Stop lines at junctions

Charles Babbage

RustyNut wrote: »

What makes it ok for the first car to stop in the box? His exit is not clear, he is not intending to turn right. By stopping in the box the car could be causing problems for large vehicles turning right from marlborough road onto sandford road.

My view is that cars turning right from Merton drive should follow the basic rules of the road. In the first instance obey the yield sign when joining the main road followed by don't enter the yellow box unless you can clear it without stopping.

Yellow box rules.

Perhaps this yellow box should be a "keep Clear". But it is a yellow box before a junction, which can be distinguished from one in a junction. It has nothing to do with blocking vehicles turning from Marlborough Road, which as a 3t limit away, as it is before the Marlborough Road junction.

RustyNut

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Perhaps this yellow box should be a "keep Clear". But it is a yellow box before a junction, which can be distinguished from one in a junction. It has nothing to do with blocking vehicles turning from Marlborough Road, which as a 3t limit away, as it is before the Marlborough Road junction.

Not that it would make any difference to the rules but it is in the junction of Merton drive and Sandford road.

degsie

RustyNut wrote: »

What makes it ok for the first car to stop in the box? His exit is not clear, he is not intending to turn right. By stopping in the box the car could be causing problems for large vehicles turning right from marlborough road onto sandford road.

My view is that cars turning right from Merton drive should follow the basic rules of the road. In the first instance obey the yield sign when joining the main road followed by don't enter the yellow box unless you can clear it without stopping.

How in God's earth would cars (turning right) be able to clear Merton Dr in busy periods using your logic?

Edit: assuming they use the stop at red light rule

peneau

RustyNut wrote: »

I never said its ok to pass a red light. Im saying that they should not enter the box if there is a red light.



Can you link to something to back this up? The RSA site would suggest the exact opposite to what you say, in fact their DON'T
example is just what you suggest is ok.

The RSA Site. The exception example depicts the "Do" car turning right and the "Dont" car turning left.

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/yellow-box-junctions.html

RustyNut

degsie wrote: »

How in God's earth would cars (turning right) be able to clear Merton Dr in busy periods using your logic?

By following the rules of the road. How long does the wait have to be before the rules dont apply? There should be a light feeding traffic into the junction but there isn't therefor the rules for yield signs and yellow box apply.

degsie

RustyNut wrote: »

By following the rules of the road. How long does the wait have to be before the rules dont apply? There should be a light feeding traffic into the junction but there isn't therefor the rules for yield signs and yellow box apply.

Fortunately most drivers use common sense and would enter the yellow box.

RustyNut

peneau wrote: »

The RSA Site. The exception example depicts the "Do" car turning right and the "Dont" car turning left.

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/yellow-box-junctions.html

The do example shows someone entering the box intending to turn right when oncoming traffic allows.

The don't example shows a car after turning right into a box that they can't clear without stopping.

Allinall

The yellow box at that junction is solely to facilitate cars exiting from Merton Drive.

What other possible reason is there for it's existence?

peneau

RustyNut wrote: »

The do example shows someone entering the box intending to turn right when oncoming traffic allows.

The don't example shows a car after turning right into a box that they can't clear without stopping.

So it does apologies for that however.

From the RSA site:

"An exception is when you want to turn right. In this case, you may enter the yellow box junction while waiting for a gap in traffic coming from the opposite direction. However, don't enter the box if to do so would block other traffic that has the right of way."

endagibson

One I've noticed is that the first car at the light doesn't have the brakes on or something and continues to roll forward very slowly until the green light shows. FFS, take control of your vehicle.

RustyNut

peneau wrote: »

So it does apologies for that however.

From the RSA site:

"An exception is when you want to turn right. In this case, you may enter the yellow box junction while waiting for a gap in traffic coming from the opposite direction. However, don't enter the box if to do so would block other traffic that has the right of way."

The exception applies when you want to turn right from the box not into the box.

xabi

Are you saying cars exiting from Merton Drive cant stop in the box on a red?

