Electric car poll

testicles

This post has been deleted.

RedorDead

RedorDead wrote: »

Also - Madlad are you out to learn why people dont want to drive an electric car or out to preach to them why they should by shooting down their valid reasons why they wont? I certainly cant make which you actually want to do here.

I'm trying to build a picture of why people are not buying electric cars in this country more for educational and research purposes. I've no agenda in this Poll or thread and I made my intentions clear to the Mods before posting. I even requested that I can post this in the regular Motors section.

I'm not a member of any organisation , Government or Media.

More of our energy today is coming from wind than coal. And sometimes up to 50% of our energy comes from wind.

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all

Also electrics are up to 80% efficient. Drive on the same amount of fuel a leaf does for instance in your diesel and you wouldn't get more than 10-12 miles.

stesaurus

testicles wrote: »

Oh a picture, that told me!

LIGHTNING

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I saw that in the UK one of the suppliers is upping the standard charge rate so its cheaper to run diesel now. Think a load of the Renault Zoe's went for sale on the day of the announcement.

Depends on the driving you do, for the majority of driving you charge at home on night rate costing about 2 Euro's empty to full.

With a 300-350 Km range EV that cost would be about 5.40. And at that point, it opens up electrics to a whole lot more people.

Perhaps a lot of people might even buy the 480-550 Km BMW 3 series EV when it comes out.

s.welstead

s.welstead wrote: »

Oh a picture, that told me!

That picture is photoshopped.

There'd be nothing but pure steam coming from the largest concrete stacks.

Plopli

Plopli wrote: »

I'm definitely considering one for the next car.
Wife commute is ~ 90km round trip and they have charger close to where she works.

Only reason to not get one is returning to the continent to see the family for the holidays (with the dog) but at some point it get cheaper to rent a larger car for that.

Well if considering EV, wait until the first of the 300 Km electrics appear in 2018.

robtri

Deleted User wrote: »

More of our energy today is coming from wind than coal. And sometimes up to 50% of our energy comes from wind.

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all

Also electrics are up to 80% efficient. Drive on the same amount of fuel a leaf does for instance in your diesel and you wouldn't get more than 10-12 miles.

we average around 20 to 25% coal and 50% gas.... so there is nothing clean about electric cars.. trying to make it sound better than it is is part of the problem with electric cars.... we still produce around 400 to 500 gr CO2 per KWh here in Ireland...

robtri

robtri wrote: »

they are not anyway green (electricity in this country is just as bad as modern diesels)

Most of our electricity comes from Gas, and 20% Coal the rest from wind and Nuclear from the U.K.

There is substantial wind generation on windy days/nights up to 50% and growing.

They need to add solar PV to the mix.

Oafley Jones

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm trying to build a picture of why people are not buying electric cars in this country more for educational and research purposes. I've no agenda in this Poll or thread and I made my intentions clear to the Mods before posting. I even requested that I can post this in the regular Motors section.

I'm not a member of any organisation , Government or Media.

What sort of data does that poll give you? How could you use it for education and research? As someone who's been hammered in research methodologies at post grad level I'll tell you what you have put up would be questionable for a primary school student. And if you want to learn the answers to your questions I suggest you stick to the topic, stop and actual listen to what people are saying. Otherwise it's looking like your usual preaching.

robtri

robtri wrote: »

we average around 20 to 25% coal and 50% gas.... so there is nothing clean about electric cars.. trying to make it sound better than it is is part of the problem with electric cars.... we still produce around 400 to 500 gr CO2 per KWh here in Ireland...

But you're missing the point, they use that energy much more efficiently and can take any of the growing wind energy in the mix. Petrol and diesel can't and rely on transported fuel that consumes vast amounts of energy to refine which is then burnt at about 20-30% at best, efficiency.

Add to that all the diesels spewing out toxic emissions directly in our towns and cities.

Oafley Jones

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But you're missing the point, they use that energy much more efficiently and can take any of the growing wind energy in the mix. Petrol and diesel can't and rely on transported fuel that consumes vast amounts of energy to refine which is then burnt at about 20-30% at best, efficiency.

Add to that all the diesels spewing out toxic emissions directly in our towns and cities.

Same old Mad_Lad. He has demonstrated no interest in learning anything.

Same O'l same O'l here.

