Electric car poll

slave1

Seriously looking at a Leaf towards the end of the year, what with sterling dropping and essentially no VRT they are well worth it given herself's driving pattern

bladespin

bladespin wrote: »

Not at anything remotely near the rate a battery degrades at, there are plenty of million mile engines still running.

Nothing against ev's but just being realistic, I doubt it will be long until there's a battery or capacitor capable of the same.

You're quiet correct but there are not many people that drive an ICE for 1 million miles. And there are not many ICE cars that drive for 1 million miles without significant fuel costs and maintenance.

As battery capacity increases there are far less stresses on the battery so if you got a 300+ Km battery, then by the time the car becomes unusable will be significant mileage. Drop in a new battery in 15 years and you're good to go again. Battery costs are a lot less today than for instance when the first leaf was produced.

slave1

slave1 wrote: »

Seriously looking at a Leaf towards the end of the year, what with sterling dropping and essentially no VRT they are well worth it given herself's driving pattern

I assume then you're looking to buy 2nd hand ? if so then seriously consider the 30 Kwh, more range and it charges faster from the fast chargers.

slave1

Deleted User wrote: »

I assume then you're looking to buy 2nd hand ? if so then seriously consider the 30 Kwh, more range and it charges faster from the fast chargers.

Agreed but pricing at the minute high and the UK has the battery lease arrangement which is something I need to avoid when looking at pricing, late 2014/early 2015 best from an economic perspective.
Looking at €10k to my door including all checks, transport and zero VRT versus around €17k second hand here

I don't get you when you talk about battery lease ? I understand it's available but why bring it up of you are not looking for a leased battery ?

Yes at 10 K you won't yet find a 30 Kwh.

Just make sure you're aware of the limitations, that is, you need to be near a fast charger or AC point by 110 kms travelling at 100-110 kph max. It will take 30-40 mins to bring the Leaf from 18-80%. Strong headwinds and lots of rain will reduce range more and so will sub zero temps but an average Irish winter isn't that hard on a range with the Heat pump heating system which is only standard and only available in the Mid and Top spec leaf. Charging beyond 80% in the 24 Kwh is slow and if you can make your next destination at 80% then don't keep waiting for 90% etc. You'd probably be quicker reducing your speed.

I would highly advise the 6.6 Kw AC charger because it can charge a lot faster from the standard non fast charge points which is very convenient and can mean several trips less to the fast charger. Plug in in town at an AC point and there could be more than enough charge to get back.

You should find many U.K leafs with the 6.6 Kw charger and it won't really cost much extra 2nd hand if anything extra at all, one of the most useful options on a Leaf.

The Leaf is quiet enjoyable to drive and you won't go back to ICE in a hurry.

slave1

The reason I mentioned the lease is that a lot of UK cars for sale are on a battery lease agreement and this is built into the (cheaper) price so I have to trail through the description to eliminate "cheaper" used cars with monthly lease costs that I do not want.
Charger at home is not an issue, I'll purchase and fit myself and get a RECI to just make the fuse box connection, also already on a night rate meter so looking at overnight charging.
The wife rarely does long miles and if required we can just switch cars for the day as my commute is well within the range and is a fixed commute.

oinkely

slave1 wrote: »

The reason I mentioned the lease is that a lot of UK cars for sale are on a battery lease agreement and this is built into the (cheaper) price so I have to trail through the description to eliminate "cheaper" used cars with monthly lease costs that I do not want.
Charger at home is not an issue, I'll purchase and fit myself and get a RECI to just make the fuse box connection, also already on a night rate meter so looking at overnight charging.
The wife rarely does long miles and if required we can just switch cars for the day as my commute is well within the range and is a fixed commute.

You won't regret it. We bought a 24kw with the standard 3.3kw charger in April and have 6000km on it since then. Bought a 132 one shortly afterwards too to prevent the 'who gets the short straw and has to drive the poxy ICE to work today ' arguments. Between the two of them we are at about 9000km, which is €900 that we haven't had to pour into the diesel ICE. We both much prefer the EV, still have the diesel ICE crewcab for towing the caravan, but it sits outside the house at least 4 days in the week.

Oafley Jones

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The cost of electricity won't rise if a lot of people change to EV, in fact if anything the cost will drop as electricity providers suddenly scramble to get as many customers who are now going to use up to 3 times their house consumption or more

You just broke the law of supply and demand.

BoatMad

bladespin wrote: »

Not at anything remotely near the rate a battery degrades at, there are plenty of million mile engines still running.

