Serviced apartment noise

dubdev

Hi there

I live in an apartment in the IFSC and it's come to our attention that the apartment directly above our own is being let out for short term stays of a few days by agencies specialising in "weekend getaways." This is proving to be a problem as there have been issues with late night noise and disruption from this apartment on a regular basis for the past few months, and I'm going to approach the property management company. My issues with this are mainly:

• The apartment complex is not a hotel - there are families living here paying rent and mortgages who should be able to expect a good night's sleep.
• It's unfair for an absentee owner of a property to earning a nice income at the expense of the other residents' comfort.

I fully accept that there is a certain amount of give-and-take when it comes to noise in apartment blocks, as residents should be able to entertain guests from time to time, but equally they should be able to expect not to be disturbed by noise from neighbouring apartments most of the time.

I'm wondering has anyone else had this issue and how they approached it if they did.

Thanks

ED E

Get a copy of the head lease, this may be completely prohibited from the get go and then you're totally entitled to have the management co shut them down.

Baby01032012

dubdev wrote: »

Hi there

I live in an apartment in the IFSC and it's come to our attention that the apartment directly above our own is being let out for short term stays of a few days by agencies specialising in "weekend getaways." This is proving to be a problem as there have been issues with late night noise and disruption from this apartment on a regular basis for the past few months, and I'm going to approach the property management company. My issues with this are mainly:

• The apartment complex is not a hotel - there are families living here paying rent and mortgages who should be able to expect a good night's sleep.
• It's unfair for an absentee owner of a property to earning a nice income at the expense of the other residents' comfort.

I fully accept that there is a certain amount of give-and-take when it comes to noise in apartment blocks, as residents should be able to entertain guests from time to time, but equally they should be able to expect not to be disturbed by noise from neighbouring apartments most of the time.

I'm wondering has anyone else had this issue and how they approached it if they did.

Thanks

If your the apartment owner definitely talk to the management company as there may be management company rules re noise etc. that are being broken. If your the tenant go through your landlord first so he can talk to the management company.

There may be something on planning side of a residential development is being used in a commercial nature.

Short term lets are not in themselves illegal yet, I know DCC has moved to outlaw these Airbnb short term lets in temple bar.

irlrobins

There was a case in the courts recently where a Management Co got orders restraining the owners of an apartment letting it out to short-term holiday guests.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/court-restrains-short-term-letting-of-co-kerry-apartment-1.2714145

dubdev

Thanks for the replies all. We've actually just discovered that the guy in the apt below us, who does live there, is doing short term lets as well! There was a huge racket last night and my GF knocked on his door to ask him to pipe down, and he has a bed in the hallway, a bed in the kitchen and the two bedrooms.
We found an ad on daft.ie with his name and number on it advertising short term stays of a week or less!

We're definitely contacting the PM company now as we're not having that, it's totally unfair to own a property and be sandwiched between two apartments which are being used as hotel rooms.

Technocentral

dubdev wrote: »

Thanks for the replies all. We've actually just discovered that the guy in the apt below us, who does live there, is doing short term lets as well! There was a huge racket last night and my GF knocked on his door to ask him to pipe down, and he has a bed in the hallway, a bed in the kitchen and the two bedrooms.
We found an ad on daft.ie with his name and number on it advertising short term stays of a week or less!

We're definitely contacting the PM company now as we're not having that, it's totally unfair to own a property and be sandwiched between two apartments which are being used as hotel rooms.

Best of luck, can't stand living near scumbags myself. As I said elsewhere if Landlords concentrated on getting decent people it with better for all of us, its not that difficult.

Fkall

ED E wrote: »

Get a copy of the head lease, this may be completely prohibited from the get go and then you're totally entitled to have the management co shut them down.

Don't be so sure.

Management companies are unlikely to act if the majority of owners are landlords.

Equally they are much more likely to act if the majority are owner occupiers.

P. Breathnach

Fkall wrote: »

Don't be so sure.

Management companies are unlikely to act if the majority of owners are landlords.

Equally they are much more likely to act if the majority are owner occupiers.