Water John

Interesting poll results. Realise its not highly scientific. But it qualifies as a decent indicator.
Hard for most of us to envisage the change of the future.

We don't know what technologies will ripen even if you keep a eye on the research areas.

Batteries have developments in the pipeline. One is, short term high speed charging where the anodes are of titanium oxide. Another is where battery size to energy ratio will multiply by 7.
If both these come to fruition or similar, the game totally changes.

To declare, we have one EV and a diesel. If the range was significantly increased I will purchase in place of the diesel.
My own push is mainly from an environmental view. I think the particle discharge from diesels in towns has a detremental effect on health.
RE will become very mainstream in electricity generation. Even in the last few days the tech of salt/fresh water ion transfer looks to have really amazing potential.
I think the view that all cars will be electric by 2030 is probably right.
I think it was Brian Cox showed two famous photographs of a street in New York taken in 1903 and 1913. Both are full of traffic. In the first there is one car, all others are horse drawn. The second has all cars and only one horse drawn vechicle.
I can see EV's would not suit a section that drive long distances and unexpected trips ATM. Others it would easily suit.

1,162 views and 127 votes !!!

traco

Interesting poll but as said its multiple issues that need to be weighted to make it really useful.

Personally the Tesala is the only real contender but the price is off the scale to be practical. Next issue is resale, I have posted previously but the value of these cars is the battery and the data on these is too vague at present to make an informed decision.

I know there are loads of talk about reusing, recycling, etc etc but looking at electric forklifts unless they have a new battery they are a very dodgy buy secondhand. In fact you would be better buying the truck with a dead battery and basing ten price on the cost of a new battery and controller.

The other issue I see as they become more common will be public charging points. Just think of the number of pumps available for ICE refuelling at present and that take 10 mins. Now imagine a big uptake in electric and an hours charge time. Will we have the infrastructure to support volume charging that is not home based in the near to medium term future?

jca

I was strongly considering an EV as my next car but I think all the forward planning needed for an out of range journey would quickly become tiresome. Its very difficult to get beginner type info about the different charging types, DC fast charge, ac fast charge etc, I couldn't see Mrs A being happy about having to wait for charging either. No, I think I'll play it safe and go for a nice top spec Auris Hybrid, some very nice 2013-14 ones to be got in the UK, the low vrt helps too.

Water John

Would not disagree with you jca. It is a change and for some, for various reasons, a wait for better tech is not a poor option.

On the other hand there will be a time to make the leap. For example, I cannot understand a person buying a new ride on lawnmower when there are well proven robotic models out there at the same or cheaper.
Similarly, some dairy farmers putting up very expensive milking parlours when they should probably putting in robotic milking.

There is a time to jump. That may be early for some and later for others.
From the poll it looks like about 1/4 to 1/3 would never make the leap but it also means 2/3 to 3/4 might.

Del2005

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Most of our electricity comes from Gas, and 20% Coal the rest from wind and Nuclear from the U.K.

There is substantial wind generation on windy days/nights up to 50% and growing.

They need to add solar PV to the mix.

And how many gas stations have to be ran inefficiently so we can get 50% wind? Till base load backup is resolved renewable only benefits the installers, it's unreliable and forces inefficient use of power stations. Look at the chaos that Germany's "green power" revolution causes it's neighbours.

multiple choice was deliberately left out to establish the ultimate reasons people will not buy an EV. And it's becoming clear as I thought.

I'l like a lot more people to vote.If I could only get people from the non motors section of Boards.

kyote00

Are Range, Battery Life and Recharge times not really the same thing ?

All academic really - if you believe the nerds....
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/driving-cars-illegal-2030

kyote00

kyote00 wrote: »

Are Range, Battery Life and Recharge times not really the same thing ?

All academic really - if you believe the nerds....
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/driving-cars-illegal-2030

No they're not the same thing at all.

I doubt they'll ban driving any time soon. That's a mental statement to make.

Water John

Yes, there still cars, whether there autonomous or not.
However, another aspect tied to that is the view that most people living in urban areas would no longer own a car. Just call one up whenever they need one.
But the car will be electric.

GustavoFring

Deleted User wrote: »

1,162 views and 127 votes !!!