Nothing against ev's but just being realistic, I doubt it will be long until there's a battery or capacitor capable of the same.

yes but rather like the Triggers brush in fool and horses, they have 10 new handles and 4 new heads

in time there will be a big aftermarket in replacement battery packs, then you'll see two million mile EVS !!!!

bladespin

BoatMad wrote:

yes but rather like the Triggers brush in fool and horses, they have 10 new handles and 4 new heads

Not really, I've had 2 that I got close to 300k miles on without any major work or big part replacement, it can be done. Our company had a pool car with 550k on it when we sold it too.

As batteries get larger in the amount of energy they can store, (Kwh) the need to replace batteries will not really exist.

They will last much longer for a few reasons,

1 they will be cycled much , much less as range reaches 500 Kms or so even a 30% loss in range won't have a major impact. Most people will not use the full range for more than a few times a year.

2 Chemistry improvements.

Eric Cartman

BoatMad wrote: »

in time there will be a big aftermarket in replacement battery packs, then you'll see two million mile EVS !!!!

considering what happens cheap chinese phone and laptop batteries , Id imagine we'll be seeing a huge scandal when a child is fireballed to death in the back seat of a leaf in a few years.

If you see what happened in the U.S regarding aftermarket Prius conversions to lithium and the companies that provided the battery upgrades I'd be highly cautious of any after market battery company supplying non OEM batteries. A lot of people lost a lot of money and some companies went bust.

It would have to be at the very least a very well established company with a very good reputation and warranty support.

Water John

Is this what some are waiting for?

http://www.wheels.ca/news/nissan-bladeglider-debuts-rio/

This is a real Bladeglider not a Bladespin.

Eric Cartman

looks like the sinclair C5's big brother.

bladespin

The ugly one 😑

Why are they struggling so badly to design a good looking ev? Apart from the Tesla of course.

Honeslty the concept appeals but the range offered is useless for me, I can cover 800km in a day.

Water John

Its a concept car. Elements of it will make the production line of their vehicles.
I suspect that 200Kw battery would do the 800km for you.

bladespin

That would be great, certainly make one an option for me.
I considered the Mitty hybrid last year but didn't pull the trigger.

200 Kw is the power capability "Kwh" is the energy stored in the battery, 200 Kwh is a substantial battery and I doubt they meant 200 Kwh.

thierry14

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Why would you want a manual EV it completely defeats the purpose of having an electric car.

For the Top speed

Nearly all the EVs run out of revs very early, hence crap top end power.

Tesla I think rev to 18000rpm with the 1 gear, it would have to rev a lot higher to match equivalent 700bhp ice motors like V12 Aventadors which tops out at over 200mph

That's why they put a gear box in that EV that set a top speed record in the video

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

For the Top speed

Nearly all the EVs run out of revs very early, hence crap top end power.

Tesla I think rev to 18000rpm with the 1 gear, it would have to rev a lot higher to match equivalent 700bhp ice motors like V12 Aventadors which tops out at over 200mph

That's why they put a gear box in that EV that set a top speed record in the video

The leaf maxes out at a limited 164 Kph clock speed, and it gets there as you would expect from a 104 HP car or any car with 80 Kw of power and the leaf is pretty heavy. But it't not a slow car.

You want more power to go faster, you need more Kw not a manual gearbox. Gears are not necessary with an EV.

Having said that, Nissan could easily loose some low down torque for a more mid to top end power, they would need to alter the motor controller software and the windings in the motor and the ratio of the reduction gear. Or use a star delta configuration which is kind of an electronic gear. Not sure how this would work in an EV.

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The leaf maxes out at a limited 164 Kph clock speed, and it gets there as you would expect from a 104 HP car or any car with 80 Kw of power and the leaf is pretty heavy. But it't not a slow car.

You want more power to go faster, you need more Kw not a manual gearbox. Gears are not necessary with an EV.

Having said that, Nissan could easily loose some low down torque for a more mid to top end power, they would need to alter the motor controller software and the windings in the motor and the ratio of the reduction gear. Or use a star delta configuration which is kind of an electronic gear. Not sure how this would work in an EV.

It's not kW that gives top speed.

In a EV with a single gear you need higher rpm or more gears for higher top speed

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

It's not kW that gives top speed.

In a EV with a single gear you need higher rpm or more gears for higher top speed

Top speed is limited by the motor controller software all the gears won't change that, without the limiter I'm not sure what it's top limit would be.

Are you talking about the top speed or power available at higher speeds ?

