Stop lines at junctions

degsie

I've always thought that a stop line at a junction if the FIRST solid line you meet and you should always stop behind this line. Increasingly I see drivers roll up to the 'pedestrian crossing' lines and ignore all other lines including the shaded cyclists lines. Is this just ignorance or is it generally accepted to ignore the first solid line?

bazz26

Just stupid drivers being typically stupid. See plenty of drivers stop their vehicles in the bicycle zone ahead of the white stop line too as if the different colour tarmac and painting of a bicycle in the centre are just there for decoration or fun.

Alanstrainor

I have also started noticing people entering the right turn box at a junction when lights are red. The mind really boggles.

biko

It's not an accepted rule but not generally enforced and so people think they can get away with it. Or maybe they just have difficulties with some of the rules of the road.

ofcork

There is one on patrick st cork where drivers go past the stop line and stop at the brick paving and half block traffic from academy st.

I see people stopping well after the stop line at the riverside estate in Galway - well past the induction loop that triggers the lights.
They then sit there waiting until someone comes up behind them to trigger the lights.

MJohnston

Please don't do this if you're a driver. As a cyclist, you need that space to be in front of the vehicles without blocking the pedestrian crossing - waiting back in between the traffic is usually way more dangerous because of visibility and lack of assigned cycle lanes. This happens to me a lot at the junction of Granby Row and Dorset Street, buses and taxis are the worst offenders for taking up that space.

Del2005

It's drivers not paying attention. On the N81 heading East at the Belgard Road junction they resurfaced the road and never replaced the shell. People are stopping meters from the stop line and give me dirty looks when I pull up to the stop line, like the look as you drive past in an out of service bus lane.

h3000

Every single advanced stop line for cyclist I see there's a car stopped in the red box. I think people actually don't know the difference.

coylemj

It's the typical Irish mentality - if there's a rule there to be broken, they will do it, even if there is no gain for the driver and it blocks the parallel lines showing where pedestrians should cross.

Then there is simple stupidity, like where someone (it's almost always a van) is turning left and they come to a stop so far across the stop line that they can't see the filter light on their left so the guy behind has to honk them when the left arrow comes on. Then they look over at the traffic lights in the middle of the junction which are still showing red and they refuse to budge until that light goes green.

wonski

coylemj wrote: »

It's the typical Irish mentality

No. It isn't Irish mentality.

It is a worldwide mentality.

RandomAccess

Maybe they identify as cyclists ;-)

shietpilot

Because being 2 metres ahead makes them quicker. I love it when there are 2 lanes, they are in the right lane and they drive onto the cyclist box and I still end up being quicker in the left lane without breaking speed limits even though I didn't enter the box. Completely pointless really :P

RustyNut

RandomAccess

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I have also started noticing people entering the right turn box at a junction when lights are red. The mind really boggles.

I see this all the time in Dublin where there is a green arrow for straight ahead. They enter the box, then make a right or left turn, and generally they drive through a group of pedestrians who are crossing with a green man!!

Idiots!
Might see if I can get a Garda to hang out at the spot.

tossy

We are the worst drivers in Europe everyday i see things that only re affirm this for me. I've driven all over Europe and done all the 'crazies' Italy, Malta, Czech republic - we might not mirror does countries haphazard approach to roundabouts etc but for obeying general rules of the road, driver etiquette and education we are a 3rd world motoring country.

jimbis

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I have also started noticing people entering the right turn box at a junction when lights are red. The mind really boggles.

Or the total opposites that don't move up into that box when they have the green. Thus not triggering the sensor and left wondering why they did t get the filter light. :mad:

Marcusm

Or the other tossets who stop at the red lights and not at the stop line which might be before the junction.

degsie

Marcusm wrote: »

Or the other tossets who stop at the red lights and not at the stop line which might be before the junction.

Eh? Aren't all stop lines before the junction

Marcusm

degsie wrote: »

Eh? Aren't all stop lines before the junction

Sometimes you'll get offset junctions like this one; cars exiting Merton Drive are not controlled by the lights but 90% of those turning right into the yellow box will stop at the red light which relates to the stop line 50m behind.

degsie

Marcusm wrote: »

Sometimes you'll get offset junctions like this one; cars exiting Merton Drive are not controlled by the lights but 90% of those turning right into the yellow box will stop at the red light which relates to the stop line 50m behind.

I can't see they have much of a choice.

Marcusm

degsie wrote: »

I can't see they have much of a choice.

And that explains the problem with 99% of drivers - they are never controlled by that light, it relates to a stop line they never cross, they join the road through the yellow box and the stop line is before the box.

degsie

Marcusm wrote: »

And that explains the problem with 99% of drivers - they are never controlled by that light, it relates to a stop line they never cross, they join the road through the yellow box and the stop line is before the box.

But there appears to be a pedestrian crossing just after the yellow box.



So you are saying that if the car in this pic turns right, they should ignore the red light?

