Football Championship Restructuring Idea

keane2097

Jayop wrote: »

I thought leitrim were one of the handful with no provincial.

1994

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHsZOEjXfVE

Fr Tod Umptious

Fermanagh and Wicklow are the only counties without provincial championships

aidan24326

Jayop wrote: »

I thought leitrim were one of the handful with no provincial.

As Keane2097 said, they won it 1994 and had won a Connacht Title already in the 1920s also.

Their 1994 win was particularly noteworthy as they had to beat all 3 of Roscommon, Galway (after a replay) and Mayo to achieve it.

OldMrBrennan83

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OldMrBrennan83

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aidan24326

Patww79 wrote: »

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Yes, Declan Darcy. Very good footballer, he played with Dublin in the later years of his career after he moved back there but Leitrim got his best years.

OldMrBrennan83

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Jayop

aidan24326 wrote: »

As Keane2097 said, they won it 1994 and had won a Connacht Title already in the 1920s also.

Their 1994 win was particularly noteworthy as they had to beat all 3 of Roscommon, Galway (after a replay) and Mayo to achieve it.

Cheers lads, I stand very corrected. That's a quare achievement for them beating the 3 big dogs.

Stoner

Patww79 wrote:

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There were two Dublin lads on that team, can't remember the other lad's name although he'd moved there when he was young enough.
Darcy won an all-star, their first I think.
Darcy and Gavin looked after the Dublin u21s together as a transition from senior football to management.

The Lost Sheep

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Agreed.
Starting teams in one competition and finishing them in another is BS.

Either you start and finish in A or you start and finish in B.

don't see teams starting in one competition and finishing in another as being bulls***
You see it regularly in European soccer/rugby.
Most counties want to play the big boys and have a shot at winning sam however unlikely that is. That shot shouldn't be removed but a level needs to be found for these counties to improve and get more games and possibly win silverware...

Fr Tod Umptious

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

don't see teams starting in one competition and finishing in another as being bulls***
You see it regularly in European soccer/rugby.
Most counties want to play the big boys and have a shot at winning sam however unlikely that is. That shot shouldn't be removed but a level needs to be found for these counties to improve and get more games and possibly win silverware...

You can't compare it to professional sports.

In rugby and soccer its their job to compete in whatever competition they find themselves in.

In the GAA it not easy to motivate guys to go back and play in a lesser competition when there are other things to focus on, including their club commitments

The Lost Sheep

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You can't compare it to professional sports.

In rugby and soccer its their job to compete in whatever competition they find themselves in.

In the GAA it not easy to motivate guys to go back and play in a lesser competition when there are other things to focus on, including their club commitments

You can. That's the fault of the GAA that you cant motivate teams to play on if knocked out of one competition to be able to play and win another. Its the same with club competitions.

threeball

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You can. That's the fault of the GAA that you cant motivate teams to play on if knocked out of one competition to be able to play and win another. Its the same with club competitions.

I agree. Give them something that's worth playing for and they will.
I hate these convoluted competitions people try to come up with hoping that they might pass congress. None will.
Croke Park need to take the bull by the horns and create competitions that people and media can invest in. 3 leagues with 11 games for each team. Anyone in the top two tiers gets to play in the AI series the following year, straight knock out. Club games played through the county season with all players available. Start the season in march and have county wrapped by early September and club by October at worst.
Weaker teams get games to improve, panels get used, everyone gets a calender, Gaa increase revenues and supporters get a team to follow

Fr Tod Umptious

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You can. That's the fault of the GAA that you cant motivate teams to play on if knocked out of one competition to be able to play and win another. Its the same with club competitions.

They have tried B championships for decades now, I believe Leitrim own one in the early '90s, and The likes for Clare won the Tommy Murphy cup in the '00s.

But they have never caught on, and I don't think any competition that the losers go into a lesser competition will ever catch on.

Create three or four divisions like they have done in hurling and see how it works.

Well done to Meath for winning the Christy Ring and getting into the Leinster championship.

Well done to Mayo for winning the Nicky Rackard and getting into the Christy Ring.

