Future of Saorview now that Virgin owns TV3 & UTV Ireland

bk

I thought it is worth starting a thread to discuss the future of Saorview and Free To Air TV now that Virgin Media owns or will soon own, TV3, 3e and UTV Ireland.

While I don't see Virgin pulling any of these channels off Saorview, I also don't see them doing anything to help promote and develop Saorview as an alternative to their own pay TV platform. Why would do?

- I suspect they will continue to drag their feet on TV3 and the other channels go HD.

- I suspect zero chance of +1 or any other channels coming to Saorview from them.

- I suspect they will be slow to allow 7 day catch up, streaming or on demand player services on Saorview, thus pretty much making Saorview Connect irrelevant.

To be honest this completely throws the future of Saorview in jeopardy IMO.

I think RTE will have to get their finger out now and perhaps look at producing their own combined Saorview + FTA sat box with 7 day EPG.

The Cush

bk wrote: »

To be honest this completely throws the future of Saorview in jeopardy IMO.

I think RTE will have to get their finger out now and perhaps look at producing their own combined Saorview + FTA sat box with 7 day EPG.

Saorview is here to stay as a basic terrestrial TV service at least, in fact there are DTT networks around Europe, in countries of similar size that have even less FTA channels, some with an extra subscription channel package other with just the basic free channels.

As regards a new combi receiver Saorview Connect will be it IMO, it will be interesting to see how the HbbTV service develops in the years ahead when we all have access to descent broadband. Won't judge it yet, at least until we see the details.

I agree with your other points +1s, catch-up, HD, no incentive for them to offer enhanced features in competition with their own service.

It would be interesting if Virgin offered a DTT-lite subscription service on the spare muxes for those not wanting or unable to receive Sky/Virgin cable services. There were over 20,000 subscribers to the MMDS service when it shutdown, many without even a basic PVR.

STB.

bk wrote: »

I thought it is worth starting a thread to discuss the future of Saorview and Free To Air TV now that Virgin Media owns or will soon own, TV3, 3e and UTV Ireland.

While I don't see Virgin pulling any of these channels off Saorview, I also don't see them doing anything to help promote and develop Saorview as an alternative to their own pay TV platform. Why would do?

- I suspect they will continue to drag their feet on TV3 and the other channels go HD.

- I suspect zero chance of +1 or any other channels coming to Saorview from them.

- I suspect they will be slow to allow 7 day catch up, streaming or on demand player services on Saorview, thus pretty much making Saorview Connect irrelevant.

To be honest this completely throws the future of Saorview in jeopardy IMO.

I think RTE will have to get their finger out now and perhaps look at producing their own combined Saorview + FTA sat box with 7 day EPG.

How did this get by the competition authority for a start.

They are only licensed as Irish Broadcasters if they are on the FTA platform.

More likely that it will be like 3 TV3's all whinging about why they don't have access to the licence fee.

political analyst

STB. wrote: »

How did this get by the competition authority for a start.

It hasn't got as far as the competition authority yet.

former total

STB. wrote: »

How did this get by the competition authority for a start.

They are only licensed as Irish Broadcasters if they are on the FTA platform.

More likely that it will be like 3 TV3's all whinging about why they don't have access to the licence fee.

The Competition Authority won't object. The combined market share of all three channels is still very low so no danger of market distortion.

bk

former total wrote: »

The Competition Authority won't object. The combined market share of all three channels is still very low so no danger of market distortion.

Well clearly there will be market distortion if saorview is blocked from improving and expanding. I'd like to see the regulators make free HD, 7 day catchup, streaming and on demand players all pre-requistes to agreeing to the purchase of UTVi.

former total

bk wrote: »

Well clearly there will be market distortion if saorview is blocked from improving and expanding. I'd like to see the regulators make free HD, 7 day catchup, streaming and on demand players all pre-requistes to agreeing to the purchase of UTVi.

You can argue that all those things should be standard but that's not really anything to do with the Competition Authority.