If the lease prohibits short-term lettings (as some do) then the OMC is obliged to enforce the terms of the lease. They might not be keen to do so where most of the occupiers are not owners, but that does not lessen their obligations: it might be more difficult to get them to act.

While it might be possible to get somewhere with the apartment above which is being let out fully I would imagine it will be much more difficult with the one below who is having regular "guests" stay with him. The fact the owner is still living there makes things a lot more complicated imo.

That being said the management company may not really care if it's mostly tenants living there rather than owner occupiers (as others have said) as there simply won't be enough desire by the actual owners to do anything about it.

Is there also the possibility that short term lets are not clearly forbidden in the head lease?

athtrasna

Mod note

Can we stick to the topic at hand please. Any further off topic posts will be deleted.

Fian

An alternative route for you (in parallel with the suggested recourse to the management company) would be to explore whether this constitutes a change of use from residential to commercial, which would require planning permission.

the_syco

Ask the management how this affects block insurance, block security, etc?

foggy_lad

the_syco wrote: »

Ask the management how this affects block insurance, block security, etc?

I can't see them being ok with people sleeping on beds in the apartment hallway blocking the fire escape for others.

dubdev

Hi everyone,

Thanks again for your replies. The issue of whether a majority of owners are landlords or owner occupiers is in my mind, as it may shape the property management's view of the problem. Having said that, we made a significant investment in the apartment where we live, and we shouldn't be penalised for choosing to live where we bought, instead of using it as a nice bit of (undeclared?) income.

We had more noisy blow-ins last night. They returned home at 3.40am from a night out and we were woken up to the sound of them laughing and shouting on their balcony with thumping music coming through the ceiling. We let a roar at them to turn it down and go back inside as per the house rules, but it wasn't until we called security who visited them an hour later in person that they actually piped down.

I'll let you know the PM's response. I am absolutely wrecked, having gotten about 4 hours sleep so I'll be expecting something definitive from them, as this can't go on.

dubdev

Hi all

We had a call with the property management company last week. They said that short term lets are permitted, and of the 600 apartments in our complex, 100 of them are short term lets. They also stated that there are three short term let agencies operating in our complex, two of which are for corporate lets, and the third is for "weekend city breaks", who are letting out the apartment above us. The management company sent us on a charter

We also asked if there have been many complaints of noise, to which they said no, primarily because there are so few owner occupiers living here, which was disappointing to say the least. What they instructed us to do was to ring security any time there is a disturbance. If security are called and they find the guests in breach of the house rules, the owner will be fined 200 euro by way of their property management fee for each incident. This is a good idea in theory, but I wonder how likely it is to be enforced in reality.
The money from short term lets may be so good that even 600 euros in fines may make it worthwhile for the owner.

Right now, we're weighing up our options. On the one hand, we own the apartment, and we shouldn't have to put up with a constant stream of obnoxious randomers and a profiteering landlord disrupting our lives. We've just spent a load of money doing the apartment up and buying new furniture, and it would be desperate to be run out of your own home due to noise.

On the other hand, the property management company don't seem terribly interested in helping us out, presumably due to the fact we are in the owner-occupier minority. We sent a follow up email to our call detailing more noise we experienced the night after the call, as well as asking what steps the management company are going to take to police the short term let situation where we are, and asking if they could erect copies of the short term let charter in the building, as currently it's not visible anywhere. They have yet to reply.

It's really frustrating coming home from a busy day at work, only to have to prepare for a potentially disrupted night's sleep ahead. It's not a situation I think we could deal with for another 12 months. We also plan to have a family, and a noisy apartment doesn't seem like the ideal place for that, so moving out and selling or renting the apartment out might be the next step.

The third option is to bypass the property management company and try and contact the owner and make them aware of problems they are causing.I was also thinking it might be worthwhile contacting Dublin City Council to check the property management company's claim that short term lets comply with the planning permission.

Any other advice would be much appreciated, thanks.

P. Breathnach

Have you got a copy of your lease? It's probably worth your while reading it closely to check if the Property Manager is right about short-term letting.

MarkAnthony

The agent seem perfectly willing to help. You can't really do much else until you've done as asked.