Well the poll is flawed in allowing only one choice and after voting I was sorry that I did as my vote wasn't a true reflection of my opinion so it's to be expected.

ianobrien

I think the poll is flawed by allowing one option only. The main factors would be range, battery life and recharge times. At the moment, ICE has a better range and is quicker to refill. I don't have to worry about the tank wearing out.

pwurple

ianobrien wrote: »

I think the poll is flawed by allowing one option only. The main factors would be range, battery life and recharge times. At the moment, ICE has a better range and is quicker to refill. I don't have to worry about the tank wearing out.

There is the equivalent of engine wear though.. No spark plugs, timing belts etc in an electric motor, so in theory they should last longer than your traditional combustion engine, plus considerably less maintenance.

Hard to prove in new tech though. Won't have good chunks of real life data for another decade or so, but I'm planning on driving mine into the ground, followed by giving it to the kids.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

multiple choice was deliberately left out to establish the ultimate reasons people will not buy an EV. And it's becoming clear as I thought.

I'l like a lot more people to vote.If I could only get people from the non motors section of Boards.

Clear you've been told the answer many times but denied it each time

_Kaiser_

Deleted User wrote: »

multiple choice was deliberately left out to establish the ultimate reasons people will not buy an EV. And it's becoming clear as I thought.

I'l like a lot more people to vote.If I could only get people from the non motors section of Boards.

It's pretty simple...

- They're expensive and as yet unknown how they'll last in the 2nd hand market
- Lack of infrastructure and take longer than 3 minutes (average petrol/diesel fill time) to fully charge
- Range issues
- Most of them are ugly and cheap-feeling, unless you want to pay higher premiums again

I dare say the majority of "non motors" Boards folks would feel the same way

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's pretty simple...

- They're expensive and as yet unknown how they'll last in the 2nd hand market
- Lack of infrastructure and take longer than 3 minutes (average petrol/diesel fill time) to fully charge
- Range issues
- Most of them are ugly and cheap-feeling, unless you want to pay higher premiums again

I dare say the majority of "non motors" Boards folks would feel the same way

The Leaf for instance isn't more expensive than your average diesel hatch.

Range is an issue for a lot of people, yes.

Infrastructure is pretty good but could always be better.

Recharge times, for now they're slow enough but the 30 Kwh leaf charges faster than the 24 Kwh leaf. This will improve with every generation. It's possible the Leaf II and other longer range electrics in 2018 will charge above 100 Kw compared to 45 Kw today.

Battery life uncertainty remains but currently for current 24 Kwh leaf is looking positive, larger batteries will last much , much longer because they will be less stressed.

If you can have 300-350 kms from home, this is a lot of range suitable for a lot more people, this will be available in 1.5 years, the cost remains unknown. So the dependency on public charging would be a lot less and some people will put up with it if it's only a couple of times a year they need beyond 300 kms range in one day. If you can charge over twice as fast that certainly helps.

Big improvements are on the way but you won't keep everyone happy.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Clear you've been told the answer many times but denied it each time

You're wrong Ted, I never said range isn't an Issue, what I did say is that electrics even in their current form are suitable for a lot more people than they think.

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

multiple choice was deliberately left out to establish the ultimate reasons people will not buy an EV.

Nope. Multiple choice was left out in order to skew the poll results the way you wanted them, ie away from the issue of public charging.

Firstly most of the general non EV driving public are not aware of the charges that the ESB tried to bring in. Most would probably only become aware one they research the possibility of buying electric. THEN it would become an issue.

So listing it as an option in a single choice poll alongside the obvious deterrents like range is an easy way for you to claim that people don't mind the ESB charges, which you of course are fully supportive of.

It's like listing Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler and asking who is a horrible dictator and only allowing one choice.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've no agenda in this Poll or thread.

Yes you do, as stated above.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not a member of any organisation

Are you not a member of the Irish EV owners Association?

An association who have consultations with the ESB and other parties even though they only represent a tiny minority of Irish EV owners? And one who support esb charges? An organisation who would probably cheerfully pronounce your poll results as proof that charges for public charging are not a deterrent for potential buyers?

No DrphilG, you just can't accept hard data. just keep waffling for the sake of it. The data is clear.

I support charging for the network, absolutely.

I'm not a paying member of the group and nothing to do with anything that happens with the ESB or anything else. I'm not a committee member !!!

