to get him a shiney new gun....so that could possibly be 3 22 rifles in my name and would be possibly pushing my luck on the third one.

Bad_alibi

1. .22 bolt vermin control
2. 10/22 gallery rifle competition
3. .22 for son if its a bolt action stick down bench rest shooting

Can see it been a problem, but then it's easy get a licence down my way.

stef22

ok the trainee license has been refused to my son because he doesn't have a firearm training certificate.
Anybody knows where he can attend such training in the west preferably ?

Tikka391

Contact the NARGC they will give you the number of your county safety officer.
He will tell you when next course is.

BattleCorp

stef22 wrote: »

ok the trainee license has been refused to my son because he doesn't have a firearm training certificate.
Anybody knows where he can attend such training in the west preferably ?

Another example of the Gardaí doing stupid things. The whole idea of the training cert is to allow a young person time to become familiar with a firearm under another person's supervision before they apply for a licence of their own.

A simple fix though is to do some sort of competency course and then reapply. Funny enough though, none are approved by the Gardaí. I don't know about over in the West of Ireland but there are often courses run in Harbour House near Athy, Co. Kildare. Are there any ranges near you?

stef22

thanks both for the tips.
The closest range would be the midlands , will contact them.

Bad_alibi

Try speaking to the Supt and explain that a a training licence doesn't require a training cert. Also make him aware that the gardai don't officially back any company or individual who provide these courses.

Cass

stef22 wrote: »

ok the trainee license has been refused to my son because he doesn't have a firearm training certificate.

When you say it was refused, was it the Super or the FO?

I went through the exact same thing. Only difference being the local FO refused to submit the application until my young lad done a competency course so i took the forms and submitted them myself directly to the Super's office.

Have a read of this and this and then decide what you want to do based on your own situation.

You might also mention that a training license's purpose is to provide safety and competence training for a person under 16 (anyone really but more aimed at this age group) and that a competence course is not mandatory. It is only one of several ways to show/obtain competence.

Anybody knows where he can attend such training in the west preferably ?

If MNSCI is closest i'll give them a buzz and find out for you.

cookimonster

Funny enough that it has been said here that the Gaurds don't recognize any individuals or groups providing these courses. But they do recognize the certs issued when produced by individuals applying for their first firearm.
I have yet to see anybody I know been refused on the grounds of the validity of the certs. I've seen serving members of the Defence Forces refused their first applications for lack of such certs even with proof of service and serving members as referees.
I've been involved in the training and issuing of competency certs at gun club levels using a fairly straightforward but logical syllabus, what horrifies me are some of the over the counter (literally) instruction / training that is given by gun shops.

Cass

There are four recognised methods of showing competence:

• Competency cert
• Previous history
• Training license
• Letters of support from licensed people

The competence cert is a lazy way of doing it. Any cert issued, regardless of where it comes from, has no official recognition. An Gardaí may accept it in one district, but not in another. They may even accept it for a time and then refuse to at a later date.

However the cert has become the standard rather than only one way to show competence.

A training certificate's purpose, as said above, is to provide a person with the ability to accompany a licensed person when out shooting to learn about safe handling, safe shooting, competent firearm handling, etc. Then at the end of the training license or when they come of age to apply for a full license.

As it stands it's like asking someone applying for a provisional driving license to complete the driving test before being allowed to get the provisional license.

If the competence courses were regulated or had an official seal of approval then i could understand the need for them but as this is not the case, and most likely never will be, i would not accept the demand for one as per my own situation in the links above.

stef22

Cass wrote: »

When you say it was refused, was it the Super or the FO?

I went through the exact same thing. Only difference being the local FO refused to submit the application until my young lad done a competency course so i took the forms and submitted them myself directly to the Super's office.

You might also mention that a training license's purpose is to provide safety and competence training for a person under 16 (anyone really but more aimed at this age group) and that a competence course is not mandatory. It is only one of several ways to show/obtain competence.

The FO refused to submit the application. I did write a letter explaining what the training license's purpose was for but that didn't help.
I wont try to argue with the FO or super , will just get the competence training done and that will be it , by November the 1st hopefully i will be shooting with my young lad.
I did find a place to do the training not too far.

Cass

stef22 wrote: »

The FO refused to submit the application.

He cannot do that. Unless disentitled by law he must take your application off you and submit it for approval. It's one of the few "rights" we have.

Its the exact same thing, to the letter if you will, that i went through. Did you read the two posts in my links above?

When i took the applications off the local FO and submitted them to the Super's office directly i got called in for an interview with the young lad. In the interview the Super said there is no need for a competence course for someone seeking a training license as that is the very purpose of the training license.

I'd advise you go the same route. If you pander to the FO's whims, and that is all this is a whim (or lack of knowledge leading to incompetence in his abilities to perform his duties) then you'll find yourself having to do more and more that he wants and that is not legally necessary.

BTW when i say take them off him, you go in and tell him to send the FCA1 up for consideration as is. If he refuses you demand to speak to someone higher up there and then.

stef22

i totally agree with you cass but for the sake of a cert i rather not argue with the FO.

Cass

But he is not the one issuing your license and he has no authority to demand a competence cert when none is needed.

I know what you are doing is for convenience sake, but it's wrong (what is being asked off you) and i personally wouldn't and didn't do it. Still got the license.