Nice - Bastille day **mod warning post 1**

Billy86

jmayo wrote: »

I wouldn't be crowing too much.
Ever read Tarek Fatah author of Chasing a Mirage: The Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State.
He is founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress and served as its communications officer and spokesperson for several years.
Fatah advocates gay rights, a separation of religion and state, opposition to sharia law, and advocacy for a "liberal, progressive form" of Islam.

Now this same guy has raised "the issue of Islamic clerics using mosque sermons to attack the foundational principles of Western civilization and liberal secular democracy."
He was accused by Liberal senator Grant Mitchell that he was motivated by Islamophobia.
Yep a Pakistani born muslim is islamophobic.

Actually one very apt statement he has made which is very important in light of discussions here on modernising islam is the following:

Fatah is fairly interesting with some good opinions - I personally like that speaks his mind and tends to be quite open and genuine in what he says. The world could use more like him in many senses. I agree with him on a number of issues, not least of all that the US & CIA had a very significant hand in the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.

That said, he does appear to have a chip on his shoulder at times. He left the NDP claiming it was becoming 'flooded' with Islamic fundamentalists to join Labour, and after his favoured guy lost a leadership battle he did he left them too, trying to cite the exact same thing. Some also question if he really still is Muslim as he doesn't attend a mosque (fair enough, can be lapsed) but also encourages parents not to take their children to them either. At times he can be quite OTT as well, such as when he called the Reviving the Islamic Spirit attendees, all 30,000 of them, Islamists - it's not like they are some fringe group, Trudeau was scheduled to speak at the event. He tends to throw that label around very freely to those he disagrees with, to be honest. Some of that kind of carry on is always going to cause ill sentiment, and I would argue it played a role in the comment Mitchell apparently made. Then again, most in public/governance/etc roles are prone to that kind of posturing and carry on (see: Mitchell's comments), so I'd consider it worth noting but not a reason to discredit entirely or anything of the sort.

To try and show that his opinion means there is some large issue with Islamism in Toronto though, is kind of flawed. And to try and claim Mitchell calling him an Islamophobe as evidence of there being some large issue with Islamism in Toronto, is also flawed. And you'll find plenty of actual Islamophobes who will try to claim he is not Muslim because he doesn't fit into their stereotypical view of being regressive, homophobic, etc... some people on boards have expressed similar opinions, I think even going so far as to say if Muslims are not terrorists or terrorist sympathisers, then they are not Muslim.

RasTa

inforfun wrote: »

In my life i have been on holidays in France about 10 times.
I have French colleagues at work

Number of holidays i had in Iraq > 0
Number of Iraqi colleagues > 0

Do you mind i care more about what happens in France than what happens in Baghdad?

Strange way of looking at terrorism imo.

MarinersBlues

inforfun wrote: »

In my life i have been on holidays in France about 10 times.
I have French colleagues at work

Number of holidays i had in Iraq > 0
Number of Iraqi colleagues > 0

Do you mind i care more about what happens in France than what happens in Baghdad?

> = greater than

Moo Moo Land

conorhal wrote: »

Congratulations, you have reached virtue signaller level 10! Give youself a 100 facebook likes as a reward.

So you don't like balance in discussions eh?

Lavinia

So far as I've read it seems this individual acted on his own??
Does anyone believe in that?


No motive has yet been claimed for this, no one claims the responsibility etc..


Can it be??

inforfun

MarinersBlues wrote: »

> = greater than

---->

I have edited especially for you.

Better?

Skullface McGubbin

So another attack by an islamic terrorist. It looks as if it's becoming a regular thing and it's a farce at this stage. It's reasonable to assume there will probably be more through out the year in the world. I wonder how many times it has to keep happening until people take a hint and do what it takes to tackle it.

Moo Moo Land

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

This is something I wrote on another message board:

... A war not predicated on religion or freedom or terror insofar as western media would like you to believe so much as it is centred around the coercive redistribution of wealth since 1908. Strange how Saddam nationalised the oil fields in 1972, yet in 2006 it was announced that they were going up for market auction in the hopes of attracting international bidders, as the oil fields needed more advanced technology and more experienced technicians in order to extract maximum utility. Stranger still how all six companies that won the bid were American. This is a more recent example but such practises have been imposed by the west by over a century. Make no mistake, the 'terror' will not end as long as the west act as profiteers of the Middle East, and live the lavish life style the oil field residences have been deprived of...

