Deep Space Nine Runthrough

Evade

Rawr wrote: »

I can't think of a way out that doesn't involve DS9 being destroyed so maybe that's why they never did that?

It depends on when. DS9 takes a pounding from a few different fleets over the years and dishes out as good as it gets.

Blazer

Rawr wrote: »

I often wondered about the The Borg Vs. The Dominion.
Some maps put the The Dominion not all at far from established Borg space (in relation to the reach of the Borg fleet).



I know that map is probably not cannon, but it gives an idea of how I'm thinking. I would expect that the Dominion would put up one hell of a fight against the Borg but would ultimately lose. The Dominion's military technology might attract an all out Borg invasion.

I reckon they wouldn’t have. Remember the majority of the dominion lived on the one planet.
All the borg would have needed to do was assimilate Jem h’dar or the Weyoun species (can’t remember exact name atm) and they would have known the location. It would have been impossible to assimilate the dominion due to their natural state so they would have just destroyed the planet.

Honestly that map (and it's not too far off what we've seen) show just how the writers painted Trek into a corner.

They made the galaxy way too frikken small, they should never have made the ships so fast.
In the days of mega fast ships, subspace comms, and intra galactic trade there is not way that there could be a new big bad hiding somewhere in the unexplored space.
They would be known about through the space grapevine

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

In the days of mega fast ships, subspace comms, and intra galactic trade there is not way that there could be a new big bad hiding somewhere in the unexplored space.
They would be known about through the space grapevine

I don't see that as a negative. They don't need to be some previously unseen hostile species attacking out of nowhere there's way more story opportunities from long standing tensions coming to a head. Or have it be a purely political conflict that doesn't fit into neat little species boxes with one or two exceptions. Or bring back the era of the crazy flag officer.



The worst thing about the galaxy map is it doesn't go alpha, beta, gamma, delta in a clockwise or counter clockwise direction.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

I don't see that as a negative. They don't need to be some previously unseen hostile species attacking out of nowhere there's way more story opportunities from long standing tensions coming to a head. Or have it be a purely political conflict that doesn't fit into neat little species boxes with one or two exceptions. Or bring back the era of the crazy flag officer.

I agree but it's always onto the next big bad in shows, it's what ruined SG1.

Especially as Voyager made the Federation technical gods, in the final episode. I mean how many borg cubes did they one-shot? And they had more tech than could be adapted to the ship at that time. No current power could match them

pixelburp

I'm quite glad the Borg never showed up in DS9; to me, it would have made the narrative far too crowded; it's not like there wasn't enough going on around the wormhole without an extra agent of chaos in the mix.

The Borg are played out though in my book: like the Zombie, they're a concept & enemy that has very limited scope for storytelling, and both have broadly overstayed their welcome to the point that it's debatable if they're even that scary anymore.

Contradictorily (from a canon POV), the only scenario I could see them working would be to drop them into pre TNG stories (ie, Discovery), where tech & ignorance would restore them as an unbeatable, unknowable plague.

Indricotherium

My thoughts on Emissary:

By far the best first episode. Sets up the characters well, great story, bit of tension. Everything you want. Stands out as not having a 'bad guy'. Uneasy workplace relationships and galactic politics provide the tension.

The effects, and sets really hold up. I wasn't taken out of the story once by a bogey special effect.

The orbs, Odo and the interior of the wormhole are the only effects that have really dated. Thankfully we don't see too much of the orbs thru out the series, and we only get the odd view of the interior of the wormhole. I think they change the Odo effect after this episode.

The makeup is super. Even the background Cardassians and Ferengi look perfect.

The sets are brilliant. They also must be huge! It seems like quarks is a different set to later on?

Some of the pauses for a bit of exposition are grating, and seem a bit dated now; Kira, Bashir, Odo. There's episodes dedicated to their back stories coming up so they seem a bit redundant.

In-universe notes:

The Cardassians are revealed as bottlers early. They talk big, but when push comes to shove they are reluctant to fight.

Sisko induces Odo, a foreign law enforcement officer he met earlier that day, to perform an act of sabotage on a third parties ship - Given the very recent war, and uneasy peace that exists between the Federation and the Cardassian Union this seems INCREDIBLY reckless.

When did the Cardassians leave? The bajorans seem to have a fairly well developed system of military with proper ranks, uniforms and equipment. I get the impression that the Cardassians only abandoned the station weeks or days before the start of the series yet there's not a hint of the resistance cell about the bajorans military. It's all clean cut fellas standing to attention.

