Possible 2 full state pensions?

Charisteas

Hi Lumina,

Yes I did see that. Class 3 rates, although a lot higher than class 2, still seem like a good deal in the long run; as I said in my original post -
at current rates paying ?13.90 a week now for a return of ?159.55 per week at retirement age is a good investment.

The Inland Revenue haven't exactly been crystal clear about the whole situation for those working abroad, which makes me think that there may be some sort of middle ground for the likes of us, a new plan or a new contribution class or something.

Nevertheless, whatever happens in the coming months, for now I'm happy to pay my backdated class 2 contributions, which will get me the 10 years worth of contributions, thus at least getting a foot onto the UK pension ladder.

Lumina, how did you get on with paying your class 2 contributions? Was everything smooth sailing?

Lumina

Took months to get a reply saying accepted, I then paid, then phoned a month later to find out they had received money but had not allocated it so had to tell them to spread payment across each year requiring payment.

When it came to my wife's I simply sent multiple payments for each year owed and no bother.

Easy to do with online banking.

leelee77

Myself and my husband got letters last week to say we could backpay for 6 years (mainly Class 2) so we intend to do. Seems like a great investment.

Charisteas

Yes I can also backpay for several years and they've given me a generous deadline of April 2019 but I feel that I want to get it sorted this year.

The only thing I'm skeptical about now is the earlier posters in here saying it's illegal to pay into two European national insurance schemes. I'm eager to get any clarification on that before I make my payment of a four figure sum.

Steer55

Charisteas wrote: »

Yes I can also backpay for several years and they've given me a generous deadline of April 2019 but I feel that I want to get it sorted this year.

The only thing I'm skeptical about now is the earlier posters in here saying it's illegal to pay into two European national insurance schemes. I'm eager to get any clarification on that before I make my payment of a four figure sum.

If you are unemployed in Ireland and signing for unemployment benefits you cannot pay into the UK national insurance system at the same time as you will be receiving unemployment credits in Ireland.
Otherwise it is fine.

Steer55

Came across this earlier, good news for all who will be getting the British state pension in the future and for all those who continue to pay national insurance contributions from abroad.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/pensions-retirement/news/britain-eu-reach-agreement-expats-state-pension-brexit/

Charisteas

It's probably common knowledge to most of you at this stage, but the abolition of Class 2 NI has been postponed by twelve months from April 2018 until April 2019.

So those of you making weekly direct debit payments will save 592.80 pounds.

It wouldn't really surprise me if they reversed their original decision to scrap Class 2 NI, or at least found some sort of middle ground, as it's quite a leap to raise contribution prices from 2.85 a week to 14.25 a week, especially for UK self employed earning 6,025 pounds or less per year.

SCOOP 64

I been living in Ireland for the pass 13 years, now i opted out of UK pension (if this is the right word for it ) in the 90's,so now this is paid into a private pension which i have not made any contributions too as not working in UK for the pass 13 years, now can i opt back in and start paying voluntary contributions for a UK pension ?

Mech1

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

I been living in Ireland for the pass 13 years, now i opted out of UK pension (if this is the right word for it ) in the 90's,so now this is paid into a private pension which i have not made any contributions too as not working in UK for the pass 13 years, now can i opt back in and start paying voluntary contributions for a UK pension ?

im in that same boat!

SCOOP 64

Mech1 wrote: »

im in that same boat!

Got to admit i know nothing about pensions or even if i done the right thing by opting out in the 90's, but i do know i wont get a full Irish state pension, so don't know were i stand.

MIKEKC

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Got to admit i know nothing about pensions or even if i done the right thing by opting out in the 90's, but i do know i wont get a full Irish state pension, so don't know were i stand.

If you paid P. R. S I for ten years here you will get full pension

SCOOP 64

MIKEKC wrote: »

If you paid P. R. S I for ten years here you will get full pension

Really?,don't know what ive been reading ,thought it was now 30yrs, but if its 10yrs i will be covered.

Bubbaclaus

MIKEKC wrote: »

If you paid P. R. S I for ten years here you will get full pension

No you won't.

TheBeach

10 years of prsi allows you to 'apply' for a pension. It does not get you a full pension. It gives you an entitlement to anywhere between 95 euro A week and 238 euro depending on how many contributions you have and when you first entered into insurance. (é. g. Year of first prsi payment).

Maybe Im a bit dopey here, but is this thread effectively telling me that if i (having lived in ireland all my life, now 29), went to the UK for a couple of years work (not sure how long is required), I could position myself to come back to ireland and yet make voluntary contributions to the UK state pension, and then claim both of them upon retirement?