Yes, there is the Islamic State-promised caliphate and general hatred of countries that do not fall under Sharia law, propagated by the rich and exposed to the poor who, growing up and culturally conditioned by constant anti-western propaganda, believe they are doing god's work. But this is a knock-off effect of destablising Iraq - and attacks like this do not occur for religious reasons, they occur because of failing IS strongholds in the Middle East, and realising their backs are against the wall, that this is no different to the entire history of western intervention in the Middle East since 1908. It is a war of wealth. The pawns may not realise it, and the westerners buying into western propaganda may not realise it, but that is what this is.

Great post. The longer people ignore the root causes and keep blaming a religion (1.6 billion adherents), the worse the terrorism will get. It's always the economy, stupid.

Billy86

Lavinia wrote: »

So far as I've read it seems this individual acted on his own??
Does anyone believe in that?


No motive has yet been claimed for this, no one claims the responsibility etc..


Can it be??

Maybe, maybe not.

Still, even if he was acting as a loner rather than on behalf of ISIS or a similar group, I'm thinking their general rhetoric had a strong influence on him, much like the far right elements of the Brexit campaign did on Tommy Mair.

My name is URL

Skullface McGubbin wrote: »

So another attack by an islamic terrorist. It looks as if it's becoming a regular thing and it's a farce at this stage. It's reasonable to assume there will probably be more through out the year in the world. I wonder how many times it has to keep happening until people take a hint and do what it takes to tackle it.

Such as what?

Everyone keeps saying something needs to be done but nobody has actually said what that something is.

questionmark?

Skullface McGubbin wrote: »

So another attack by an islamic terrorist. It looks as if it's becoming a regular thing and it's a farce at this stage. It's reasonable to assume there will probably be more through out the year in the world. I wonder how many times it has to keep happening until people take a hint and do what it takes to tackle it.

If you listen to some people on here it was not a terrorist attack but just someone who wanted to commit suicide and take people with him and wasn't anything to do with Islam. Yep you got to love AH some times.

conorhal

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

So you don't like balance in discussions eh?

Congratulations on reaching irony fail level 100! Your prize is a French flag filter for your facebook page!

If you want to reply to a post try #1201

vg88

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/please-stop-staying-the-nice-attacks-arent-about-islam/?WTmcid=tmgoff_soc_spf_fb&WT.mc_id=sf31048944

Great article in the telegraph by a muslim.

Said similar stuff to the above article (before seeing it) few muslims friends today and all they said was "they are not real muslims" "islam is peaceful" and they got very vicious when related back to issue whether it encourages extremism. "Unless you read the quoran don't say anything you're just being racist and ignorant" or "you're so stupid" are lines my "friends" said when the subject came up of another islamist attack. They won't accept islam has a problem and these are second generation immigrants, where history shows the issues begin and history I think is repeating itself here.

We are looking into a very sad decade within europe i think

Moo Moo Land

conorhal wrote: »

Congratulations on reaching irony fail level 100! Your prize is a French flaf filter for your face book page!

If you want to reply to a post try #1201

You're so cool.

I read that after the Paris attacks. It's ISIS nonsense.

What is your point? Better yet, what is your root cause and solution?

wakka12

Skullface McGubbin wrote: »

So another attack by an islamic terrorist. It looks as if it's becoming a regular thing and it's a farce at this stage. It's reasonable to assume there will probably be more through out the year in the world. I wonder how many times it has to keep happening until people take a hint and do what it takes to tackle it.

What will it take? The french police and military seem to be doing everything they can, they stopped dozens of large attacks during the Euros in France, Im sure it was a huge task. They are doing a good job, theres no way of realistically stopping a lunatic from taking it upon himself one night to drive a truck into a crowd unfortunately

RasTa

The van being parked there for 9 hours seems to be a **** up by the police. That motorcyclist went under the truck and has died it's being reported.

Moo Moo Land

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

Great post. The longer people ignore the root causes and keep blaming a religion (1.6 billion adherents), the worse the terrorism will get. It's always the economy, stupid.

I think the economy plays a huge role, but it's not the only one.

Why were most of the 9/11 bombers from oil-rich states like Saudi? Some came from prominent families and were educated in Europe.

Why don't most terrorists come from sub-saharan Africa?

We know that radicalised groups are correlated with deprivation to an extent, but it's also possibly a product of mass humiliation and a lack of belonging, perhaps through cultural alienation.

It's not as simple as economic deprivation, although that is frequently a contributing factor, for sure.

osmiumartist

There's no excuse for attacks on civilians.
But is it Islam or the fact the France has slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Arabs that leads to them getting hit more than anywhere else in Europe?