How did Kira end up as attaché to the Federation team? Aside from her patent unsuitability for the role, she is revealed to already up to her eyeballs in politics and would seem to have enough pull to avoid a detail she genuinely didn't want.

Picard seems to have some sort of supervisory role over Sisko.

Discovering the wormhole came at exactly the right time for the Federation, all of its immediate neighbours seem to be peer empires in terms of tech and military power: the breen, the romulans, the Klingons, the Cardassians leaving expansion difficult. The wormhole is exactly the pressure release needed to prevent a war. The discovery of an usable route to the Americas is a parallel in our own history.

The station seems a lot smaller compared to the enterprise than it is in later seasons?

Indricotherium

Indricotherium wrote: »

My thoughts on Emissary:

By far the best first episode. Sets up the characters well, great story, bit of tension. Everything you want. Stands out as not having a 'bad guy'. Uneasy workplace relationships and galactic politics provide the tension.

The effects, and sets really hold up. I wasn't taken out of the story once by a bogey special effect.

The orbs, Odo and the interior of the wormhole are the only effects that have really dated. Thankfully we don't see too much of the orbs thru out the series, and we only get the odd view of the interior of the wormhole. I think they change the Odo effect after this episode.

The makeup is super. Even the background Cardassians and Ferengi look perfect.

The sets are brilliant. They also must be huge! It seems like quarks is a different set to later on?

Some of the pauses for a bit of exposition are grating, and seem a bit dated now; Kira, Bashir, Odo. There's episodes dedicated to their back stories coming up so they seem a bit redundant.

In-universe notes:

The Cardassians are revealed as bottlers early. They talk big, but when push comes to shove they are reluctant to fight.

Sisko induces Odo, a foreign law enforcement officer he met earlier that day, to perform an act of sabotage on a third parties ship - Given the very recent war, and uneasy peace that exists between the Federation and the Cardassian Union this seems INCREDIBLY reckless.

When did the Cardassians leave? The bajorans seem to have a fairly well developed system of military with proper ranks, uniforms and equipment. I get the impression that the Cardassians only abandoned the station weeks or days before the start of the series yet there's not a hint of the resistance cell about the bajorans military. It's all clean cut fellas standing to attention.

How did Kira end up as attaché to the Federation team? Aside from her patent unsuitability for the role, she is revealed to already up to her eyeballs in politics and would seem to have enough pull to avoid a detail she genuinely didn't want.

Picard seems to have some sort of supervisory role over Sisko.

Discovering the wormhole came at exactly the right time for the Federation, all of its immediate neighbours seem to be peer empires in terms of tech and military power: the breen, the romulans, the Klingons, the Cardassians leaving expansion difficult. The wormhole is exactly the pressure release needed to prevent a war. The discovery of an usable route to the Americas is a parallel in our own history.

The station seems a lot smaller compared to the enterprise than it is in later seasons?

A post of yours, relating to Trek, I broadly agree with??
Didn't think that would happen

Indricotherium

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A post of yours, relating to Trek, I broadly agree with??
Didn't think that would happen

Further thought:

What's Sisko doing acting out Judge Dread on the promenade. Shooting off phasers at a child. Threatening a child with long term prison "in a cold cell".

He then releases the victim in an absurd plea deal with the child's uncle.

All without consulting the Bajoran authorities under whose jurisdiction the crime, and arrest, took place.

Rawr

Indricotherium wrote: »

When did the Cardassians leave? The bajorans seem to have a fairly well developed system of military with proper ranks, uniforms and equipment. I get the impression that the Cardassians only abandoned the station weeks or days before the start of the series yet there's not a hint of the resistance cell about the bajorans military. It's all clean cut fellas standing to attention.

I often wondered this one myself. It does look like the Cardassians left the station a few days/hours ago, and probably only just departed Bajor a few weeks ago. Yet, they've got their own Star-Fleet design of communicator, their own Phaser and loads of other stuff.

If I remember right, the Cardassians occupied from only 50 years prior to the events of DS9. It might be possible that a lot of the trappings of the previous Bajoran administration were still available to the newly freed Bajoran militia.

Also, remember that upon independance from the UK, Ireland had symbols and uniforms in place for what ended up being the Free State army, a lot of which was made up of resistance fighters. Similarly, the Bajoran resistance could have been organised enough to just convert into the official militia once the Cardassians were gone.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree but it's always onto the next big bad in shows, it's what ruined SG1.