RustyNut

xabi wrote: »

Are you saying cars exiting from Merton Drive cant stop in the box on a red?

The ROR are saying it. Its an offence that carries a fixed charge penalty of 60 euros.

Im open to being convinced that I'm wrong. Have you any links that say its ok?

xabi

RustyNut wrote: »

The ROR are saying it. Its an offence that carries a fixed charge penalty of 60 euros.

Im open to being convinced that I'm wrong. Have you any links that say its ok?

So you need to ask yourself the question: Whats the box there for in the first place? The only time it will get used is when there's a red light or when traffic is heavy. Its perfectly fine to turn right into it and stop, all box junctions are like this.

The penalty is for cars on the main road that fail to leave the box clear, and the reason they need to leave it clear is so that cars can exit from Merton Drive.

If Merton Drive wasn't there then there would be no box.

RustyNut

xabi wrote: »

Its perfectly fine to turn right into it and stop, all box junctions are like this.

Any link to back up this assertion?

degsie

RustyNut wrote: »

Any link to back up this assertion?

Do you live your life on internet links, or can you apply common sense as most drivers and Garda do?

RustyNut

degsie wrote: »

Do you live your life on internet links, or can you apply common sense as most drivers and Garda do?

Isn't that what the people who stick to the middle lane on the n 7 are doing. Applying their own "common sense" rather than sticking to the slightly inconvenient rules?

xabi

Can you answer the question as to why the box is there? What is its purpose?

degsie

RustyNut wrote: »

Isn't that what the people who stick to the middle lane on the n 7 are doing. Applying their own "common sense" rather than sticking to the slightly inconvenient rules?

I'm guessing you are just trolling now and this is getting waaay off topic.

RustyNut

degsie wrote: »

I'm guessing you are just trolling now and this is getting waaay off topic.

I'm not trolling and I can see and accept your point that we have to live in the real world. I have also said that I think the real problem with that junction is the design and the lack of a light to feed traffic into it from Merton drive.

dr.fuzzenstein

coylemj wrote: »

It's the typical Irish mentality - if there's a rule there to be broken, they will do it, even if there is no gain for the driver and it blocks the parallel lines showing where pedestrians should cross.

Then there is simple stupidity, like where someone (it's almost always a van) is turning left and they come to a stop so far across the stop line that they can't see the filter light on their left so the guy behind has to honk them when the left arrow comes on. Then they look over at the traffic lights in the middle of the junction which are still showing red and they refuse to budge until that light goes green.

wonski wrote: »

No. It isn't Irish mentality.

It is a worldwide mentality.

Well, I have to say that after driving in France, Italy and Germany it is.
In Ireland, drivers will deliberately disregard one way streets, yellow boxes, red lights,cycle lanes (drive and park in them), loading bays and, of course, cycle or any other boxes at traffic lights. And I mean as a matter of course, routinely and by a large percentage of drivers.
Now when it comes to Supermarkets, anything goes, any kind of sign or painted line simply loses all meaning to some people, because they know it private property and you can do whatever the fcuk you want.
I'm sorry, but the same does NOT happen in Germany. And it's not even enforcement. There is not much more visible enforcement on the roads over there, it IS mentality. Here little Johnny and Jane are told "you do what you want, the world is yours" in Germany it is more about living together as socially responsible adults.

GM228

RustyNut wrote: »

I never said its ok to pass a red light. Im saying that they should not enter the box if there is a red light.

You may say that, but the law doesn't.

RustyNut wrote: »

The RSA site would suggest the exact opposite to what you say, in fact their DON'T example is just what you suggest is ok.

No their "don't" example is not what I'm saying, re-read their don't example, it's in relation to blocking cars which may have a right of way (as in the outside lane as per the example), rights of way and yellow box's are separate issues.

If you read the text you will see that they quite rightly say you can't enter a yellow box unless you can exit it, and then they say the "exception" to the rule is when turning right.

You must not enter the yellow box junction unless you can clear it without stopping. An exception is when you want to turn right. In this case, you may enter the yellow box junction while waiting for a gap in traffic coming from the opposite direction. However, don't enter the box if to do so would block other traffic that has the right of way.