Shenshen

timmyntc wrote: »

Agreed, however shouting "There's nothing wrong with Islam!!!!" or crying "Islamaphobia!!" does little to help and everything to enable the problem.

There is a problem with Islam: it's stuck in the dark ages whereas Christianity has come forward leaps and bounds. The very fact that Christians don't live their lives according to the old testament is proof enough of this.
However in most sects of Islam, the Quran is still, in it's entirety, the bees knees, the be all and end all. It is the word of God and must be followed.

Yes, and a century or so ago there was a problem with Christianity. And then there was a problem with nationalism, and then there was one with women's rights.
And all of these have stopped being issues that cause terrorism (in most of the world, anyway).

So what has changed about Christianity to turn it from burning heretics alive to mildly annoying people wanting to tell you about god on a Saturday morning in town?
And what can be done to speed up the same process for Islam?

There IS nothing wrong with religion, but there is something wrong with the way people use it. So rather than wasting time with trying to find out what's wrong with the religion that's currently causing terrorism, we need to figure out how to address how a religion can become vulnerable to such abuse.
Because otherwise we'll still be hunting down Muslims when the bomb-throwers have found a new religion to offer them a cause.

Gringo180

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Why are they allowed to fester within France. ? They have their own little communities, 100's of them around France. Can't touch them until they kill.
World is too PC.

What do you suggest? Internment? They hardly walk around with a sign on there heads saying "im a terrorist"??

osmiumartist

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Why are they allowed to fester within France. ? They have their own little communities, 100's of them around France. Can't touch them until they kill.
World is too PC.

Since, as you say yourself, there are 100s of Muslim communities across France, you've pretty much proven yourself that the percentage of Muslims who are terrorists is miniscule. So well done on that.

captbarnacles

My name is URL wrote: »

Such as what?

Everyone keeps saying something needs to be done but nobody has actually said what that something is.

I think they are reluctant to say what they think because it's along the lines of internment/expulsion.

Moo Moo Land

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I think the economy plays a huge role, but it's not the only one.

Why were most of the 9/11 bombers from oil-rich states like Saudi? Some came from prominent families and were educated in Europe.

Why don't most terrorists come from sub-saharan Africa?

We know that radicalised groups are correlated with deprivation to an extent, but it's also possibly a product of mass humiliation and a lack of belonging, perhaps through cultural alienation.

It's not as simple as economic deprivation, although that is frequently a contributing factor, for sure.

I would suggest that the reasons might even vary per country. For example USA is hated as an infidel invader trying to secure the middle east oil whereas France has a lot of colonial baggage which is definitely a factor.

Moo Moo Land

Gringo180 wrote: »

What do you suggest? Internment? They hardly walk around with a sign on there heads saying "im a terrorist"??

Internment is a crazy idea that could never work.

Lavinia

osmiumartist wrote: »

There's no excuse for attacks on civilians.
But is it Islam or the fact the France has slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Arabs that leads to them getting hit more than anywhere else in Europe?

Tbh I thought France was one of the most liberal countries in Europe when the accepting of immigrants from lets say "Muslim" countries is is question...

Can it be it is now just a country of the opportunity for attacks?


(not stating, just asking eg posing a question)

captbarnacles

captbarnacles wrote: »

I think they are reluctant to say what they think because it's along the lines of internment/expulsion.

Islamic radicalisation isn't a sudoku. There isn't a small number of clear and unambiguous answers.

There might not even be an answer. How do you unstretch a plastic bag? You can't.

I have no difficulty in saying I don't know the answers to violent extremism in the name of Islam, only what steps might be taken to mitigate it, such as educational and economic empowerment, the promotion of integration by not building ghettos, and by greater state control over education. We could list a thousand possible solutions, and they might do wonders, or they might only make a dent. I don't know.

I do know with a fairly high degree of certainty, that security and coercive measures alone are not going to stamp-out violent extremism in the name of Islam.

My name is URL

osmiumartist wrote: »

Since, as you say yourself, there are 100s of Muslim communities across France, you've pretty much proven yourself that the percentage of Muslims who are terrorists is miniscule. So well done on that.

I'd have far more respect for someone who had the courage to say it if it's what they honestly believe.

Even if it is a ridiculous and unworkable idea which deserves nothing more than to be laughed at.

_oveless_

europe needs to realize that this is the new normal, we need to accept that large groups of people will be killed on a more regular basis from now on and just get on with it as a part of life. the real fight is against islamaphobia and people who question immigration and security policies. we need to be even more tolerant from now on because even though these people are not representing islam if we further upset muslims they will kill us and it will be our own fault.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

moloner4 wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/please-stop-staying-the-nice-attacks-arent-about-islam/?WTmcid=tmgoff_soc_spf_fb&WT.mc_id=sf31048944

Great article in the telegraph by a muslim.
(

Maajid Nawz is a very interesting man who, having once been an extremist, is well-qualified to talk on the issue. I'd recommend reading articles or watching speeches by him.