Especially as Voyager made the Federation technical gods, in the final episode. I mean how many borg cubes did they one-shot? And they had more tech than could be adapted to the ship at that time. No current power could match them

A time skip into the 25th Century will largely solve that issue since the future tech is from 26 years in the future. None of the other big powers will let that gap stand for long anyway, they'll all try to come up with countermeasures or outright steal the technology. Remember how unbeatable the Dominion ships were in the first few engagements? Less than two years later the Federation, Klingon, and Romulan forces could go toe to toe with them.

Then there's the already more advanced civilisations like the Tholians and maybe the Hur'Q if they come out of hiding. How will they react to this sudden leap in Federation technology?

That's if they don't retcon in Admiral Janeway having some kind of kill switch in place that disables all that future tech on Voyager once it's safely back in the Alpha Quadrant or have the Federation bar it's use like cloaks in the treaty of Algeron.

odyssey06

Evade wrote: »

A time skip into the 25th Century will largely solve that issue since the future tech is from 26 years in the future. None of the other big powers will let that gap stand for long anyway, they'll all try to come up with countermeasures or outright steal the technology...
Then there's the already more advanced civilisations like the Tholians and maybe the Hur'Q if they come out of hiding. How will they react to this sudden leap in Federation technology?

You'd probably like this Star Trek novel series which picks up the thread post TV - I will just mention it in passing as the novels would warrant their own thread \ spoiler warnings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Typhon_Pact

Indricotherium

Evade wrote: »

r have the Federation bar it's use like cloaks in the treaty of Algeron.

The federations secret intelligence service uses cloaking technology with impunity.

On at least one occasion, less clandestine elements of Starfleet try to develop an even more advanced 'phase' cloak.

Even when the use of a cloaking device is granted by the RSE the federation immediately violates the terms agreed for it's use by using it in the alpha quadrant for a dramatic reveal.

Inviere

Deleted User wrote: »

Especially as Voyager made the Federation technical gods, in the final episode.

That's always used as a reason not to see anything post-Voyager in canon. It's something that always bothered me because it's so easily gotten around. If I recall, Voyager was knocking Borg cubes out for fun, but after each one, the Borg were adapting, and adapting, and adapting. It's reasonable to assume that not long after Voyager was home, that the Borg had either adapted, or weren't as easily dispatched by the weapons as they were at the beginning.

It's further reasonable to assume that the Federation would share this tech with its allies such as the Klingons, and other powers, to ultimately prevent large sections of the Alpha Quadrant being assimilated and becoming Borg space/beachheads.

Combine that with the fact that it was the Klingons, that Janeway stole the armor tech we seen, meaning that at some point in the future the Klingons have that tech too (paradoxically from the above perhaps?)...it all makes for a fairly stable footing for continuing on in canon. The real problem, is as pointed out above, the Galaxy is ultimately portrayed as being too small/largely explored. Inter-galactic exploration, real frontier stuff, is a solid way to get going again. Among other things like what happened to the Romulan empire, the Cardassian rebuilding project, the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant, etc etc. There's still so much to explore, see, and do. But no, lets see what happened when Kirk was but a wee lad...

Evade

Inviere wrote: »

Combine that with the fact that it was the Klingons, that Janeway stole the armor tech we seen,

Janeway got the time travel device from the Klingon scientist not the armour. The shuttle already had the armour and the Klingon time travel device prevented her shuttle's armour from deploying.


If anything changes the balance of power in the Alpha Quadrant it's the Klingons having easy time travel by 2404, how many Arne Darvins are there in the Empire that would love to turn a defeat at the hands of the Federation/Romulans/Cardassians/Dominion/Breen into a victory?

odyssey06 wrote: »

You'd probably like this Star Trek novel series which picks up the thread post TV - I will just mention it in passing as the novels would warrant their own thread \ spoiler warnings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Typhon_Pact

That does look interesting. Could I jump in on this series or would I need to read the ones leading up to it?

odyssey06

Evade wrote: »

That does look interesting. Could I jump in on this series or would I need to read the ones leading up to it?

I think ideally read the Destiny series books before the Typhon Pact ones or at least find a synopsis\timeline online if you can track one down.

Inviere

Evade wrote: »

Janeway got the time travel device from the Klingon scientist not the armour. The shuttle already had with the armour and the Klingon time travel device prevented her shuttle's armour from deploying.

My bad, correct

If anything changes the balance of power in the Alpha Quadrant it's the Klingons having easy time travel by 2404, how many Arne Darvins are there in the Empire that would love to turn a defeat at the hands of the Federation/Romulans/Cardassians/Dominion/Breen into a victory?

Well there you go:

Federation - "We will give you knowledge of the Armor tech and transphasic torepdoes, in exchange for abandoning all pursuits of temporal/time travel technology"

Klingon Empire - "We...agree."

