Deep Space Nine Runthrough

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pixelburp wrote: »

It's probably another one of the things that makes Wrath of Khan (and to a lesser extent, the Search for Spock) such great films; they held Kirk's lechery and womanising to account, forcing him to confront a past conquest in Dr. Carol Marcus and the obvious immediate consequences of that dalliance - a son. The actor playing the son was pretty poor, but it's a shame Search for Spock killed off David so soon (and subsequent scripts never mentioning him again).

Agreed, I loved the 'human' side of Kirk...his loyalty, his drive, and energy. The womanising was probably the trait-to-have in the 1960's, but it has no real place today, on screen or off.

As for the JJverse, welllllll. Yeah. Kirk's womanising was the least of those films' problems!

That's kinda my point, it gets brushed aside so easily.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

It's probably another one of the things that makes Wrath of Khan (and to a lesser extent, the Search for Spock) such great films; they held Kirk's lechery and womanising to account, forcing him to confront a past conquest in Dr. Carol Marcus and the obvious immediate consequences of that dalliance - a son. The actor playing the son was pretty poor, but it's a shame Search for Spock killed off David so soon (and subsequent scripts never mentioning him again).

As for the JJverse, welllllll. Yeah. Kirk's womanising was the least of those films' problems!

The klingons killed my son... let them die?

pixelburp

Deleted User wrote: »

The klingons killed my son... let them die?

Fair enough, just don't recall all that much from Treks IV and V; I suppose Kirk mourning for his son might have taken the fun out of the wacky whale hunting

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

I love where the character eventually went,

ah i duno - he couldn't get jadzia so he ended up with the naive replacement...

It wasn't a particularly singular case of a screenwriting trope either: for obvious reasons it's not visible anymore, but there was a pretty common clichfor romantic pairings to write the man as the affable "nice guy", simply too in love to take 'no' for an answer, and pretty much stalking & harassing her til - hooray! - she gives up and sees what a lovely guy he really is. I never thought of it was deliberately malicious, but only accidentally letting the eagerness to pair off the fictional characters, at the expense of normal, acceptable behaviour.

like geordi
YOU SHOULD BE FLATTERED IM CREEPING ON A HOLODECK VERSION OF YOU

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bluewolf wrote: »

like geordi
YOU SHOULD BE FLATTERED IM CREEPING ON A HOLODECK VERSION OF YOU

Always interesting how in TNG, Geordi is the 'holodeck creep' these days...while Barclay gets a serious free pass. The difference between what each did on the holodeck is night and day, yet Geordi comes off as the creep. Mad.

pixelburp

Barclay gets a pass because he wasn't a series regular, so doesn't tend to come up in conversation & debate all that much. Don't think there's anything to it beyond that; he just wasn't in the show enough to command the kind of examination all the main cast endured over the years.

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pixelburp wrote: »

Barclay gets a pass because he wasn't a series regular, so doesn't tend to come up in conversation & debate all that much. Don't think there's anything to it beyond that; he just wasn't in the show enough to command the kind of examination all the main cast endured over the years.

Meh, I'd consider that a bs excuse. If you want to examine sexual assault/consent in terms of holodeck use, Barclay is where you look. Again, Geordi is the 'fashionable' target by retrospectively interpretive edge-lords these days, much like Bashir.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

Barclay gets a pass because he wasn't a series regular, so doesn't tend to come up in conversation & debate all that much. Don't think there's anything to it beyond that; he just wasn't in the show enough to command the kind of examination all the main cast endured over the years.

I think it's a combination of that plus how geordi got so genuinely outraged that she wasn't flattered and falling over him as a result.
Barclay was at least embarrassed about it. Like of course it was creepy. And geordi always seemed sound otherwise so it was pretty shocking. barclay was always introduced as this weird awkward guy


I always had a soft spot for bashir though. rawr.

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bluewolf wrote: »

Barclay was at least embarrassed about it

Ah well that's ok then. Fair enough, he purposely and intentionally recreated his friends on the holodeck to use for his sexual gratification...it's grand though, he felt bad about it. Geordi is the real baddie here.

Inviere

Inviere wrote: »

Ah well that's ok then. Fair enough, he purposely and intentionally recreated his friends on the holodeck to use for his sexual gratification...it's grand though, he felt bad about it. Geordi is the real baddie here.