Something similar may work in football, but a system where a team ends up on a secondary competition after being knocked out of the primary one will not work and has never worked.

threeball

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

They have tried B championships for decades now, I believe Leitrim own one in the early '90s, and The likes for Clare won the Tommy Murphy cup in the '00s.

But they have never caught on, and I don't think any competition that the losers go into a lesser competition will ever catch on.

Create three or four divisions like they have done in hurling and see how it works.

Well done to Meath for winning the Christy Ring and getting into the Leinster championship.

Well done to Mayo for winning the Nicky Rackard and getting into the Christy Ring.

Something similar may work in football, but a system where a team ends up on a secondary competition after being knocked out of the primary one will not work and has never worked.

I agree. B championships are inherently flawed as is the total obsession with championship in the first place. Raising the status of the league and earning your right to play championship means teams improve and the playing field is a little more level. It will also lead to teams coming out of their shell as they won't base their season round 2 games which deem it a success or failure

Xenophile

No need to change anything about the football championship. The qualifiers have just thrown up Clare and Tipperary as two of the last eight in their history.

The structure is fine, up to now the GAA hierarchy seemed to be reacting to GAA writers who were short of copy.

Critics of the current system should have waited until the the current qualifiers games were completed.

Leave the current system in place, every system is bound to throw up some shortcomings.

Fr Tod Umptious

Xenophile wrote: »

No need to change anything about the football championship. The qualifiers have just thrown up Clare and Tipperary as two of the last eight in their history.

The structure is fine, up to now the GAA hierarchy seemed to be reacting to GAA writers who were short of copy.

Critics of the current system should have waited until the the current qualifiers games were completed.

Leave the current system in place, every system is bound to throw up some shortcomings.

I totally agree that the back door has been a success because of days like yesterday.

Change to the championship needs to be small not nuclear.

OldMrBrennan83

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BonnieSituation

Xenophile wrote: »

No need to change anything about the football championship. The qualifiers have just thrown up Clare and Tipperary as two of the last eight in their history.

The structure is fine, up to now the GAA hierarchy seemed to be reacting to GAA writers who were short of copy.

Critics of the current system should have waited until the the current qualifiers games were completed.

Leave the current system in place, every system is bound to throw up some shortcomings.

As long as the provincials are used as entry points into the AI then it needs to change. And that's it.

To say that Munster and Connacht (and to a lesser extent Leinster) deserve to stay is bordering on madness.

The Lost Sheep

Xenophile wrote: »

No need to change anything about the football championship. The qualifiers have just thrown up Clare and Tipperary as two of the last eight in their history.

The structure is fine, up to now the GAA hierarchy seemed to be reacting to GAA writers who were short of copy.

Critics of the current system should have waited until the the current qualifiers games were completed.

Leave the current system in place, every system is bound to throw up some shortcomings.

Just because Tipp have got to last 4 and Clare to last 8 doesnt jusify keeping the existing structure.
There has been many critics of the current system for years and while of course every system will have shortcomings. We need better than what has been proposed by GAA...

Patww79 wrote: »

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Rotating provinces and just going to 4 groups of 8 and then having nothing new isnt good enough of a change. It doesnt do anything for the weaker counties and still has big issues with top heavy provinces full of division 1 sides and provinces with 1/2 strong sides far ahead of the rest.

OldMrBrennan83

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The Lost Sheep

Patww79 wrote: »

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Does it? But when the championship format is completely flawed your argument makes no sense.
In most other sports you don't have the situation where based on a draw you can have teams entering all Ireland at completely different stages and nowhere based on ability.

OldMrBrennan83

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The Lost Sheep

Patww79 wrote: »

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But rearranging to 4 groups of 8 and no change to the format is just so conservative and does not add to the championship. You still have too many of the same issues that always crop up year in year out with the current format.