I take it you're taking an active part in the OMC and are attending the meetings?

Mrs OBumble

dubdev wrote: »

We had a call with the property management company last week. They said that short term lets are permitted, and of the 600 apartments in our complex, 100 of them are short term lets.

...

Right now, we're weighing up our options. On the one hand, we own the apartment, and we shouldn't have to put up with a constant stream of obnoxious randomers and a profiteering landlord disrupting our lives.

I don't want to sound harsh, OP - but did you actually read the lease and think about the consequences before purchasing the property?

Maybe you could claim that your solicitor was negligent and should have informed you of the potential consequences of an apartment complex which allows short term leases. (Or maybe they did advise you, and you didn't take it seriously?)

Frankly, unless you can prove that noise complaints as per the procedure which the management company outlined don't work, then I'd hardly say you are being "run out".

dubdev

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I don't want to sound harsh, OP - but did you actually read the lease and think about the consequences before purchasing the property?

Maybe you could claim that your solicitor was negligent and should have informed you of the potential consequences of an apartment complex which allows short term leases. (Or maybe they did advise you, and you didn't take it seriously?)

Frankly, unless you can prove that noise complaints as per the procedure which the management company outlined don't work, then I'd hardly say you are being "run out".

No we didn't read the lease, we just handed over a few hundred grand willy nilly :rolleyes:

What "potential consequences" are you referring to? That our neighbours might act like ignorant little b****xes and we would have little recourse?
No, we weren't advised of that, and the implication of that question is that if you buy an apartment and choose to live in it, then more fool you. If this were the accepted norm, who on earth would buy an apartment?

When you buy an apartment, you're buying into, amongst other things, a social contract between other owners to show courtesy and expect that courtesy to be reciprocated. One owner who happens to be our neighbour is not playing ball, treating their investment as a means to extract a nice little earner with scant regard to other residents. They aren't using AirBnB so I'd imagine it's unlikely they are declaring it either.

I don't know why you're trying to insinuate that it's somehow our fault this is happening, our position is entirely reasonable as recent rulings in Temple bar and Killarney would show.

groovyg

dubdev wrote: »

There was a huge racket last night and my GF knocked on his door to ask him to pipe down, and he has a bed in the hallway, a bed in the kitchen and the two bedrooms.
We found an ad on daft.ie with his name and number on it advertising short term stays of a week or less!
.

He must be treating it like the ski chalets where you pack as many as you can in. How many people are staying in the apartment ?

dubdev

groovyg wrote: »

He must be treating it like the ski chalets where you pack as many as you can in. How many people are staying in the apartment ?

It varies from week to week. We can see a bed in the kitchen area, and my gf saw another bed in the hallway when he answered the door to her the other week. The apartment is specced out as two bedroom so there could be another two on top of that if he's put single beds in there.

foggy_lad

dubdev wrote: »

It varies from week to week. We can see a bed in the kitchen area, and my gf saw another bed in the hallway when he answered the door to her the other week. The apartment is specced out as two bedroom so there could be another two on top of that if he's put single beds in there.

I wonder does that breach fire safety laws? if the apartment is listed as a certain occupancy then beds in the Kitchen or hallways would surely be a fire hazard?

Graham

foggy_lad wrote: »

I wonder does that breach fire safety laws? if the apartment is listed as a certain occupancy then beds in the Kitchen or hallways would surely be a fire hazard?

Looks like guest accommodation is accompanied by a whole raft of additional requirements:

The Fire Services Act, 1981 applies to premises used for the provision of sleeping accommodation (with the exception of premises consisting of a dwelling house occupied as a single dwelling). The Act also applies to premises used for any purpose involving access to the premises by members of the public, whether on payment or otherwise. The Act applies to these premises, irrespective of whether or not they are registered or approved by any registration or approval body, or subject to other statutory requirements.