Marcusm

There is no stop line before the pedestrian crossing and there are plenty of sequences at that junction where the light is red but not to allow pedestrians to cross. I am saying that any driver stopping at the light in the box is blocking the highway and causing a hazard. The red light has nothing to do with anyone in the yellow box or beyond. Clearly they should give way to pedestrians in the road and should proceed with caution as the cars coming from Marlborough Riad may forget that they have to give way to vehicles already on Sandford Road however they got there. It is bizarre that an uncontrolled road discharges into a controlled junction, however, there is no authority to stop at the position of the red light. The car would simply be blocking the road.

GM228

Marcusm wrote: »

There is no stop line before the pedestrian crossing and there are plenty of sequences at that junction where the light is red but not to allow pedestrians to cross. I am saying that any driver stopping at the light in the box is blocking the highway and causing a hazard. The red light has nothing to do with anyone in the yellow box or beyond. Clearly they should give way to pedestrians in the road and should proceed with caution as the cars coming from Marlborough Riad may forget that they have to give way to vehicles already on Sandford Road however they got there. It is bizarre that an uncontrolled road discharges into a controlled junction, however, there is no authority to stop at the position of the red light. The car would simply be blocking the road.

There is no authority to pass the red light.

The car turning in the picture is required to stop at the red light, there does not need to be a stop line with a red light.

Legislation states you can't pass a red light unless there's a filter light giving authority to pass the red.

Marcusm

GM228 wrote: »

There is no authority to pass the red light.

The car turning in the picture is required to stop at the red light, there does not need to be a stop line with a red light.

Legislation states you can't pass a red light unless there's a filter light giving authority to pass the red.

There is a white line associated with the red light; however, as with many urban red lights, it is not coincident with it. Do you mean that junctions with red lights at both side of the junction, if one passes the first red light and coincident white line on green or amber but not passed the second one before it turns red, it is beholden upon you to stop in the middle of the junction impeding the flow of traffic? That is the situation here and the junction is further enhanced by the yellow box.

RustyNut

Marcusm wrote: »

There is no stop line before the pedestrian crossing and there are plenty of sequences at that junction where the light is red but not to allow pedestrians to cross. I am saying that any driver stopping at the light in the box is blocking the highway and causing a hazard. The red light has nothing to do with anyone in the yellow box or beyond. Clearly they should give way to pedestrians in the road and should proceed with caution as the cars coming from Marlborough Riad may forget that they have to give way to vehicles already on Sandford Road however they got there. It is bizarre that an uncontrolled road discharges into a controlled junction, however, there is no authority to stop at the position of the red light. The car would simply be blocking the road.

GM228 wrote: »

There is no authority to pass the red light.

The car turning in the picture is required to stop at the red light, there does not need to be a stop line with a red light.

Legislation states you can't pass a red light unless there's a filter light giving authority to pass the red.

Really it just another example of ****ty road infrastructure from the powers that be.

GM228

Marcusm wrote: »

There is a white line associated with the red light; however, as with many urban red lights, it is not coincident with it. Do you mean that junctions with red lights at both side of the junction, if one passes the first red light and coincident white line on green or amber but not passed the second one before it turns red, it is beholden upon you to stop in the middle of the junction impeding the flow of traffic? That is the situation here and the junction is further enhanced by the yellow box.

Even with a white line you still have no authority to pass the red light if your already past the white line.

Is there another red light before that one out of the picture?

Allinall

GM228 wrote: »

Even with a white line you still have no authority to pass the red light if your already past the white line.

Is there another red light before that one out of the picture?

I know that junction well.

The yellow box is there to facilitate cars coming out from Merton Drive and turning right.

They should stop in the box after turning if the lights on the main road are red. Granted only two or three cars can get through in each light change, but when they are there they are not holding up any traffic.

degsie

Marcusm wrote: »

There is no stop line before the pedestrian crossing

But there is a solid white line AT the pedestrian crossing. You should stop before this line if that light is red.

RustyNut

Allinall wrote: »

I know that junction well.

The yellow box is there to facilitate cars coming out from Merton Drive and turning right.

They should stop in the box after turning if the lights on the main road are red. Granted only two or three cars can get through in each light change, but when they are there they are not holding up any traffic.

But where does that leave the never enter a yellow box unless your exit is clear rule?

Allinall

RustyNut wrote: »

But where does that leave the never enter a yellow box unless your exit is clear rule?

There are lots of yellow boxes designed specifically to facilitate vehicles to get into a line of traffic where otherwise they would be relying on the goodwill of other drivers to let them in.

Pinch Flat

People in Ireland drive with a lot of impatience, like their life depends on it. I'll regularly see motorists in front of me stop half way across the pedestrian crossing, or plonk right in the bike zone, even at quite roads. Then edge forward while waiting for their light, sometimes protruding right into the junction.

A combination of laziness, impatience and just a basic lack of pride in their driving.

degsie

RustyNut wrote: »

But where does that leave the never enter a yellow box unless your exit is clear rule?

GM228

RustyNut wrote: »

But where does that leave the never enter a yellow box unless your exit is clear rule?

Yellow box rules don't apply to vehicles turning right, (or a vehicle exiting a bus lane).

RustyNut

GM228 wrote: »

Yellow box rules don't apply to vehicles turning right, (or a vehicle exiting a bus lane).