OldMrBrennan83

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recylingbin

Scrap the league. Play provincial championships in it's stead.
Open draw for all Ireland. No seeding. No back door
Simples

The Lost Sheep

recylingbin wrote: »

Scrap the league. Play provincial championships in it's stead.
Open draw for all Ireland. No seeding. No back door
Simples

That benefits no-one. Why is less games and therefore less media coverage and less money/income good for the GAA?

Mehapoy

So 16 teams get 2 games in the whole year? If you've no good ideas dont bother like!

OldMrBrennan83

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The Lost Sheep

Patww79 wrote: »

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How can teams ever develop without more games. Most need more games in the championship if they are to ever progress and limiting 16 counties to just 2 games and several more to 3 in their main competition of the year is bonkers

OldMrBrennan83

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Jayop

Patww79 wrote: »

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He was replying to someone saying scrap the league.

Banner2theend

https://www.the42.ie/gaa-fixture-taskforce-report-4918236-Dec2019/

grbear

Curious to see the shape of the restructured provinces. The simplest way would seem to be:

Longford and Westmeath to Connacht (assuming London stay in championship).

3 out of Laois, Carlow, Wexford and Offaly to Munster.

Cavan to Leinster.


Not sure if thats a big improvement beyond calendar management.

Hawkeye9212

grbear wrote: »

Curious to see the shape of the restructured provinces. The simplest way would seem to be:

Longford and Westmeath to Connacht (assuming London stay in championship).

3 out of Laois, Carlow, Wexford and Offaly to Munster.

Cavan to Leinster.


Not sure if thats a big improvement beyond calendar management.

It's going to be based on League performance. Moving the lowest ranked team in Ulster to Connacht is no improvement. They are just adding another minnow for the big three to give a beating to.

I don't like either format but I'll take a meaningful League over rejigged provinces.

Let's assume the League proposal was held this year.

Derry, Westmeath, Fermanagh, and Kildare would be in the preliminary QFs.

Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone, Dublin, Donegal, and Meath would join the two PQF winners in the QFs.

Bonniedog

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That benefits no-one. Why is less games and therefore less media coverage and less money/income good for the GAA?

Exactly.

What other sports organisation seems obsessed with reducing its marquee competitions to a minimum?

It was pure luck this year that the football ran into media time that would have been dominated by rugby and English soccer.

Club games on TV prove there is appetite for GAA all year around which even RTE have copped on to by showing some of them. League should be similarly promoted. It gets crowds way bigger than either of the above and is treated almost as a non event.

grbear

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

It's going to be based on League performance. Moving the lowest ranked team in Ulster to Connacht is no improvement. They are just adding another minnow for the big three to give a beating to.

I don't like either format but I'll take a meaningful League over rejigged provinces.

Let's assume the League proposal was held this year.

Derry, Westmeath, Fermanagh, and Kildare would be in the preliminary QFs.

Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone, Dublin, Donegal, and Meath would join the two PQF winners in the QFs.

Yeah, I saw the Examiners summary of the proposals after I posted which made the structure of rejigged provinces a bit clearer. It's a bit wishy washy and based on the league as is you'd be looking at possibly Antrim and Wexford/Carlow joining Connacht which would be a pure mess. A permanent restructure would be politically more toxic in the short term but probably fairer for the Counties likely to be shunted around at the bottom end.


I can't see anything but the tweaked status quo passing to be honest.

PTH2009

They should just get rid of the provincials or run them off as a separate competition (maybe pre season instead of those things there now) and have the leagues/Championships interact

GAA are so farcical sometimes and other big sporting organisations must be laughing there heads off (well not the FAI with there current mess)

BonnieSituation

PTH2009 wrote: »

They should just get rid of the provincials or run them off as a separate competition (maybe pre season instead of those things there now) and have the leagues/Championships interact

GAA are so farcical sometimes and other big sporting organisations must be laughing there heads off (well not the FAI with there current mess)

This has always been my wish.

Provincials become the pre-league tournaments.
Leave the league as it is because it's the best competition by far.
Have 8 groups of 4 seeded on final league placings.

Draw groups on a seeded basis

Top 2 through to 2nd Round and so on...

Keep it as an open draw from the 2nd round on with the only proviso for the second round being that you can't play someone that was in your group.