The fact is you and others think that the proposed ESB charges are what has made EV sales drop this year. It's clear from above this is not the case. Whether people are aware of the proposed charges or not is irrelevant, the fact is if people are thinking to buy ev the range is the main issue which is clear from above but ignore it all you want. I don't know why you're so obsessed the ESB are responsible for the drop in sales. It could also be people are waiting for the longer range electrics due in 2018.

It's clear you clicked on the "proposed charges" option in the Poll because it's only since you came to the thread that it changed from 5-6. you have your own agenda.

XR3i

nobody wants an electric car cos there a load of sh1te i.m.o.

for example i got unintentionally invovled in a bit of a road race there the last day, it was me in my '97 vento v's some absloute head case in a bentley, when he hit the 100mph mark i gracefully retired from the race

jca

Hmmmm, this seemingly innocuous thread has taken a sinister turn in my belief.
Are you a member of The Irish EV association (committee or otherwise)?
Why are you in agreement with the ESB charging for use of the EV network?

jca

XR3i wrote: »

nobody wants an electric car cos there a load of sh1te i.m.o.

for example i got unintentionally invovled in a bit of a road race there the last day, it was me in my '97 vento v's some absloute head case in a bentley, when he hit the 100mph mark i gracefully retired from the race

What has punching above your weight got to do with EV's?

jca

jca wrote: »

Hmmmm, this seemingly innocuous thread has taken a sinister turn in my belief.
Are you a member of The Irish EV association (committee or otherwise)?
Why are you in agreement with the ESB charging for use of the EV network?

Because it promotes abuse and people are using them for their own personal usage. I don't care about that but I do care when I need to use the chargers and some local is using it instead of their home charge point and even knowing I got a long drive and need it they just walk away because they want to use it for the free electricity.

Yes I am a member of the Irish EV Association, is that a problem ? how is that sinister ?

I never said the proposed Charge point charges was perfect. But there needs to be some kind of billing for their usage.

Some people in the EV section here on Boards kept going on about how it's the proposed ESB charges that have been the cause of the reduced EV sales this year and I said it was BS but they insisted and asked where is the proof that I'm talking through my arse so here is proof above, this is why I said I would not have multiple choice because I wanted to prove what the "main" reason was and there it is above but even at that some people ignore the results and say the poll is crap but I didn't do the voting. And continue to believe it's the result of the proposed ESB charges last year that they're somehow not buying because of the uncertainty of these charges and that ultimately it's the ESB responsible for the reduced EV sales.

Anyway there's no hidden agenda here but please keep voting, the more the merrier. And if the data can be used for something good then all the better.

ianobrien

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not a member of any organisation , Government or Media.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I am a member of the Irish EV Association, is that a problem ? how is that sinister ?

This is not helping your cause one bit, as well as your refusal to acknowledge that the reasons may be multiple in nature. I have pointed out its multiple reasons for me, along with other posters. You could be seen by some as doing a disservice to EV by your almost militant shouting for EV and failure to listen to what you are being told. For me, the preaching is just "meh" but the subject is something to learn about.

thierry14

Mad lad

How are you going to react when your 300-350km affordable EV's don't arrive to these shores in 2018?

It's all speculation at the minute and your talking like it's set in stone!

Need to tone it down a bit.

When they do arrive, eg 350km range for 20-25k with 150 - 200bhp or so I will buy one.

Can't wait to get a hot hatch EV

Something like a Focus with 250bhp/500nm and 350km range for 25k would be perfect for me

That will be 2020 or so

Come back in a few years with a new poll Mad Lad

EV's are not there yet

DrPhilG

First of all, I didn't vote. I'm sure a mod who has access to who voted what way can clarify that. The poll asks what your main reason is IF you don't intend to buy electric next. I do intend to buy electric, so I didn't vote.

Secondly, I also do support charging for charging. It funds the upkeep of the network and deters people from using chargers unnecessarily.

That said, I (along with the vast majority of EV drivers in Ireland) felt that the proposed charges were hugely unfair and disproportionate. I also believe that the ESB show an unacceptable level of incompetence in managing the network. Chargers out of action for years at a time, maps not updated to show faults despite being informed by users.

And yet some BS artists in the Association praise the ESB at every twist and turn.

Anyway the point being, this poll is nonsense and this has been pointed out by many of those who did vote because they wanted to add other votes but couldn't. The poll is designed to give a particular answer, and it is doing so.