Do you have a secret holodeck of your crush set up or something

pixelburp

Inviere wrote: »

Meh, I'd consider that a bs excuse. If you want to examine sexual assault/consent in terms of holodeck use, Barclay is where you look. Again, Geordi is the 'fashionable' target by retrospectively interpretive edge-lords these days, much like Bashir.

What Bluewolf said below; tbh when you even said his name I had to backtrack mentally to even know what you were talking about (the holodeck fantasies right?). Don't think there's any fashions going on here, it's a touch of the bad faith going on here to be calling folks edge-lords because the main cast are more fair game than some side character.

bluewolf wrote: »

I think it's a combination of that plus how geordi got so genuinely outraged she wasn't flattered and falling over him as a result.
Barclay was at least embarrassed about it

bluewolf

bluewolf wrote: »

I think it's a combination of that plus how geordi got so genuinely outraged that she wasn't flattered and falling over him as a result.
Barclay was at least embarrassed about it. Like of course it was creepy


I always had a soft spot for bashir though. rawr.

And Barclay was shown to be a person of crippling personality issues. Where he was compensating for his own terrible sense of self worth.



There was also no real world analogue to his holodeck fantasies his holodecks were opposite land where he was great and desirable (he "knew" that he was none of these), as opposed to Geordi who did meet and get upset that Brahms didn't measure up to his holo fantasy.

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bluewolf wrote: »

Do you have a secret holodeck of your crush set up or something

Ah the good ol' ad homonim...alive an well in 2019

pixelburp

Inviere wrote: »

Ah the good ol' ad homonim...alove an well in 2019

Ya just called folks trying to discuss the main cast's character flaws as 'edge lords', so to invoke the school yard... you started it.

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Inviere wrote: »

Ah the good ol' ad homonim...alove an well in 2019

says your man with the edge lords!
just trying to lighten the mood a bit! i don't think anyone thinks you have a holodeck don't worry

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pixelburp wrote: »

Don't think there's any fashions going on here, it's a touch of the bad faith going on here to be calling folks edge-lords

Well I wasn't referring to bluewolf's opinions per se, more so that it's a common thing now for people to online to attack Bashir & Geordi. See here - https://www.ladyscience.com/blog/davis-dr-leah-brahms - as I said, fashionable targets. For me, Barclay's deeds on the holodeck go far, far, far beyond what Bashir or Geordi ever did. He recreated someone he knew for sexual gratification, that's about a serious a violation of trust as you can get; it matters not that he was socially awkward and suffered from anxiety, he knew right from wrong, lets not kid ourselves.

because the main cast are more fair game than some side character.

I'm less so interested in how many episodes someone was in, it's the concepts and repercussions of such that interests me more.

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bluewolf wrote: »

says your man with the edge lords!

See above, wasn't directed at you. Apologies if it seemed so.

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Inviere wrote: »

Well I wasn't referring to bluewolf's opinions per se, more so that it's a common thing now for people to online to attack Bashir & Geordi. See here - https://www.ladyscience.com/blog/davis-dr-leah-brahms - as I said, fashionable targets. For me, Barclay's deeds on the holodeck go far, far, far beyond what Bashir or Geordi ever did. He recreated someone he knew for sexual gratification, that's about a serious a violation of trust as you can get; it matters not that he was socially awkward and suffered from anxiety, he knew right from wrong, lets not kid ourselves.



I'm less so interested in how many episodes someone was in, it's the concepts and repercussions of such that interests me more.

Like you've never *ahem* fantasised about someone you know :pac::pac::pac:

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Haha, I dunno. I appreciate that Jadzia was capable of dealing with his advances, but it always felt like in those early days it was mostly Jadzia being Kurzon, rather than the more interesting mix she later became. Julian was a creep though, 'doe eyed' only stretches so far; I love where the character eventually went, but that described behaviour previously was stalking at best, sexual assault at worst. You certainly never saw anything remotely like it with any other "Julian falls in love with..." plots later on.

That's more than a bit of a reach. Julian was definitely overly persistent but sexual assault is a whole other level. The closest he probably ever came to anything actually questionable in that regard was pursuing relationships with patients, which he did at least twice.

a_squirrelman

Inviere wrote: »

bluewolf wrote: »

Barclay was at least embarrassed about it

Ah well that's ok then. Fair enough, he purposely and intentionally recreated his friends on the holodeck to use for his sexual gratification...it's grand though, he felt bad about it. Geordi is the real baddie here.