Ronald Wilson Reagan

_oveless_ wrote: »

europe needs to realize that this is the new normal, we need to accept that large groups of people will be killed on a more regular basis from now on and just get on with it as a part of life. the real fight is against islamaphobia and people who question immigration and security policies. we need to be even more tolerant from now on because even though these people are not representing islam if we further upset muslims they will kill us and it will be our own fault.

Did you forget this: :rolleyes:.

Fleawuss

A change needed in permitting and managing large gatherings of people
Hardened physical and aggressive human controls on access to such gatherings
Changes in law that allow imprisonment for accessing Islamist extremist websites
Intelligence gathering by wider community via easier tip offs
Cuts in public spending in some areas to finance enhanced security
Treason trials for French citizens proven to have fought for Islamist extremism
All religious services every time they are held to include formal denunciations of terrorism
Complete Programme of secular republican values to be compulsorily taught in all schools if not already done in France
Expanded voluntary reserve police force so that a trained force can be deployed in all communities
Utter destruction of the Caliphate where it still claims to exist, its troops, it's money, it's funders, it's infrastructure
Cyber war on all websites and social media accounts supporting Islamist extremism
Accept that you are in a war that will last across generations and accept there will be casualties on a mass scale

There's a lot that can be done if the will is there. The other alternative is of course to surrender and leave IS to rule the roost in Syria / Iraq until they get strong enough to start on Europe again.

bnt

It's the First Night of the Proms, so:

https://twitter.com/bbcproms/status/754022894758338560

screamer

_oveless_ wrote: »

europe needs to realize that this is the new normal, we need to accept that large groups of people will be killed on a more regular basis from now on and just get on with it as a part of life. the real fight is against islamaphobia and people who question immigration and security policies. we need to be even more tolerant from now on because even though these people are not representing islam if we further upset muslims they will kill us and it will be our own fault.

Here we go again ...... we will never accept this as the new normal. Never.

pragmatic1

This is going to become the norm like N.Ireland was in the bad days.

Billy86

screamer wrote: »

Here we go again ...... we will never accept this as the new normal. Never.

Neither did some who didn't want black people in Europe, Eastern Europeans in western Europe, or gays, Jews or women be seen as equal.

Flint Fredstone

screamer wrote: »

Here we go again ...... we will never accept this as the new normal. Never.

I wouldn't bother. That's his thing in these threads.



Paris Attacks thread:

_oveless_ wrote: »

Can mods please ban people and delete posts criticizing islam? islam is the biggest victim in all this as people will question and make accusations against muslims as well as criticizing multiculturalism

wakka12

screamer wrote: »

Here we go again ...... we will never accept this as the new normal. Never.

they were clearly being sarcastic?

Flint Fredstone

wakka12 wrote: »

they were clearly being sarcastic?

You would think...

screamer

.

wakka12

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

You would think...

the 'and it will be our fault' at the end made me 100% think it was a sarcastic post

screamer

wakka12 wrote: »

the 'and it will be our fault' at the end made me 100% think it was a sarcastic post

Oh it was far from scarcastic........

Jimmy Garlic

_oveless_ wrote: »

europe needs to realize that this is the new normal, we need to accept that large groups of people will be killed on a more regular basis from now on and just get on with it as a part of life. the real fight is against islamaphobia and people who question immigration and security policies. we need to be even more tolerant from now on because even though these people are not representing islam.

People are Islamophobic for very good reasons, it is a homicidal death cult from the dark ages. Why should we tolerate that?

if we further upset muslims they will kill us and it will be our own fault

Crazy statement. I couldn't care less what Muslims are upset about, that's not a ticket to kill people. If they are not happy in Europe they should clear off home. Not one more inch should be given to Islam.

Jimmy Garlic

wakka12 wrote: »

the 'and it will be our fault' at the end made me 100% think it was a sarcastic post

100% serious. Look down through his/her other posts.

osmiumartist

Lavinia wrote: »

Tbh I thought France was one of the most liberal countries in Europe when the accepting of immigrants from lets say "Muslim" countries is is question...

Can it be it is now just a country of the opportunity for attacks?