This takeover is probably good news for Saorview because UTV Ireland was on borrowed time.

Dave..M

former total wrote: »

You can argue that all those things should be standard but that's not really anything to do with the Competition Authority.

This takeover is probably good news for Saorview because UTV Ireland was on borrowed time.

I don't know about that, i wonder does anyone that uses the UK FTA Satellite & Saorview really watch much on TV 3 fuzz (or TG4 or UTVI for that matter) with most of that content in HD on the main UK channels. I viewed the prospect of a resurgent UTVI under the ITV banner really shaking things up on Saorview with decent content & player and possibly even HD putting it up to RTE but that's dead as far as I can see, I only really watch Irish sport on Saorview, everything else I watch on Freesat boxes (or FTA via an AA2) and UK OTT services (mostly the latter these days tbh) so personally I don't see how this deal in any way enhances Saorview as a platform. Will happily stand corrected of course if TV3 up their game, I just don't see it though.

bk

former total wrote: »

You can argue that all those things should be standard but that's not really anything to do with the Competition Authority.

This has everything to do with the competition authority!

Virgin's purchase of these channels could allow them to severely weaken Saorview while improving their own platform.

Using ownership of one product to weaken a competitor is pretty much the definition of what competition authorities do. See how in the UK, the competition authority required Sky to sell Sky sports channels to other companies, otherwise it would give Sky TV platform an unfair advantage.

Imagine what would happen to Saorview if Virgin decided to pull TV3, 3e and UTVi off it!

The competition regulators and Comreg absolutely need to put safe guards in place.

bk

Dave..M wrote: »

i wonder does anyone that uses the UK FTA Satellite & Saorview really watch much on TV 3 fuzz (or TG4 or UTVI for that matter)

I agree, and I can just see the wall to wall Virgin Media ads on these channels on Saorview now, promoting TV3 HD on Virgin Media.

There is no way at all that this is good for Saorview, quite the opposite.

MBSnr

Dave..M wrote: »

I don't know about that, i wonder does anyone that uses the UK FTA Satellite & Saorview really watch much on TV 3 fuzz (or TG4 or UTVI for that matter) with most of that content in HD on the main UK channels.

Exactly. Apart from some sport on RTE2 and the odd bit of GAA/rugby on TG4 the Walker box never gets used. The Freesat box does though...

former total

bk wrote: »

This has everything to do with the competition authority!.

No, it doesn't. You're confusing your regulators. See below.

bk wrote: »

Virgin's purchase of these channels could allow them to severely weaken Saorview while improving their own platform.

Using ownership of one product to weaken a competitor is pretty much the definition of what competition authorities do. See how in the UK, the competition authority required Sky to sell Sky sports channels to other companies, otherwise it would give Sky TV platform an unfair advantage.

Imagine what would happen to Saorview if Virgin decided to pull TV3, 3e and UTVi off it!

The competition regulators and Comreg absolutely need to put safe guards in place.

Your analogy of Sky Sports is not relevant because they were utterly dominant in the sports market, TV3/UTV will not be dominant in anything.

However, it was Ofcom who made them sell on their packages, not the UK competition authority.

Likewise here, our Competition Authority will look at the combined market share of the Tv3/UTVi merger (15-20% maybe?) and they won't care because RTE is still very much the dominant player.

The BAI might have some comments alright. As I understand it, Virgin won't be able to pull their channels from Saorview because they are designated public service broadcasters so are obliged to leave them there.

former total

bk wrote: »

I agree, and I can just see the wall to wall Virgin Media ads on these channels on Saorview now, promoting TV3 HD on Virgin Media.

Possibly, but if they do that, they're forgoing ad revenue from other sources so it will limit itself naturally.

bk wrote: »

There is no way at all that this is good for Saorview, quite the opposite.

UTV Ireland has been a spectacular failure. It is bleeding cash and has a pathetic audience. At this point, the choice is either a UTV owned by TV3 or no UTV at all.