Touchy about this topic.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

That's more than a bit of a reach. Julian was definitely overly persistent but sexual assault is a whole other level. The closest he probably ever came to anything actually questionable in that regard was pursuing relationships with patients, which he did at least twice.

'Assault' is a stretch, 'harassment' isn't though; either way, he was a bloody sex pest at the start of Season 1 and only Jadzia's good natured treatment gives it any sense of playfulness. Following someone to their house/home/quarters. Yeeeeesh.

Whether it was external advice, or simply seeing Siddig's lecherousness on-screen (who had definite blindspots as an actor) , that whole element of Bashir was quietly canned. And to be fair, it wasn't just the harassment as his overall personality got a bit of a reboot / streamlining. He was pretty insufferable at first - good job O'Brien sorted him out

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

'Assault' is a stretch, 'harassment' isn't though

I know, that's why I only highlighted the assault part.

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a_squirrelman wrote: »

Touchy about this topic.

I wouldn't say touchy, I mean, I like Star Trek as much as anyone here but I never go full neckbeard

pixelburp wrote: »

'Assault' is a stretch, 'harassment' isn't though; either way, he was a bloody sex pest at the start of Season 1 and only Jadzia's good natured treatment gives it any sense of playfulness. Following someone to their house/home/quarters. Yeeeeesh.

I think the above is fair enough. Following Jadzia to her quarters in that episode "Dax" was definitely crossing the line into pest territory. Here's the transcript:

BASHIR: Another raktajino?
DAX: It'll keep me up all night.
BASHIR: I can think of better ways of keeping you up. And they're more fun than drinking Klingon coffee
DAX: Definitely type one.
(A man is watching through the grating. He is joined by another.)
PEERS: Dax.
DAX: I really should be getting to bed.
BASHIR: May I escort you to your quarters?
DAX: That's not necessary, Julian.
BASHIR: Oh, well, good night then.
(Dax leaves, and the men come out of their hiding place to follow her.)
BASHIR: Not necessary, Julian. But not forbidden, either.

Again though, we've seen far, far worse examples of behaviour in Star Trek, and ones that could be argued as sexual assault. What Barclay did in the Holodeck to Troi was unforgivable, but is never really highlighted. I can only imagine the backlash against Bashir had he intently recreated Jadzia on the holosuite, and used her image for his sexual gratification. Sure, Barclay isn't a main character, but if you're going to examine creeps, sexual assault, consent, etc, in the world of Star Trek, there's bigger fish to fry than Julian Bashir and Geordi La Forge.

muckwarrior

Inviere wrote: »

Again though, we've seen far, far worse examples of behaviour in Star Trek, and ones that could be argued as sexual assault. What Barclay did in the Holodeck to Troi was unforgivable, but is never really highlighted. I can only imagine the backlash against Bashir had he intently recreated Jadzia on the holosuite, and used her image for his sexual gratification. Sure, Barclay isn't a main character, but if you're going to examine creeps, sexual assault, consent, etc, in the world of Star Trek, there's bigger fish to fry than Julian Bashir and Geordi La Forge.

This is a Deep Space 9 thread, and I don't think anyone ever claimed that Bashir was the only one to ever act creepily on Star Trek.

pixelburp

Inviere wrote: »

Again though, we've seen far, far worse examples of behaviour in Star Trek, and ones that could be argued as sexual assault. What Barclay did in the Holodeck to Troi was unforgivable, but is never really highlighted. I can only imagine the backlash against Bashir had he intently recreated Jadzia on the holosuite, and used her image for his sexual gratification. Sure, Barclay isn't a main character, but if you're going to examine creeps, sexual assault, consent, etc, in the world of Star Trek, there's bigger fish to fry than Julian Bashir and Geordi La Forge.

Agree to disagree here because it feels like splitting hairs; all I'll say is beyond the relative popularity of a character - which surely is a factor - the context in which it was presented is an important part of the discussion: Barclay's transgressions were always presented in the narrative as egregious, whereas Bashir's felt like the script thought it playful and cheeky. The coding was as distasteful as the action itself, and certainly for me that's as big a problem.

But hey, the only consistent thing about Treks attitudes towards sex was that it was thoroughly inconsistent IMO. DS9 felt like the first iteration to at least acknowledge the messiness of romantic relationships, without or without sex. TNG always felt so cold and like its characters were eunuchs.

