Deep Space Nine Runthrough

goose2005

Interesting to note how the idea of Ferengi = profit crazy, developed over time

In "The Last Outpost", we were introduced to the Ferengi. Gene Roddenberry originally envisioned the Ferengi as the Federation's primary foe, to take the place of the Klingons and Romulans. This was part of the sea change in Star Trek's underlying theme, which was being revised from the 1960's Cold War to a left-wing liberal tirade against consumerism and capitalism. But the Ferengi were not simply greedy; they were powerful, mysterious, and dangerous. The very first Ferengi warship we ever saw was powerful enough to dice with the Federation's biggest, most powerful battleship, and its crew was highly aggressive. Despite their small stature, they were able to surprise and defeat a Federation landing party on the ground. Their appearance may have been odd, but these were clearly not people to be trifled with.

When they reappeared in "Peak Performance", they were similarly threatening. They dropped out of warp at point blank range, opened fire on the USS Enterprise, and promptly disabled most of its combat systems. They demanded the surrender of the derelict USS Hathaway, and when Picard (seemingly) destroyed it rather than surrender it, the Ferengi captain grudgingly complimented him by saying that "I did not think the Federation had such iron!" A rather warrior-like sentiment, is it not? Similarly, Picard once recounted the story of how he lost his previous command, after his ship was reduced to a flaming wreck by a Ferengi warship. This is a far cry from the cowardly Ferengi of DS9, isn't it? But in every appearance, the Ferengi made reference to a profit motive, and that was more than enough to plant the brain bug.

By the time the Ferengi showed up on DS9, their interest in profit had grown to encompass their entire culture. They were suddenly interested in nothing but the accumulation of wealth, and the writers' desire to simplify every alien society into a one-note joke meant that any non-financial elements of their society (including the strong martial tradition that was obvious from their initial appearance in TNG) vanished without a trace. Now, they were a laughingstock in combat, and they made frequent disparaging references to their own combat ineptitude. When Nog elected to join the Federation military, the decision was treated with shock, contempt, and derision by his relatives because Ferengi are businessmen, not soldiers. When Quark went on a mission to rescue his mother, they found a single Ferengi mercenary who was good with weapons, and the others acted as if he was some kind of freakish anomaly. What happened to the heavily armed Ferengi warships we saw in TNG? Did the writers suffer a massive collective amnesia attack?

As time went by, this brain bug continued to grow. Not only was greed now the only defining characteristic of Ferengi society, but the writers figured they were on a roll, so they even made it the Ferengi religion! Instead of the Ten Commandments, the Ferengi had the "Rules of Acquisition", with which the viewers were bludgeoned with constant reminders of Ferengi greed. Instead of "astral plane" or "holy ghost", they had the "Great Material Continuum". We were told that the Ferengi had no loyalty to anything but money; not to friends, not to family, not to king and country. No one ever managed to explain how a society could possibly function along these lines, but no matter; the writers obviously had no interest in constructing an interesting or multi-faceted alien society for the Ferengi. Far from it; instead, they seemed to be interested in reducing it to a single element, just as they had done for the Klingons. By the time they were done, another society had been transformed into a farcical one-note caricature by the unfettered growth of a brain bug. Planted in TNG, and grown to the proportions of Jack's famous beanstalk in DS9.

Indricotherium

goose2005 wrote: »

Interesting to note how the idea of Ferengi = profit crazy, developed over time

I feel that every ferenghi character featured in ds9 was shown to be about more than profit.

donspeekinglesh

Finished DS9 now. Really enjoyed it. Thought the CGI was fine for a late 90s TV show. At least it allowed for big battle scenes that couldn't be done with just models.

Will move onto Voyager soon.

Beefy78

goose2005 wrote: »

Interesting to note how the idea of Ferengi = profit crazy, developed over time

This is less a Ferengi issue and more a general Trek issue. They clearly decided early on in TNG's run that the Ferengi as a serious race wasn't working and took them in the direction of comic-relief instead. But Trek tends to treat all background members of a race as being fairly generic. Every race wears the same clothes, every society becomes 'one-note'.

It's arguably a necessity to a degree. you just have to go along with it.

Beefy78

Beefy78 wrote: »

This is less a Ferengi issue and more a general Trek issue. They clearly decided early on in TNG's run that the Ferengi as a serious race wasn't working and took them in the direction of comic-relief instead. But Trek tends to treat all background members of a race as being fairly generic. Every race wears the same clothes, every society becomes 'one-note'.

It's arguably a necessity to a degree. you just have to go along with it.

Very true.

I believe the Ferengi were going to be the main villains of TNG, but I think when it was test-screened to audiences, they found that they couldn't take their design seriously as being the bad guys.