Higher RPM will mean the motor will run out of it's efficiency zone due to back EMF and the gear or as it would effectively be, a gear box, would reduce efficiency further, you need a clutch etc, adding a cvt would be better but reducing efficiency. Having all that torque instantly would be pretty tough on any clutch or gearbox, it would also add to the expense of the car.

You could add more voltage, more voltage allows a higher rpm , more current allows more torque all this = more Kw needed. Though the battery can output more power in the form of torque or current, it can't output more voltage. So you would need to reconfigure the battery for more voltage and most likely the motor controller.

I think the leaf does pretty well for the 104 Hp it has. It goes all the way to the 164 Kph clock speed pretty comfortably ( so I heard ) :pac:

It has a lot of torque or acceleration compared to an ICE for 0-90 Kph say, and after that it has less but still pretty decent for the weight of the car.

This is the efficiency of the Leaf motor which is pretty damn good.

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Top speed is limited by the motor controller software all the gears won't change that, without the limiter I'm not sure what it's top limit would be.

Are you talking about the top speed or power available at higher speeds ?

Higher RPM will mean the motor will run out of it's efficiency zone due to back EMF and the gear or as it would effectively be, a gear box, would reduce efficiency further, you need a clutch etc, adding a cvt would be better but reducing efficiency. Having all that torque instantly would be pretty tough on any clutch or gearbox, it would also add to the expense of the car.

You could add more voltage, more voltage allows a higher rpm , more current allows more torque all this = more Kw needed. Though the battery can output more power in the form of torque or current, it can't output more voltage. So you would need to reconfigure the battery for more voltage and most likely the motor controller.

I think the leaf does pretty well for the 104 Hp it has. It goes all the way to the 164 Kph clock speed pretty comfortably ( so I heard ) :pac:

It has a lot of torque or acceleration compared to an ICE for 0-90 Kph say, and after that it has less but still pretty decent for the weight of the car.

Top speed in the leaf is limited by the rpm, it can only go to 10k, boost that to 12k and it would probably do 115-120mph like every other 104hp ice car.

We will see gears in EVs in the future, probably in the Hypercar/ supercar versions initially.

A starter gear for acceleration off the line and a second gear for top end, kinda like formula E

It's not efficient having a single gear running at 18k rpm @ 130mph like in Teslas

Tesla have looked into 2 speed boxes before for that reason.

They say the electric motor in your leaf is at its most efficient at 3k - 5k rpm ( about 30 - 50mph ) a second gear in theory could keep the leaf in the sweet spot at ( 60 - 80 mph ) minus drag

I don't think we will have single speed boxes long term, absorbing the torque is the problem at the moment, just speculating btw, I am sure an engineer will quote me and tell me I am wrong though

Mooooo

By the time any issues are ironed out with ev's will hydrogen fuel cells be the new thing?

IF the Leaf is limited by the fixed gear then you would need more voltage, more voltage will give more rpm and more rpm = less efficiency.

A gearbox will reduce efficiency so it's kind of caching your tail on that one.

There's still no reason the motor can't be rewound for less torque and higher rpm if it's more top speed you're looking for though whether to gain an extra 20 kph for about 184 clock speed for less 0-60 would be justified is another matter, they could increase the current to compensate but that would require more Kw.

Either way whatever you do you will sacrifice efficiency, the only way I see gearboxes in electrics would be as you say for high performance cars with big ass batteries but I think most people are happy with with the acceleration of for instance the I3 or GM Bolt, the bolt will have 200 hp, twice that of the Leaf.

Mooooo

Mooooo wrote: »

By the time any issues are ironed out with ev's will hydrogen fuel cells be the new thing?

Hydrogen production is hugely energy intensive, charging batteries isn't. Batteries perform better today than fuel cells and the Model S for instance can go further. Hydrogen may see uses in heavy goods vehicles etc but I doubt it.

I was beating up the M9 today and the Leaf has plenty of shove to 130-140 Kph, certainly more than capable of keeping up with traffic, for something with 104 Hp it's not bad at all, I'd certainly love to drive an I3 with 170 HP which is lighter and a GM Bolt/Opel Ampera-E with 200 Hp.

Water John

Setting targets.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/dutch-lay-plans-for-combustion-engine-ban-from-2025-1.2757955

There may not be a choice in 10/15 years.

I love the Quote Fiat-Chrysler boss.

"There is nothing Tesla do that we cannot also do."

Lol , if that's true then do it , muppets !

Car companies will try maximise profits form ICE tech because they're lazy and greedy.