Seems a little too good to be true? Or is it only if you were born in the UK you can get away with it?

dennispenn

Regina Doherty was on radio or TV last week talking about this with someone, she said you cannot have two pension, while someone was debating against her and said there are ppl claiming two full pensions.

SCOOP 64

Surely the Irish pension will be deducted on what your getting from the UK pension ?

TheBeach

Deleted User wrote:

Maybe Im a bit dopey here, but is this thread effectively telling me that if i (having lived in ireland all my life, now 29), went to the UK for a couple of years work (not sure how long is required), I could position myself to come back to ireland and yet make voluntary contributions to the UK state pension, and then claim both of them upon retirement?

No. Because you can't pay prsi in two countries at the same time. You could pay voluntary contributions in the UK only if you weren't paying prsi here.

mmc272

TheBeach wrote: »

Deleted User wrote:

Maybe Im a bit dopey here, but is this thread effectively telling me that if i (having lived in ireland all my life, now 29), went to the UK for a couple of years work (not sure how long is required), I could position myself to come back to ireland and yet make voluntary contributions to the UK state pension, and then claim both of them upon retirement?

No. Because you can't pay prsi in two countries at the same time. You could pay voluntary contributions in the UK only if you weren't paying prsi here.

That not true, it might be technically correct but that not what happening in reality. I worked across the border in my 20’s for a couple years and now pay Voluntary Contributions and I have been Contributing for 5 years now. One of the conditions for me to pay the Cheaper Class 2 contributions is that I must be working in the country I live in. I had to submit payslips from here to prove that I’m working here.

“You can pay Class 2 NICs if you are employed or self­employed abroad and if you satisfy the following conditions:
• you have lived in the UK for a continuous 3­year period at any
time before the period for which NICs are to be paid ­ (if you have lived or worked in another EEA country or in Turkey, time spent there may help you to meet this condition)
• before going abroad you paid a set amount in NICs for 3 years or more (this will be checked when you ask to pay Class 2 NICs)
• immediately before going abroad you were ordinarily an employed or self­employed earner in the UK”

splinter65

dennispenn wrote: »

Regina Doherty was on radio or TV last week talking about this with someone, she said you cannot have two pension, while someone was debating against her and said there are ppl claiming two full pensions.

I wouldn’t pay any attention to anything Doherty says, she’s the most badly informed DSP minister for years. She basically has zero interest in her portfolio.

TheBeach

mmc272 wrote:

“You can pay Class 2 NICs if you are employed or self­employed abroad and if you satisfy the following conditions: • you have lived in the UK for a continuous 3­year period at any time before the period for which NICs are to be paid ­ (if you have lived or worked in another EEA country or in Turkey, time spent there may help you to meet this condition) • before going abroad you paid a set amount in NICs for 3 years or more (this will be checked when you ask to pay Class 2 NICs) • immediately before going abroad you were ordinarily an employed or self­employed earner in the UKâ€

Do they definitely pay out on them at pension age though?

Charisteas

MIKEKC wrote: »

If you paid P. R. S I for ten years here you will get full pension

That is/was true for current pensioners, but that rule is being scrapped under the new 2018 pension reforms.

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Really?,don't know what ive been reading ,thought it was now 30yrs, but if its 10yrs i will be covered.

I don't think the new reforms have been finalised yet, but it appears that they are mirroring the UK system, i.e. 10 years (520 weekly payments) is the current amount to get your foot on the ladder and at least claim the minimum amount. So it looks like you're already guaranteed an Irish pension.

To claim the maximum amount, you will need 30 years worth of contributions (although some press releases are actually saying 40 years, so I guess a decision hasn't been finalised yet.)

Either way, if you pass the 10 year mark, but can't reach the maximum 30 or 40 year mark, you will get the pro-rata fraction of the full rate. For example if you retire with 23 years worth of contributions, you can receive 23/30th (or 23/40th) of the full rate.

TheBeach wrote: »

No. Because you can't pay prsi in two countries at the same time.

I think you're mistaken here; can you please provide a source for this?

TheBeach

Charisteas wrote:

That is/was true for current pensioners, but that rule is being scrapped under the new 2018 pension reforms.

No it isn't true. The only person who would qualify for a FULL pension based on 10 years of stamps would be someone who started working /paying prsi for the first time at age 55 and worked for ten consecutive years. Very few people would fall into that category. (And this is under current rules). Hope that makes sense.

Lumina

We get another year of cheap contributions!

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/protect/2017/11/abolition-of-class-2-national-insurance-payments-delayed-until-2019

TheBeach

Charisteas wrote:

I think you're mistaken here; can you please provide a source for this?