Bashir's leeriness wasn't the only time DS9 had a ... strange attitude towards sex anyway; funny you mention the holosuite because there was that episode where Quark sold a holo-recreation of Kira (albeit with Quark's head) - I guess with the narrative 'out' where the purchaser was a scuzzy alien so we weren't meant to accept this as a normal activity. Then there was the 'comedy' episode where Quark has a sex change and ... holy sh*t, that was a whole different kettle of fish

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muckwarrior wrote: »

This is a Deep Space 9 thread, and I don't think anyone ever claimed that Bashir was the only one to ever act creepily on Star Trek.

A DS9 thread, in a Star Trek forum. Nobody ever mentioned there were hard limits per thread. No, nobody ever claimed Bashir was the only one, but he's a popular target. My point is, there are far worse examples of unacceptable sexual behaviour in Star Trek than his.

pixelburp wrote: »

Agree to disagree here because it feels like splitting hairs; all I'll say is beyond the relative popularity of a character - which surely is a factor - the context in which it was presented is an important part of the discussion: Barclay's transgressions were always presented in the narrative as egregious, whereas Bashir's felt like the script thought it playful and cheeky. The coding was as distasteful as the action itself, and certainly for me that's as big a problem.

I would have said Reg was a pretty popular non-main cast character in TNG. Most fans of the show would be aware of him, and heck, he arguably got more development than La Forge did.

Re the context, that's true, if we're to step outside of the show and look inwards from a writing perspective, I'd agree; purposely writing Bashir to act the way he did, and expect it to come across as cheeky etc, that may not have been the best idea. That said, 1993 is a loooong way back from 2019, as such it tends not to bother me as much and I give it some leeway.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

Agree to disagree here because it feels like splitting hairs; all I'll say is beyond the relative popularity of a character - which surely is a factor - the context in which it was presented is an important part of the discussion: Barclay's transgressions were always presented in the narrative as egregious, whereas Bashir's felt like the script thought it playful and cheeky. The coding was as distasteful as the action itself, and certainly for me that's as big a problem.

But hey, the only consistent thing about Treks attitudes towards sex was that it was thoroughly inconsistent IMO. DS9 felt like the first iteration to at least acknowledge the messiness of romantic relationships, without or without sex. TNG always felt so cold and like its characters were eunuchs.

Bashir's leeriness wasn't the only time DS9 had a ... strange attitude towards sex anyway; funny you mention the holosuite because there was that episode where Quark sold a holo-recreation of Kira (albeit with Quark's head) - I guess with the narrative 'out' where the purchaser was a scuzzy alien so we weren't meant to accept this as a normal activity. Then there was the 'comedy' episode where Quark has a sex change and ... holy sh*t, that was a whole different kettle of fish

And the fact that Troi was smirking at all the other's portrayals, and saying how it was a therapy for Barkley, right up to the point of seeing her own. At which Riker gets to put the boot in

Also it was always shown (even in a light hearted way) that Barkley needed help, and got it, from the crew and Troi herself.

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Deleted User wrote: »

And the fact that Troi was smirking at all the other's portrayals, and saying how it was a therapy for Barkley, right up to the point of seeing her own. At which Riker gets to put the boot in

Also it was always shown (even in a light hearted way) that Barkley needed help, and got it, from the crew and Troi herself.

Those scenes you're referring to are presented in a very theatric way though. I feel the scenes where he recreates Troi in her office, who is there to counsel him and eventually to have sex with him...those scenes are quite dark. I think only someone who worked on the Enterprise-D could forgive him for that

It was also shown later in DS9 that Jadzia enjoyed Bashir's attention, so both shows tried to contextualize the writing as acceptable.

_Kaiser_

** Reads last 20-ish posts**

Eh guys.. this series is 20 years old! Made in a time before metoo and other such movements. Ye need to stop trying to apply "modern" :rolleyes: standards and interpretations to it and look at it in the context and time it was made.

pixelburp

It's 1993, not the Renaissance; 2 years after the controversy of Anita Hill in American politics at that, so don't accept any glib excuse that sexual harassment wasn't something that existed in the zeitgeist of US / western culture. It was relevant then, it's relevant now.

Bashir was a creep in season 1. More specifically, the writers made a bags of the 'romantic gesture' tropes, at best laying them on too thick and clumsily, and the fact it was quickly mothballed probably spoke to the writers realising this themselves.