For the purposes of this Guide, guest accommodation refers to existing premises, other than hotels and hostels, providing overnight guest accommodation, and includes guesthouses, bed and breakfast and similar establishments providing overnight guest accommodation.

http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/Community/FireandEmergencyServices/FileDownLoad,2072,en.pdf

Section 1.5.2 is particularly interesting:

Part III of the Building Control Regulations, 1997 sets out the requirements relating to the need to obtain a fire safety certificate. A fire safety certificate is required in respect of most new buildings and in respect of existing buildings that are subject to certain material alterations and changes of use. A fire safety certificate is required in respect of the following:
==//==
• A material change of use of any existing building, including a dwelling house, which is
to be used for guest accommodation; or

Mrs OBumble

dubdev wrote: »

No we didn't read the lease, we just handed over a few hundred grand willy nilly :rolleyes:

What "potential consequences" are you referring to? That our neighbours might act like ignorant little b****xes and we would have little recourse?
No, we weren't advised of that, and the implication of that question is that if you buy an apartment and choose to live in it, then more fool you. If this were the accepted norm, who on earth would buy an apartment?

When you buy an apartment, you're buying into, amongst other things, a social contract between other owners to show courtesy and expect that courtesy to be reciprocated. One owner who happens to be our neighbour is not playing ball, treating their investment as a means to extract a nice little earner with scant regard to other residents.

You did read the lease? So why did it take the management company to point out to you that short term lettings are allowed?

Really, your problem is no different to any other house-owner who has noisy neighbours. The fact that it's an apartment in a complex rather than a house means they're a little closer - but on the other hand, unlike most estates, the management company does have a security number that you can call 24.x7.

Also, you chose to buy in an inner city apartment location so of course there will of course be far more turnover in your neighbourhood and randomers around the place. That's just the nature of inner-city living.


I notice you've also dodged the question someone else asked about whether you have attended the AGMs and offered to serve on the management committee.

Graham

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You did read the lease? So why did it take the management company to point out to you that short term lettings are allowed?

Things that are 'allowed' are often only apparent by their absence from a document, not necessarily by their inclusion.

The fact that the management company consider short-term holiday letting as acceptable does not indicate this was specifically stated on the lease.

Theoretically it should have been safe to assume that the local authority would enforce the existing planning regulation that should require a change of use when converting a property to short-term holiday lets.

dubdev

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You did read the lease? So why did it take the management company to point out to you that short term lettings are allowed?

Really, your problem is no different to any other house-owner who has noisy neighbours. The fact that it's an apartment in a complex rather than a house means they're a little closer - but on the other hand, unlike most estates, the management company does have a security number that you can call 24.x7.

Also, you chose to buy in an inner city apartment location so of course there will of course be far more turnover in your neighbourhood and randomers around the place. That's just the nature of inner-city living.


I notice you've also dodged the question someone else asked about whether you have attended the AGMs and offered to serve on the management committee.

You're absolutely right! It's all our fault. We should have known we were signing up for a revolving door of noisy tourists living right above us. We shouldn't have any expectations of peace and quiet. Having to ring our security number 4 nights in a 10 day period is par for the course.

athtrasna

Mod note

A gentle reminder that the forum charter asks posters to remain civil

Thanks

Eric Cartman

We've had a few threads on this now , and Id like to come at this from a different angle. These short term letters are hardly bringing a drum kit or kango hammer with them for the weekend. An apartment block with decent sound insulation should be able to maintain this density of weekend lets without disturbing other tenants.

We desperately need minimum soundproofing legislation.

dubdev

athtrasna wrote: »

Mod note

A gentle reminder that the forum charter asks posters to remain civil

Thanks

Apologies. I took issue with being goaded or antagonised but if that wasn't the poster's intent I apologise .

dubdev

Eric Cartman wrote: »

We've had a few threads on this now , and Id like to come at this from a different angle. These short term letters are hardly bringing a drum kit or kango hammer with them for the weekend. An apartment block with decent sound insulation should be able to maintain this density of weekend lets without disturbing other tenants.

We desperately need minimum soundproofing legislation.

That is a good point. It probably could be better.

However our bedroom is at a right angle to the balcony in the apartment upstairs which is where a lot of the problem occurs when they get home from a night out drunk and start shouting and making a commotion .

seamusk84

Id be looking to sell up and find somewhere more suitable to live. It's just not worth the hassle.