Go on to Europe.eu website. It is there under the social insurance section. Sorry I'm unable to copy and paste on the phone.

Charisteas

Europa.eu is a useful website and there is an awful lot of legal jargon on the site, and while I'm trying to read and take in as much as I can, I'll probably have to have to come back to it sporadically.

Though my early impressions are that they do acknowledge and accept being able to contribute towards insurance schemes in two member states, appearing to leave it open to each individual EU member state to determine if they will accept voluntary contributions from someone who is already paying compulsory in a different state.

This is article 14, titled 'Voluntary insurance or optional continued insurance', section 3 -

However, in respect of invalidity, old age and survivors' benefits, the person concerned may join the voluntary or optional continued insurance scheme of a Member State, even if he/she is compulsorily subject to the legislation of another Member State, provided that he/she has been subject, at some stage in his/her career, to the legislation of the first Member State because or as a consequence of an activity as an employed or self-employed person and if such overlapping is explicitly or implicitly allowed under the legislation of the first Member State.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32004R0883R(01)


And in a other regulation section there is this -

Where the legislation of a Member State makes admission to voluntary insurance or optional continued insurance conditional upon residence in that Member State or upon previous activity as an employed or self-employed person, Article 5(b) shall apply only to persons who have been subject, at some earlier stage, to the legislation of that Member State on the basis of an activity as an employed or self-employed person.’;

And in the Germany section of the same page -

a person who is compulsorily insured in another Member State or receives an old-age pension under the legislation of another Member State may join the voluntary insurance scheme in Germany.

And for France -

Nationals of other Member States whose place of residence or usual abode is outside France and who fulfil the general conditions of the French pension insurance scheme may pay voluntary contributions to it only if they had been voluntarily or compulsorily insured in the French pension insurance scheme at some time previously

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32009R0988http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32009R0988

And we already know the UK also accept voluntary contributions as per other posters on this forum currently making contributions.

If you come from the UK to Ireland (or any other country), you can opt in to pay UK voluntary contributions (upon meeting a 3 year requirement rule) and shouldn't have any problems even if you are paying your compulsory PRSI in Ireland.

But it seems that if you went the other way, from Ireland to the UK (or any other country in the EU), then Ireland will not accept your voluntary contribution application if you started to work and were paying UK National Insurance.
Ireland's rules are

You can choose to pay voluntary contributions (if you are under 66 and meet the other conditions) if you:

Are no longer covered by compulsory PRSI in Ireland
Are no longer covered by PRSI on a compulsory or voluntary basis in another EU country

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Voluntary-Pay-Related-Social-Insurance-PRSI-Contributions.aspx

Of course, the UK is leaving the EU on 29th March 2019, so possibly after this date it would be possible.

amtc

My grandmother (who died last week) received a strange mix of a widows pension from here, a widows pension from the uk where my grandfather worked before he died in 1984 and her own pension in Australia. I always thought it was unfair that when the pension was increased here or in the uk her Australian one was reduced so she never got an increase.

dossier279

Charisteas wrote: »

Europa.eu is a useful website and there is an awful lot of legal jargon on the site, and while I'm trying to read and take in as much as I can, I'll probably have to have to come back to it sporadically.

Though my early impressions are that they do acknowledge and accept being able to contribute towards insurance schemes in two member states, appearing to leave it open to each individual EU member state to determine if they will accept voluntary contributions from someone who is already paying compulsory in a different state.

This is article 14, titled 'Voluntary insurance or optional continued insurance', section 3 -






And in a other regulation section there is this -



And in the Germany section of the same page -



And for France -





And we already know the UK also accept voluntary contributions as per other posters on this forum currently making contributions.

If you come from the UK to Ireland (or any other country), you can opt in to pay UK voluntary contributions (upon meeting a 3 year requirement rule) and shouldn't have any problems even if you are paying your compulsory PRSI in Ireland.

But it seems that if you went the other way, from Ireland to the UK (or any other country in the EU), then Ireland will not accept your voluntary contribution application if you started to work and were paying UK National Insurance.
Ireland's rules are



Of course, the UK is leaving the EU on 29th March 2019, so possibly after this date it would be possible.

I came across this after googling, but agree, this is an excellent point. I am already paying Voluntary Class 2 NICs for UK NI for state pension purposes, and will look into Voluntary PRSI for the Irish state pension.

Charisteas

Good news for people currently paying class 2 voluntary contributions; the plans to abolish class 2 national insurance in April 2019 have been scrapped completely.