Khitomer Accords
Ademdum of 2379

Or something...

Inviere

Inviere wrote: »

That's always used as a reason not to see anything post-Voyager in canon. It's something that always bothered me because it's so easily gotten around. If I recall, Voyager was knocking Borg cubes out for fun, but after each one, the Borg were adapting, and adapting, and adapting. It's reasonable to assume that not long after Voyager was home, that the Borg had either adapted, or weren't as easily dispatched by the weapons as they were at the beginning.

It's further reasonable to assume that the Federation would share this tech with its allies such as the Klingons, and other powers, to ultimately prevent large sections of the Alpha Quadrant being assimilated and becoming Borg space/beachheads.

Combine that with the fact that it was the Klingons, that Janeway stole the armor tech we seen, meaning that at some point in the future the Klingons have that tech too (paradoxically from the above perhaps?)...it all makes for a fairly stable footing for continuing on in canon. The real problem, is as pointed out above, the Galaxy is ultimately portrayed as being too small/largely explored. Inter-galactic exploration, real frontier stuff, is a solid way to get going again. Among other things like what happened to the Romulan empire, the Cardassian rebuilding project, the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant, etc etc. There's still so much to explore, see, and do. But no, lets see what happened when Kirk was but a wee lad...

There are 250 Billion stars in the Milky-way, there should never have been a need to go to another galaxy.

Andromeda has a trillion stars but how do you get there? A generational ship cut off from earth (Star Gate Atlantis-esque) or another lost in space rip like Voyager?

Because if they can travel to other galaxies they are well stronger than anything they find there, as they've not travelled to Milky

Inviere

Deleted User wrote: »

There are 250 Billion stars in the Milky-way, there should never have been a need to go to another galaxy.

Indeed, but here we are...all four quadrants have had some stage time at this stage.

Andromeda has a trillion stars but how do you get there? A generational ship cut off from earth (Star Gate Atlantis-esque) or another lost in space rip like Voyager?

Advanced propulsion, so it's not at all like Voyager...they can come and go. It takes a bit longer to get home from Andromeda, sure, but they can get home if needs be.

Because if they can travel to other galaxies they are well stronger than anything they find there, as they've not travelled to Milky

You could apply that logic to local exploration too though. "I won't find anything out there, because it hasn't found me." It doesn't really hold up. Intergalactic exploration could offer some real prime directive challenges, some core-Trek exploration, some hostile scenarios, diplomatic scenarios, and all manner of stories. And at that, it's but one solution, of many, to the problem.

Indricotherium

odyssey06 wrote: »

I think ideally read the Destiny series books before the Typhon Pact ones or at least find a synopsis\timeline online if you can track one down.

Yuck. Don't start reading startrek.

It's decent television, leave it at that.

Startrek derived books are just absurd contrivances to mix characters from different series together. They are generally poor fanfiction where the mcguffin is whatever durt ex machina the author thinks is clever.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

There are 250 Billion stars in the Milky-way, there should never have been a need to go to another galaxy.

Andromeda has a trillion stars but how do you get there? A generational ship cut off from earth (Star Gate Atlantis-esque) or another lost in space rip like Voyager?

Because if they can travel to other galaxies they are well stronger than anything they find there, as they've not travelled to Milky

The DASH drive in STD could make it to Andromeda in about ten hours or the quantum slipstream drive from Voyager could do it in about ten years.

EDIT: I forgot about TNG. The pedophile drive covered that distance in a few seconds and the drive Barclay made in the Nth degree was almost instantaneous.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

The DASH drive in STD could make it to Andromeda in about ten hours or the quantum slipstream drive from Voyager could do it in about ten years.

DASH won't feature. High transwarp yeah but still Trek needs to go to Andromeda?
Just soft reboot, put all known happenings in alpha quadrant and decrease top speeds.

Or blast galaxy with omega explosion and how civilisation has to recover and find new propulsive technology

brainfreeze

I don't really see this tiny galaxy problem other are posting about.

The only thing been mapped is the blue grids, that means even the majority of the alpha quadrant hasn't even been explored yet.

They can only reach the gamma quadrant through a wormhole, not technology.

The vast majority of the star trek milky way is uncharted. Just because they know certain areas of the milky way are "x space" doesn't mean its been explored or even visited. That's just intel and estimations.

I think intergalactic would be jumping the shark.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

DASH won't feature. High transwarp yeah but still Trek needs to go to Andromeda?