It's simple. Done. And unlikely as hell!

PTH2009

BonnieSituation wrote: »

This has always been my wish.

Provincials become the pre-league tournaments.
Leave the league as it is because it's the best competition by far.
Have 8 groups of 4 seeded on final league placings.

Draw groups on a seeded basis

Top 2 through to 2nd Round and so on...

Keep it as an open draw from the 2nd round on with the only proviso for the second round being that you can't play someone that was in your group.

It's simple. Done. And unlikely as hell!

The council of elders dont buy into that sensible nonsense

Hawkeye9212

grbear wrote: »

Yeah, I saw the Examiners summary of the proposals after I posted which made the structure of rejigged provinces a bit clearer. It's a bit wishy washy and based on the league as is you'd be looking at possibly Antrim and Wexford/Carlow joining Connacht which would be a pure mess. A permanent restructure would be politically more toxic in the short term but probably fairer for the Counties likely to be shunted around at the bottom end.


I can't see anything but the tweaked status quo passing to be honest.

The League format has issues as well. Why should a Div 4 side get a preference over teams ranked above them in the All-Ireland series. The stronger teams will say that they should improve and get promoted if they want be in the All-Ireland.

The GAA don't want to scrap the Provincials at senior level so I would do the following.

I would take one of the proposed formats for the Provincial championships. For example, the format for Option 2. Connacht and Munster adopt a league format. Ulster and Leinster have 10 teams split into 2 groups of 5. One team from Leinster moves to Ulster. The minimum number of games for each team is four or five.

They could ditch the All-Ireland Qualifiers and copy the format for the club championship. Only the four provincial champions qualify for the All-Ireland series. That would be Donegal, Dublin, Roscommon, and Kerry. The knockout stage could be expanded to include the four highest ranked teams in the League who haven't won their provincial championship. That brings in Tyrone, Galway, Monaghan, and Mayo.

The QFs would look like this:
Donegal v Galway
Dublin v Mayo
Roscommon v Monaghan
Kerry v Tyrone

The Super 8s could also be retained at this stage.

The other option proposed by the GAA has 4 provinces with 8 teams each. This format allows for a backdoor qualifier system. The 8 losers at the semi-final stage in each province play in Round 1. The four winners go into Round 2 with the four provincial losers and so on.

There also need to scrap this meaningless Tier 2 championship. It no longer has a pathway into the All-Ireland series under both proposed formats.

BonnieSituation

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

The League format has issues as well. Why should a Div 4 side get a preference over teams ranked above them in the All-Ireland series. The stronger teams will say that they should improve and get promoted if they want be in the All-Ireland.

The GAA don't want to scrap the Provincials at senior level so I would do the following.

I would take one of the proposed formats for the Provincial championships. For example, the format for Option 2. Connacht and Munster adopt a league format. Ulster and Leinster have 10 teams split into 2 groups of 5. One team from Leinster moves to Ulster. The minimum number of games for each team is four or five.

They could ditch the All-Ireland Qualifiers and copy the format for the club championship. Only the four provincial champions qualify for the All-Ireland series. That would be Donegal, Dublin, Roscommon, and Kerry. The knockout stage could be expanded to include the four highest ranked teams in the League who haven't won their provincial championship. That brings in Tyrone, Galway, Monaghan, and Mayo.

The QFs would look like this:
Donegal v Galway
Dublin v Mayo
Roscommon v Monaghan
Kerry v Tyrone

The Super 8s could also be retained at this stage.

The other option proposed by the GAA has 4 provinces with 8 teams each. This format allows for a backdoor qualifier system. The 8 losers at the semi-final stage in each province play in Round 1. The four winners go into Round 2 with the four provincial losers and so on.

There also need to scrap this meaningless Tier 2 championship. It no longer has a pathway into the All-Ireland series under both proposed formats.

Any chance it could be more convoluted? That's horrible.

Hawkeye9212

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Any chance it could be more convoluted? That's horrible.

Blame the Fixtures Review for coming up with convoluted proposals.