I think you have that wrong. You can enter a box if you intend to turn right not after you turn right.

degsie

Berated a guy today who was straddled across the pedestrian lines at a set of lights. He didn't have a clue what I was on about when I mentioned the stop line. Unreal!

RustyNut

degsie wrote: »

Maybe you might elaborate on the face palm.

PirateShampoo

On the Walkinstown roundabout the general consensus seems to be that half way into the outside lane is where the stop line should be.

RustyNut

PirateShampoo wrote: »

On the Walkinstown roundabout the general consensus seems to be that half way into the outside lane is where the stop line should be.

The only rule at the walkinstown roundabout is that there are no rules. :pac:

GM228

RustyNut wrote: »

I think you have that wrong. You can enter a box if you intend to turn right not after you turn right.

No I'm correct, once you enter a yellow box to turn right or when entering from a bus lane there is no law requiring you to clear the yellow box.

There is however a law requiring you to stop at a red light!

RustyNut

GM228 wrote: »

No I'm correct, once you enter a yellow box to turn right or when entering from a bus lane there is no law requiring you to clear the yellow box.

There is however a law requiring you to stop at a red light!

In this case if the car coming from Merton dr enters the box then stops at the red light he/she is stopped in a yellow box where there is no right turn and possibly obstructing long vehicles turning right from Marlborough road onto Sandford road.

The bottom line is that it's just a very badly designed junction.

GM228

RustyNut wrote: »

In this case if the car coming from Merton dr enters the box then stops at the red light he/she is stopped in a yellow box where there is no right turn and possibly obstructing long vehicles turning right from Marlborough road onto Sandford road.

The bottom line is that it's just a very badly designed junction.

As I'm unsure of the roads you'll have to refer to them as left, right, straight ahead, behind the camera etc

RustyNut

GM228 wrote: »

As I'm unsure of the roads you'll have to refer to them as left, right, straight ahead, behind the camera etc

If the car in degsie's pic turns right then stops at the red light then they are stopped in a junction box with no right turn available and possibly obstructing long vehicles approaching from the road to their left as they sit in the box, from turning right, if that makes sense. Its getting late.:)

degsie

RustyNut wrote: »

Maybe you might elaborate on the face palm.

So in the scenario already discussed, two cars are waiting to turn right from Merton Dr. Lights are red on main road and yellow box is clear. 1st car turns right and stops at pedestrian crossing and is sitting in the yellow box, what does the 2nd car do?

xabi

At the lights in Cork by Mahon Point coming from Mahon we have the opposite problem, the road layout there was changed slightly last year and a new piece of asphalt was laid and the stop line pushed out by about 10 feet. Most drivers now stop at the end of the newly laid asphalt rather than going up to the line. It annoys me more than it should.

whiskeyman

There are many junctions that have the stop line back from the junction / traffic lights to allow for cars (especially buses) turning into that road, due to tight / narrow angles.
It annoying the heck out of me seeing cars cruse over the line and up to the junction, thus blocking the turning angle for cars turning in

xabi

whiskeyman wrote: »

There are many junctions that have the stop line back from the junction / traffic lights to allow for cars (especially buses) turning into that road, due to tight / narrow angles.
It annoying the heck out of me seeing cars cruse over the line and up to the junction, thus blocking the turning angle for cars turning in

That's not the case in my example

RustyNut

degsie wrote: »

So in the scenario already discussed, two cars are waiting to turn right from Merton Dr. Lights are red on main road and yellow box is clear. 1st car turns right and stops at pedestrian crossing and is sitting in the yellow box, what does the 2nd car do?

What makes it ok for the first car to stop in the box? His exit is not clear, he is not intending to turn right. By stopping in the box the car could be causing problems for large vehicles turning right from marlborough road onto sandford road.

My view is that cars turning right from Merton drive should follow the basic rules of the road. In the first instance obey the yield sign when joining the main road followed by don't enter the yellow box unless you can clear it without stopping.

Yellow box rules.

GM228

RustyNut wrote: »

What makes it ok for the first car to stop in the box? His exit is not clear, he is not intending to turn right. By stopping in the box the car could be causing problems for large vehicles turning right from marlborough road onto sandford road.

My view is that cars turning right from Merton drive should follow the basic rules of the road. In the first instance obey the yield sign when joining the main road followed by don't enter the yellow box unless you can clear it without stopping.

Yellow box rules.

And what makes it ok to ignore a red light? That's part of the basic rules of the road also!

Thing is contrary to what people think it isn't illegal to stop in a yellow box!

It's illegal to enter a yellow box which you can't exit and a vehicle turning right is exempt from that rule, the vehicle in the picture enters that yellow box to turn right so it's exempt from the exit requirements, as I said it's not illegal to stop in a yellow box, but it is illegal to break a red light!

RustyNut

GM228 wrote: »

And what makes it ok to ignore a red light?

I never said its ok to pass a red light. Im saying that they should not enter the box if there is a red light.

GM228 wrote: »

It's illegal to enter a yellow box which you can't exit and a vehicle turning right is exempt from that rule,

Can you link to something to back this up? The RSA site would suggest the exact opposite to what you say, in fact their DON'T
example is just what you suggest is ok.