RustyNut wrote: »

The do example shows someone entering the box intending to turn right when oncoming traffic allows.

The don't example shows a car after turning right into a box that they can't clear without stopping.

Again the example is not about not being able to clear the box, it's about right of way.

RustyNut wrote: »

The exception applies when you want to turn right from the box not into the box.

No the exemption applies to a vehicle which enters the box to turn right, not turning right from within the box, think about it, how can you turn right from the box if you can't enter it in the first place?

RustyNut wrote: »

The ROR are saying it. Its an offence that carries a fixed charge penalty of 60 euros.

Im open to being convinced that I'm wrong. Have you any links that say its ok?

Forget what the RSA/ROR says, the Gardaí don't prosecute you based on what a guide book says, they prosecute you on the law, the RSA/ROR is not a source of law and it's been shown in the past that the RSA/ROR don't always get everything right or give prime examples of the situations they are explaining.

What people need to realise first is this:-

• It is not illegal to stop in a yellow box (exception being railway crossings)
• It is not illegal not to exit a yellow box
• It is illegal to enter a yellow box which you can't clear without stopping, but there is an exemption to that rule for vehicles turning right.

And here's the actual law as per Section 29 of the Road Traffic (Traffic & Parking) Regulations 1997 as amended by the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2012

Box Junctions

29. (1) Subject to sub-article (2), where traffic sign number RRM 020 (yellow box) is provided on a public road or at a junction between one or more roads or at a junction between one or more roads and a light railway (whether the junctions are controlled by traffic sign number RTS 001, RTS 002, RTS 004 or RTS 013 (traffic lights), or otherwise) and notwithstanding any indication to the contrary that may be given by such traffic signs, a driver of a vehicle shall not enter, either partly or wholly, the cross-hatched area unless the vehicle can clear the area without stopping.

(2) Sub-article (1) does not apply where the driver of a vehicle intending to make a right hand turn at a junction enters the cross-hatched area for that purpose

Yellow box laws are based on entry, not presence of, stopping within or exiting the yellow box, a vehicle intending to turn right which enters a yellow box for the purpose of turning right is exempt.

The vehicle in the picture is entering the yellow box for the purpose of turning right as opposed to left or straight on etc, therefore it is exempt.

As per the law if you legally enter the yellow box for the purpose of turning right you are exempt from the "do not enter unless the exit is clear" rules so you can do so subject to any other rules, namely you must then stop at the red light.

RustyNut

xabi wrote: »

Its perfectly fine to turn right into it and stop, all box junctions are like this.

Not according to the ROR DON'T example.

xabi wrote: »

Can you answer the question as to why the box is there? What is its purpose?

The same as any other box junction, to prevent people from stopping in it.

xabi

RustyNut wrote: »

Not according to the ROR DON'T example.




The same as any other box junction, to prevent people from stopping in it.

If Merton Road wasn't there, would that box junction be there?

RustyNut

xabi wrote: »

If Merton Road wasn't there, would that box junction be there?

Iv no idea.

(2) Sub-article (1) does not apply where the driver of a vehicle intending to make a right hand turn at a junction enters the cross-hatched area for that purpose.

When someone enters that box from Merton Drive what right turn would they be intending to make then?

Allinall

RustyNut wrote: »

Iv no idea.



When someone enters that box from Merton Drive what right turn would they be intending to make then?

They intended making a right turn from Merton Drive on to Sandford Road, and entered the yellow box ( provided for exactly that scenario) for that purpose.

It's very straightforward.

degsie

Allinall wrote: »

They intended making a right turn from Merton Drive on to Sandford Road, and entered the yellow box ( provided for exactly that scenario) for that purpose.

It's very straightforward.

Two words: head nail.

xabi

RustyNut wrote: »

Not according to the ROR DON'T example

I'd say that's because in that example the car is blocking the 2nd lane, it's a poor example just leading to confusion.