This sale at least guarantees that UTV will remain on Saorview. Without the takeover, that is very unlikely. So is SD UTV better than no UTV? I think so.

former total

former total wrote: »

This sale at least guarantees that UTV will remain on Saorview. Without the takeover, that is very unlikely. So is SD UTV better than no UTV? I think so.

I don't think it does. It's quite likely that VM will just merge some ITV content into TV3 and close UTV down. So we may not have it anyway.

marno21

I can see UTV Ireland being shut down. It has terrible viewing figures & no identity, it's basically TV3's shows with more & more repeats added in.

To be honest, if Virgin don't want to put TV3 HD on Saorview that's fine, myself and likely plenty of others with combi boxes will continue to watch sports etc. on BBC/ITV in much better quality than TV3's blurfest. It's a pity because TV3 HD on Sky is actually decent.

gordongekko

There is always the chance that eir will launch a sports channel on saorview like bt have done in the uk.

Vic_08

former total wrote: »

This sale at least guarantees that UTV will remain on Saorview. Without the takeover, that is very unlikely. So is SD UTV better than no UTV? I think so.

It guarantees no such thing. UTV as a brand will be gone in ROI, ITV may or may not keep it for the NI channel but VM will need to put their own brand on the channel if they keep it at all.

The best ITV Studios content will likely transfer to TV3 and what was UTVI will become a second 3e style repeat+cheap content channel or will disappear.

There is no way they will keep producing 2 separate news programmes and any original programming they produce will go on TV3.

UTVI is going soon and for sourview or VM customers there will be no return of UTVNI/ITV.

Gonzo

I get the feeling the only real loser here is the viewer. TV3 will revert back to what it was before UTV Ireland, the only difference now is that Virgin Media viewers will no longer have any form of UTV or ITV and no channel to replace it.

When ITV bought over UTV Ireland in their deal I was initially excited thinking that ITV could rebrand and transform UTV Ireland into ITV Ireland and add the other ITV channels here just with Irish ads. Sadly this is not the case, ITV were happy to let UTV Ireland sit as it was until someone bought it off them for cheap. ITV obviously figured a rebranding exercise and buying of extra programming rights was just not worth it for such a small population, easier to just sell all the rights back to TV3.

kooga

gordongekko wrote: »

There is always the chance that eir will launch a sports channel on saorview like bt have done in the uk.

BT showcase has been pulled from freeview

Mickey Mike

Ideally the right thing for VM is to launch TV3 HD and pull 3e and UTV Ireland from Saorview, at least we'll have something decent to watch.

political analyst

bk wrote: »

I thought it is worth starting a thread to discuss the future of Saorview and Free To Air TV now that Virgin Media owns or will soon own, TV3, 3e and UTV Ireland.

While I don't see Virgin pulling any of these channels off Saorview, I also don't see them doing anything to help promote and develop Saorview as an alternative to their own pay TV platform. Why would do?

- I suspect they will continue to drag their feet on TV3 and the other channels go HD.

- I suspect zero chance of +1 or any other channels coming to Saorview from them.

- I suspect they will be slow to allow 7 day catch up, streaming or on demand player services on Saorview, thus pretty much making Saorview Connect irrelevant.

To be honest this completely throws the future of Saorview in jeopardy IMO.

I think RTE will have to get their finger out now and perhaps look at producing their own combined Saorview + FTA sat box with 7 day EPG.

Saorview ceasing to exist?!

Not a chance!

RTÉ will never let that happen.

FRIENDO

kooga wrote:

BT showcase has been pulled from freeview

They are still on freeview channel 59 showing the same old BT preview stuff.

Mickey Mike

political analyst wrote: »

Saorview ceasing to exist?!

Not a chance!

RTÉ will never let that happen.

I agree, even if it meant closing down mux2. If the worse comes to the worst there is Saorsat. We'll all be out buying new dishes.

Sam Russell

Saorview will always exist if RTE exists.