Congrats.

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

how is that sinister ?

In itself it may not be, but when you feel the need to lie about it maybe it is.

Firstly...

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not a member of any organisation

Then changing to...

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not a paying member of the group

Can you be a member if you don't pay your €10 membership fee?

And finally the admission...

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes I am a member of the Irish EV Association

Then to top it off, you say you don't have an agenda in this poll, yet you admit that you were not unbiased when you created it. You already had one vote that you believed in so it's no surprise when the flawed poll supports you.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And it's becoming clear as I thought.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

No DrphilG, you just can't accept hard data. just keep waffling for the sake of it.

I wondered what that loud bang was after midnight. It was the boom of irony breaking the sound barrier.

You are an obsessive about these cars. If you're getting paid to be then game ball and fair play, if you're not it's all a bit odd Ted.

newcavanman

Could never stand electric vehicles, always thought they reminded me of horrible cars. Last week I was working in the uk and I saw a Tesla S. It is the first good looking electric car I have ever seen

DrPhilG

Wibbs wrote: »

If you're getting paid to be then game ball and fair play, if you're not it's all a bit odd Ted.

Just to clarify in case I'm accused of mud slinging, I do not believe that Mad Lad is being paid for this agenda. In case that is what is being taken from my comments.

I'm simply saying that the poll is flawed to produce a particular outcome, and that was the intention in its creation.

mfceiling

I really like the idea of an electric car but it's early days for us a family too.

When we see the range on our trip telling us we have less than 200 kms then it's off for a fill of diesel.

When you can get a range of closer to 400 kms then it could be a deal changer. We also need to get thousands more charging points to alleviate the problem of worrying of coming to a standstill.

Keep the faith madlad....we're not there yet but who knows what will be available in 5 years time.

DrPhilG

I'll also say my bit in defence of the EV.

I don't consider the Leaf a particularly ugly car, nor a particular attractive one. Same for the Zoe, which is no different than the average small hatch imo.

I don't have any burning environmental reason for going electric either.

I bought for financial reasons only.

My last diesel was a 2 year old Peugeot 308 with 19k miles and it cost me €15,500.

My Leaf was 1 year old with 5k miles and cost the equivalent (I bought in England) of €18,300.

That's not what I would call drastically more expensive.

In my first year of EV ownership I saved £1760. That's over €2k. In one year. Even if the ESB charges had come in at the stupid rates they proposed, I would still have saved about €1400 a year at least.

So don't dismiss EVs folks. They are not suitable for everyone depending on their driving needs, but they are suitable for many whether they realise it or not.

And yes planning is needed, but I drove from Donegal to Cork via Dublin in my first 2 weeks of EV ownership without a hitch so it's not difficult.

And like I said, €2k a year...

Anyway, back on topic, the poll is nonsense.

Oafley Jones

Shouldn't this just be closed. It's obvious to all bar one that it's a joke. To say it was for education and research is dishonest.

I don't think mad_lad is being paid either... If you were paying someone you'd be wanting them to a semi decent job. I just he's extremely misguided at best and detrimental to EVs at worse. I know people who work in the field and the topic of ML has come up. The consensus was that the best thing he could do for EVs is to drive them, but otherwise to STFU about them.

I do not pay any membership fees, im simply on the Facebook group, big deal. I don't attend any committee meetings and this has nothing to do with the FB group. That's like saying I'm on boards.ie.

To say this poll is a joke is ridiculous. It's quiet clear above that it's not a joke. If I only wanted to promote electrics I would have created a very different poll, I certainly didn't create it in the hope I it would improve ev sales.

People have successfully turned this into something it wasn't intended to be.

I can't win either way here on boards, really. It's actually depressing.

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I certainly didn't create it in the hope I it would improve ev sales

I didn't say that you did.

You created it to get stats to support your beliefs that charging for charging is not an issue for people and the results of the poll (surprise surprise) support that opinion.

Hence your post here in the EV section of boards where the poor recent sales of EVs was the topic.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057337537/7/#post100380015

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So from this poll (so far) it looks like Public charger costs are not the main cause of concern for potential EV buyers.

So there's my data !!!

This poll was created simply to give you data to win an argument using unsuspecting ICE drivers as your Guinea pigs.