Instead they chose to go with Romulans/Borg as the main series villains and made the Ferengi the comic relief.

pixelburp

Beefy78 wrote: »

This is less a Ferengi issue and more a general Trek issue. They clearly decided early on in TNG's run that the Ferengi as a serious race wasn't working and took them in the direction of comic-relief instead. But Trek tends to treat all background members of a race as being fairly generic. Every race wears the same clothes, every society becomes 'one-note'.

It's arguably a necessity to a degree. you just have to go along with it.

I think I criticised the Ferengi at the start of my run-through here, but as the episodes have rolled by I've warmed to them a little; in fact I'd go so far that while they're definitely a race that leans towards comic relief, they're remarkably more defined and ... believable than, say, the Klingons. Clearly their entire race & civilisation is a big, crude mockery of capitalism morphed into a religion & culture, but as ludicrous as that seems, at least Ferenginar feels like it has a sense of structure & order; side characters like Brunt ("FCA") come across like the kind of bureaucrat you might actually find on a world like that, and you could still see how Doctors, technicians and the like would exist in a world like that - a far cry from the 'war and nothing else' mentality of the Klingons

The_Valeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Instead they chose to go with Romulans/Borg as the main series villains and made the Ferengi the comic relief.

Wise choice.


The Borg were brilliant bad guys. Simple objectives.


The Romulans were pretty interesting nemesis, not really bad guys as such.

Inviere

pixelburp wrote: »

I think I criticised the Ferengi at the start of my run-through here, but as the episodes have rolled by I've warmed to them a little; in fact I'd go so far that while they're definitely a race that leans towards comic relief, they're remarkably more defined and ... believable than, say, the Klingons. Clearly their entire race & civilisation is a big, crude mockery of capitalism morphed into a religion & culture, but as ludicrous as that seems, at least Ferenginar feels like it has a sense of structure & order; side characters like Brunt ("FCA") come across like the kind of bureaucrat you might actually find on a world like that, and you could still see how Doctors, technicians and the like would exist in a world like that - a far cry from the 'war and nothing else' mentality of the Klingons

Agreed, well put. I personally loved the Ferengi episodes, & am glad they didn't become generic bad guys.

Indricotherium

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Wise choice.


The Borg were brilliant bad guys. Simple objectives.


The Romulans were pretty interesting nemesis, not really bad guys as such.

Ugh nemisis

Indricotherium

Indricotherium wrote: »

Ugh nemisis

It's mad to compare Tom Hardy then and Tom Hardy now in the likes of Dark Knight Rises.

The_Valeyard

Inviere wrote: »

Agreed, well put. I personally loved the Ferengi episodes, & am glad they didn't become generic bad guys.

The magnificent Ferengi

Inviere

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The magnificent Ferengi

Loved it! Iggy Pop as a Vorta is surreal

MrJones1973

I would recommend the books Avatar by SD Perry which take the story directly after the Finale. If you want more DS9 adventure and to see where the characters went.
Because the series is over, these books can play around with Character trajectory in a way they were not allowed to during its run. You get them cheap enough on Amazon.

pixelburp

A few more random thoughts while working through the first few episodes of the 5th Season:

- I never thought I'd say this, but Jake is not half as annoying as I remembered him; he's a bit of a drip, but nowhere near Wesley Crusher levels of annoying. "Nor to the battle, the strong" made me feel for the guy, despite the cheesy voiceover
- Is there a more unsung guest actor in TV Trek than Jeffrey Combs? Feels like every second episode, there he is, playing another random alien.
- The Kira surrogate pregnancy is weird, and I can't help but feel were it modern TV they absolutely would have made more of O'Brien / Kira tension.

Beefy78

As I said in the other thread, Jake is in the conversation for my favourite character.

Inviere

Just finished watching this on Netflix...
Thoroughly enjoyed it...

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

A few more random thoughts while working through the first few episodes of the 5th Season:

- I never thought I'd say this, but Jake is not half as annoying as I remembered him; he's a bit of a drip, but nowhere near Wesley Crusher levels of annoying. "Nor to the battle, the strong" made me feel for the guy, despite the cheesy voiceover
- Is there a more unsung guest actor in TV Trek than Jeffrey Combs? Feels like every second episode, there he is, playing another random alien.
- The Kira surrogate pregnancy is weird, and I can't help but feel were it modern TV they absolutely would have made more of O'Brien / Kira tension.

In fairness, Jake was kinda annoying during the first season. But as the actor and the character both grew and as the situations the station found itself in grew more dark and more complex, Jake really started coming into its own.

That's something TNG never really had, so there was no room for Wesley Crusher to actually grow into much. It's funny, because now Wil Wheaton has become this... idol somewhat with geek/nerd culture by his own work.