The problem with Saorview is that most employees of RTE, and most Dublin based journos do not watch it - they get their TV from Sky, Virgin, or some other pay TV supplier. Always has been so and probably always will. How else can you explain Sean O'Rouke never having heard of RTE News Now on the close down of analogue - and him working for the RTE News team.

Mickey Mike

Sam Russell wrote: »

Saorview will always exist if RTE exists.

The problem with Saorview is that most employees of RTE, and most Dublin based journos do not watch it - they get their TV from Sky, Virgin, or some other pay TV supplier. Always has been so and probably always will. How else can you explain Sean O'Rouke never having heard of RTE News Now on the close down of analogue - and him working for the RTE News team.

My God, I do remember that, and that was shocking to say the least. You have a lot of well off people who have no problem paying out big money for subscription services or maybe they don't what platform there using. I don't know, its weird alright.

icdg

It's because the population of Dublin had four decades of pay TV being "normal", and it arrived a lot earlier, in the early 1970s. At one stage Cablelink had take up rates of over 80% of homes passed. People that only had free TV were a small minority.

I think it's a big distinguishment between Dublin and the rest of the country, when pay-TV wasn't available outside of the big towns until the 1990s and never had the near-universal take up it had (and to a lesser extent still has) in Dublin.

Sam Russell

icdg wrote: »

It's because the population of Dublin had four decades of pay TV being "normal", and it arrived a lot earlier, in the early 1970s. At one stage Cablelink had take up rates of over 80% of homes passed. People that only had free TV were a small minority.

I think it's a big distinguishment between Dublin and the rest of the country, when pay-TV wasn't available outside of the big towns until the 1990s and never had the near-universal take up it had (and to a lesser extent still has) in Dublin.

That is the point I am making.

Workers at RTE - journalists, producers, presenters, managers, etc. were totally unaware (and still are) that a significant majority of their viewers did not have pay TV, and FTA TV was their norm. As a consequence, they lived in a different world.

The same applies to the TDs and other politicians when it comes to OTV. 'We wont pay - RTE must do it for free!' and other such nonsense.

former total

RTE is the problem?

RTE is the only channel putting out Saorview in HD, they have four TV channels and eight or nine radio stations. They're the only thing keeping Saorview remotely viable.

The "problem" with Saorview is that the audience is very low and it's just not attractive to private operators.

Harking back to the 1980s is grand but the reality is that everyone in Ireland has access to pay TV now, most have 3 or 4 different options, and the vast majority make use of that access.

So, if you have a small market like Ireland, and you then take an even smaller fraction of that market, you're talking about a tiny commercial opportunity. Return on investment is unlikely.

That is why TV3 and UTV aren't investing in Saorview. Nothing to do with RTE, or the minister, or Comreg. It's cold, hard, cash.

Gonzo

lack of choice on Saorview will mean it will never really be successful. If Saorview carried the UK terrestrial channels and a few pay tv channels it might have been a bigger player in the market.

Sam Russell

There is nothing to stop Saorview being specified as 720 by 576 i as the minimum resolution. If that was done, fuzzy vision would be banished. Costs would not change much because there is plenty of capacity currently (excess is burnt off) and all bills would be raised by the same amount (actually there would be little rise since the costs are shared equally depending on bandwidth).

That could be done now, either at the behest of Conreg, BAI, or the Minister. It is obvious that none of those three actually care.

icdg

There's one other thing that needs to be mentioned here.

From the outset, DTT was viewed by the Govenrment as an opportunity to earn some cash. Initially that was through a sale of part or all of the transmission network, when that didn't fly (or wasn't politically palpable), it was through the sale of the multiplex licences.

Saorview was a last resort when all of that failed (including a competition where, in an extraordinary set of circumstances, all three entrants were offered the licence and all three turned it down), and the Government was faced with an EU deadline for DSO. It was the product of circumstances rather than planning, and was never meant to be anything more than a quick and dirty replacement for analogue terrestrial. Even now I'm sure there are some in Govenrment who harbour hopes that they might sell that commercial DTT licence at some point, though it will almost certainly never happen now.