(not stating, just asking eg posing a question)

France have traditionally had a lot more Arab refugees than other European countries anyway, due to their imperialist colonisation of North Africa. They took in a lot of those who picked the wrong side in the Algerian war of independence for example.
As an aside, it's quite strange to see this being described as the biggest security issue in France since WWII, considering De Gaulle was very close to being overthrown by an attempted military coup in the 60s.

end of the road

"World is too PC"

translates as "the world isn't racist and bigoted enough for my liking"

Strumms

The problem at the moment is that the extremists are winning out. On both sides of the debate. This is being reflected in the make up of politics all over Europe and even in America with the emergence of Trump as a political option.

On one hand you have people who say.. " well maybe we need to discuss immigration, I have some fears or concerns that it could have an impact on my society and way of life and have security implications. " Often people who utter such opinions are shouted down as racists by the extreme left. If people have a concern or fear it should be debated, addressed and listened to.

That is one of the biggest issues now that everything is so polarized.

Someone else can take the view that " we should be doing more for the people of Syria, take in more refugees and relax restrictions." They are labeled left wing commie limp wristed liberals.

Yes there are some people out there who want free moment of all people between all countries *shudder* and those who also want more insular arrangements and closed borders *shudder*.

The common sense argument of talking about it and addressing peoples concerns is not there in the whole conversation it is getting drowned out by extreme views and presidential platitudes and rhetoric where we will all be peaceful and happy and we condemn ISIS, show our solidarity with the Muslims and what not. All very well and good but where is the solution ? Being apart of the European Union you would think might bring us all that bit more together in a political sense and get some sort of strategy together because as sure as **** there will be some time in the future where this type of atrocity is visited on our own country and others.

In the mean time it would be really great if people who have concerns about immigration or want to talk about the wider issues are not shouted down as racists and for the same goes for people who want to do the right thing by genuine refugees....

_oveless_

screamer wrote: »

Here we go again ...... we will never accept this as the new normal. Never.

thankfully the Prime Minister of France is more forward thinking and tolerant:

https://heatst.com/uk/nice-attack-french-prime-minister-says-learn-to-live-with-terrorism-after-84-die/

end of the road

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

People are Islamophobic for very good reasons

no they aren't. they are Islamophobic because they are bigoted toards anyone and everything that isn't the same as them.

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

If they are not happy in Europe they should clear off home.

well considering some of them are all ready home, that would be hard.

end of the road

Fleawuss wrote: »

A change needed in permitting and managing large gatherings of people
Hardened physical and aggressive human controls on access to such gatherings
Changes in law that allow imprisonment for accessing Islamist extremist websites
Intelligence gathering by wider community via easier tip offs
Cuts in public spending in some areas to finance enhanced security
Treason trials for French citizens proven to have fought for Islamist extremism
All religious services every time they are held to include formal denunciations of terrorism
Complete Programme of secular republican values to be compulsorily taught in all schools if not already done in France
Expanded voluntary reserve police force so that a trained force can be deployed in all communities
Utter destruction of the Caliphate where it still claims to exist, its troops, it's money, it's funders, it's infrastructure
Cyber war on all websites and social media accounts supporting Islamist extremism

1. what changes in permitting and managing large gatherings of people
2. what Hardened physical and aggressive human controls on access to such gatherings
3. laws that allow imprisonment for accessing Islamist extremist websites all ready exist, and are used.
4. Intelligence gathering by wider community via easier tip offs is all ready availible.
5. Cuts in public spending in some areas to finance enhanced security can't be done. it's a form of collective punishment, which is against human rights. the current budget to fund security must be increased without punishing some "just because"
6. Treason trials for French citizens proven to have fought for Islamist extremism are not needed, treason is redundant and has been for decades. existing anti-terror laws deal with those fighting or who have faught with extremist groups.
7. All religious services every time they are held to include formal denunciations of terrorism are not needed.
8. Complete Programme of secular republican values to be compulsorily taught in all schools is all ready mostly existing.
9. an Expanded voluntary reserve police force so that a trained force can be deployed in all communities isn't needed, funding the regular police properly would be a much better idea and would be more cost effective.
10. an attempt to destroy the Caliphate where it still claims to exist is all ready happening.
11. a Cyber war on all websites and social media accounts supporting Islamist extremism is happening, but it mostly can't work.

lawlolawl

In a slightly bizarre turn of events, Reddit made some Dutch newspapers/news media believe that American ex-shock jock Anthony Cumia was the terrorist involved.

They leaked the name as "antwan kumiya" and provided a bunch of photos of him.

http://www.antena3.ro/actualitate/mohamed-lahouaiej-bouhlel-terorist-368189.html

http://i.imgur.com/JJqAXff.jpg