Optimus Prime

I think the father\son relationship between jake and sisko is one of the most believable ever on tv, their interactions where spot on, you really believed they where related.

Optimus Prime

Optimus Prime wrote: »

I think the father\son relationship between jake and sisko is one of the most believable ever on tv, their interactions where spot on, you really believed they where related.

So very true.

I really think that DS9 had the best casting of any of the Trek franchise. You really believed in the characters and their relationships with each other.

Rawr

Deleted User wrote: »

In fairness, Jake was kinda annoying during the first season. But as the actor and the character both grew and as the situations the station found itself in grew more dark and more complex, Jake really started coming into its own.

That's something TNG never really had, so there was no room for Wesley Crusher to actually grow into much. It's funny, because now Wil Wheaton has become this... idol somewhat with geek/nerd culture by his own work.

I remember many years ago I somehow stumbled on Wil Wheton's Star Trek Blog. I wish I could find it again because it was a joy read about his experiences on the TNG set which were often interwoven with reviews of the episodes themselves. I enjoyed it so much that my opinion of Wheton changed instantly, especially when I learned why Weasley Crusher was so damn annoying back in the day.

According to Wheton, during the first few days of production on TNG he got to work with some directors he already knew and had a good working relationship with. Very-early Weasley isn't all that bad either, but a few episodes in, things really start to go downhill with "The Boy".

By the 3rd/4th episode of production in Season 1, the directors are swapped out and replaced by a guy who develops an instant dislike for Wheton. So much so, that he introduces lines and character direction to make Crusher all that more annoying. Apparently the whiny-rant where he complains to Picard that he's not being listened to because he's not an Adult crew-member; was thrown in there intentionally to get people to hate Wheton's character (according to him).

Given the context of his other complaints on the show and it's production I'm likely be believe his story. It was going to be a hard-sell to begin with (as a child I hated seeing other kids in my otherwise good scifi shows), but I guess it would be damn near impossible if your chracter is actually getting sabotaged mid-show

But that DataLore episode gave us "Shut up Wesley" and, subsequently, https://twitter.com/SirPatStew/status/351533474349461504

pixelburp

Optimus Prime wrote: »

I think the father\son relationship between jake and sisko is one of the most believable ever on tv, their interactions where spot on, you really believed they where related.

Big time: I think it's one place Avery Brooks' slightly demented performance really gels; there's a sweet, affable closeness between Jake & Ben that never seems built on tropes or cliché. There's no army-family bullsh*t, no forced adolescence drama, just a genuinely decent father & son relationship that works.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

Big time: I think it's one place Avery Brooks' slightly demented performance really gels; there's a sweet, affable closeness between Jake & Ben that never seems built on tropes or cliché. There's no army-family bullsh*t, no forced adolescence drama, just a genuinely decent father & son relationship that works.

It's that relationship which pays such dividends in The Visitor

Inviere

Deleted User wrote: »

It's that relationship which pays such dividends in The Visitor

Indeed, and the finale

donspeekinglesh

pixelburp wrote: »

- Is there a more unsung guest actor in TV Trek than Jeffrey Combs? Feels like every second episode, there he is, playing another random alien.

Even played Brunt and Weyoun in the same episode at one stage.

donspeekinglesh

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Even played Brunt and Weyoun in the same episode at one stage.

Was he not in the running for Lord of the Rings: Wormtongue, especially after the Jackson directed Frighteners?

Now Brad Dourif played him brilliantly but I always thought that the way he was scripted was perfect for Combs

The_Valeyard

Inviere wrote: »

Indeed, and the finale

Yeah, Jake Reay gets ****ed over I'm that.

pixelburp

About halfway through Season 5 now. Watching Enterprise too in rough parallel - you really get a proper sense of the quality dip in Trek TV when you watch the best at the same as the worst.

DS9s "For the Uniform" was a tense drama of obsession and betrayal in the Federation. Avery Brooks was his maniacal best. Enterprise's "One Night in Sickbay" was... well, not those things.

I also watched "Trials and Tribble-ations" with mixed emotions: it's still as fun as it ever was, but man it left quite the continuity legacy in its wake!

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

About halfway through Season 5 now. Watching Enterprise too in rough parallel - you really get a proper sense of the quality dip in Trek TV when you watch the best at the same as the worst.

DS9s "For the Uniform" was a tense drama of obsession and betrayal in the Federation. Avery Brooks was his maniacal best. Enterprise's "One Night in Sickbay" was... well, not those things.

I also watched "Trials and Tribble-ations" with mixed emotions: it's still as fun as it ever was, but man it left quite the continuity legacy in its wake!

It's actually fascinating when you watch the making of it. What they pulled off with 90s TV show budgets is incredible.