Coillte_Bhoy

Two formats have been presented for the All-Ireland senior football championship with both catering for a two-tier structure.

1. Four provincial competitions with eight teams in each and split into two groups of four. Played in round-robin format, league positions in groups to determine championship progress.

2. Football league repositioned to summer months as basis for championship and provincial competitions to be played in February or March period. League determines pathway for counties to qualify for All-Ireland SFC quarter-finals.

Can someone explain this to me please?

Hawkeye9212

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Can someone explain this to me please?

Top 4 in Div 1 and top 2 in Div 2 go into the quarter-finals.

The 1st placed teams in Divisions 3 and 4 go into the preliminary QF along with the third and fourth placed teams in Div 2.

For example:

PQF

Derry v Kildare
Westmeath v Fermanagh

QF

Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone, Dublin, Donegal, Meath, Derry/Kildare, and Westmeath/Fermanagh.

Hawkeye9212

I would go with the format proposed by Kieran Donaghy if they want a tiered championship. Reduce the League to two divisions split into to two pools of 8.

The first placed teams in the Division 2 pools are promoted to Division 1. The 2nd and/or third placed teams go into the play-offs for a third promotion spot.

The first placed teams in the Division 1 pools go into the All-Ireland semi-finals. The 2nd and 3rd placed teams go into the quarter-finals. The bottom two teams in each pool are relegated to Division 2. The 7th placed teams go into a relegation final for the third relegation spot.

Coillte_Bhoy

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

Top 4 in Div 1 and top 2 in Div 2 go into the quarter-finals.

The 1st placed teams in Divisions 3 and 4 go into the preliminary QF along with the third and fourth placed teams in Div 2.

For example:

PQF

Derry v Kildare
Westmeath v Fermanagh

QF

Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone, Dublin, Donegal, Meath, Derry/Kildare, and Westmeath/Fermanagh.

Oh right, so prov cships have no path to the AI series? Unfortunately that aint happening but i like the proposal

Hawkeye9212

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Oh right, so prov cships have no path to the AI series? Unfortunately that aint happening but i like the proposal

The Provincials aren't going anywhere. I don't think that moving Louth into Ulster will be too controversial. The county has strong links with its neighbours in Ulster. The provinces should adopt a round-robin format. Every county has at least 4 or 5 games against a mix of opposition.

Top two teams in Connacht and Munster contest their provincial final. Top 2 teams in Ulster and Leinster go into their provincial semi-finals. The provincial champions go into the All-Ireland semi-finals.

ArnoldJRimmer

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

The Provincials aren't going anywhere. I don't think that moving Louth into Ulster will be too controversial. The county has strong links with its neighbours in Ulster. The provinces should adopt a round-robin format. Every county has at least 4 or 5 games against a mix of opposition.

Top two teams in Connacht and Munster contest their provincial final. Top 2 teams in Ulster and Leinster go into their provincial semi-finals. The provincial champions go into the All-Ireland semi-finals.

Adopting a format whereby there are group stages in the provincials won't solve the GAA's biggest problem right now, which is Dublins dominance. The Leinster championship would still be as farcical as it is today. Munster is not too far behind, I don't see anyone beating Kerry for the next number of years.

Jim McGuinness's proposal from a few years ago remains the best in my opinion. Similar to option 2 in that article, except the provincial winners are guaranteed top tier, then it goes by league placings. Its usually the top teams that win them, but it gives every team a chance to play in the top tier competition in that year

Hawkeye9212

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

Adopting a format whereby there are group stages in the provincials won't solve the GAA's biggest problem right now, which is Dublins dominance. The Leinster championship would still be as farcical as it is today. Munster is not too far behind, I don't see anyone beating Kerry for the next number of years.

Jim McGuinness's proposal from a few years ago remains the best in my opinion. Similar to option 2 in that article, except the provincial winners are guaranteed top tier, then it goes by league placings. Its usually the top teams that win them, but it gives every team a chance to play in the top tier competition in that year

No format can solve the problem Dublin's dominance.