I'm not saying Trek needs to go there I'm saying the ability to get there doesn't make you unbeatable. I'm perfectly happy to stay in the Milky Way sandbox and explore the established and alluded to races with a sprinkling of new ones.

Inviere

Deleted User wrote: »

but still Trek needs to go to Andromeda?

If it's reachable, is unexplored, and offers new storytelling opportunities? Why not? Exploration is at the very heart of Star Trek. I'd agree with you in that it shouldn't have come to this, but we have what we have. I'd give bloody anything a shot at this stage to stop having to go through prequel after prequel.

Or blast galaxy with omega explosion and how civilisation has to recover and find new propulsive technology

I'm not sure that'd appeal to me really. Without warp drive, you're reducing the stakes, and bringing things towards a more confined setting.

brainfreeze

brainfreeze wrote: »

I don't really see this tiny galaxy problem other are posting about.

The only thing been mapped is the blue grids, that means even the majority of the alpha quadrant hasn't even been explored yet.

They can only reach the gamma quadrant through a wormhole, not technology.

The vast majority of the star trek milky way is uncharted. Just because they know certain areas of the milky way are "x space" doesn't mean its been explored or even visited. That's just intel and estimations.

I think intergalactic would be jumping the shark.

They have massive telescopes scanning, huge neighbours with their own trading networks. There's enough discovered and communication to know what's far beyond borders.

If they hadn't gone delta/gamma it would be ok but there's huge powers 8n each that the space between is not that big

odyssey06

Indricotherium wrote: »

Yuck. Don't start reading startrek.
It's decent television, leave it at that.
Startrek derived books are just absurd contrivances to mix characters from different series together. They are generally poor fanfiction where the mcguffin is whatever durt ex machina the author thinks is clever.

Some people would say that about rewatching DS9 which ended in the last century!

The books are hit and miss, it's very author dependent. Some of them are very entertaining, although yes they can be contrived \ a bit fanfic as they find reasons to bring old favourites into the plots.
But if you are craving a Star Trek hit they will do the job nicely, and the Typhon Pact series I think is one of the stronger ones - as were The Lost Era books and the Fall of Terok Nor Bajoran occupation series.
Earlier in the thread I recommended some of the DS9 novels set in same continuity as the TV series, for those who are open to the idea

Indricotherium

A man Alone:

Great episode. Shocking change in pace from emissary. The cracks in Bajoran society caused by the occupation are laid bare.

Maybe if it wasn't the second episode, then you'd be more worried about Odo being guilty. A main character was never going to go this early.

The whole way through I thought the

fella whipping up the mob was Eboudan so it was a nice surprise when it was the auld lad at the end.

The guy whipping up the crowd seems like he could have been a great character. I don't think he appears again?

No mention of Siskos role as emissary of the prophets. This surprised me. I thought it got off the ground more or less right away.

Notes:

In-universe

Eboudans quarters are MENTAL. One massive chair, and a bed built into the wall. Dark lighting. mad angles. Given that it is, at least on the outside, a Bajoran ship its strange that it isn't all bronzed arches inside.

Would have been nice to see Bashir master the sphere game later in the series.

Rom is drastically different to later in the series.

Bashir is proved right already. If he’d taken the research post or the star ship he probably wouldn’t be investigating a murder now.

Odo is completely unreasonable with Sisko when relieved of the investigation. Kira is also totally unreasonable.

How was the security office, the back door of which, leads to the brig, wrecked without anyone noticing.

There seems to be several members of the Bajoran military in the mob trying to lynch Odo. That's got to show up in a performance review later?

Sisko Breaks out the phasers again on the Promenade. That’s two episodes in a row. He's really fond of firing off a few rounds to frighten the crowds.

Sweet irony that Odo a shapeshifter was almost fooled by a man in rubber mask disguise.

Out Universe:

Odo has a nice shakey walk around the murder scene, making sure to get his

DNA everywhere while there are witnesses.

Aired January 1993, 2 years before the OJ case brought forensic DNA to general public knowledge so all the talk DNA would have been mega cutting edge.

Sisko and co beam onto a besieged planet. Sisko gets very cocky. I know you've been here 5 months but you'll have to get over it
I doubt u would say that if it was u stuck there without your comfy station sisko

Damn it captain, I'm an engineer not a magician

Evade

bluewolf wrote: »

Sisko and co beam onto a besieged planet. Sisko gets very cocky. I know you've been here 5 months but you'll have to get over it
I doubt u would say that if it was u stuck there without your comfy station sisko

Damn it captain, I'm an engineer not a magician

To be fair he did stay and fight. Starfleet really needs a Marine Corps, using doctors and therapists as infantry is bizarre.