Look what VW now have to spend on emissions fines in the U.S , that 13 or so Billion would have gone a hell of a long way to creating a Model S Killer or electrifying their entire fleet but they chose the route of maximum profit.

slave1

Deleted User wrote: »

I love the Quote Fiat-Chrysler boss.

"There is nothing Tesla do that we cannot also do."

Lol , if that's true then do it , muppets !

Car companies will try maximise profits form ICE tech because they're lazy and greedy.

Look what VW now have to spend on emissions fines in the U.S , that 13 or so Billion would have gone a hell of a long way to creating a Model S Killer or electrifying their entire fleet but they chose the route of maximum profit deception.

Agree with you buddy but adjusted your comment

Water John

http://www.thejournal.ie/smartphone-lithium-metal-battery-2935175-Aug2016/

That is an update on one of the technologies. Doubling capacity.

bertie4evr

Water John wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/smartphone-lithium-metal-battery-2935175-Aug2016/

That is an update on one of the technologies. Doubling capacity.

I'll believe it when they're being made at some scale. There are stories every year about new battery technologies (aluminium-air, lithium-ceramic, etc.) that store this many times more than lithium-ion, but they never get off the ground.

Lithium Air is still in development but promises the greatest potential. Current tech is good enough for now, once you reach 300-350 kms this is a game changer. The greatest challenge at this point is cost and weight. The heavier the car the less efficient. Oh and I nearly forgot, faster charging is also crucial. I could live with current Tesla super charger speeds of about 170 miles in 30 mins if I can start out with 300-340 kms super charger power would get me another 275 kms.

bertie4evr

Deleted User wrote: »

Lithium Air is still in development but promises the greatest potential. Current tech is good enough for now, once you reach 300-350 kms this is a game changer. The greatest challenge at this point is cost and weight. The heavier the car the less efficient. Oh and I nearly forgot, faster charging is also crucial. I could live with current Tesla super charger speeds of about 170 miles in 30 mins if I can start out with 300-340 kms super charger power would get me another 275 kms.

I don't think current tech is good enough for now. That's what everyone in this thread has been saying, the range isn't enough and the charge times are too long.

This push towards electric cars is turning more people away than towards them because all they see are expensive, ugly, and inconvenient cars.

Now I know why they are how they are. Batteries and new tech are expensive, they need to look how they do for aerodynamics and again, batteries are limited to how fast they can charge. But most people don't care! They want a car that looks good and that they can get into and go without thinking about it and planning their journeys around the hope that a charger isn't out of order.

Speaking of chargers, how long do you think it will be before Ireland of all places gets a large network of them, let alone Superchargers!

bertie4evr

bertie4evr wrote: »

I don't think current tech is good enough for now. That's what everyone in this thread has been saying, the range isn't enough and the charge times are too long.

This push towards electric cars is turning more people away than towards them because all they see are expensive, ugly, and inconvenient cars.

Now I know why they are how they are. Batteries and new tech are expensive, they need to look how they do for aerodynamics and again, batteries are limited to how fast they can charge. But most people don't care! They want a car that looks good and that they can get into and go without thinking about it and planning their journeys around the hope that a charger isn't out of order.

Speaking of chargers, how long do you think it will be before Ireland of all places gets a large network of them, let alone Superchargers!

Yeah I know most people care about range that's why I said the 300-340 km range electrics due in 2018 are a game changer, not everyone will be happy but it opens the door to a lot more people.

The technology is good enough today, the problem is cost, yes it can always be better. Recharge times are not as much of an issue with a 300 km range as with the current 120-150 kms electrics.

The current Leaf 24 Kwh is not extremely expensive compared to many diesels, the 30 Kwh is more expensive yes true. But your fuel is very cheap, depending on the kms you drive could pay back.

The current network is pretty good and the AC network is especially useful, the BMW i3 with the upgraded battery has now got an 11 Kw charger and that is very useful at non fast chargers. You don't always need to charge at 120 Kw.

I find the 6.6 Kw AC charger in the leaf most useful, it's saved me waiting at fast chargers on many occasions, come back to the car and have enough to get home. 11 Kw would be a lot better.

The Renault Zoe can charge at 22 Kw from these charge points !!!

Padraig Mor

bertie4evr wrote: »

Speaking of chargers, how long do you think it will be before Ireland of all places gets a large network of them, let alone Superchargers!

Ireland's network is actually pretty good (standard charge points) and reasonable (fast charge points) - in theory anyway. I've done 24000km in the last year in my Leaf without any particular issue anyway. However, there are definite issues around painting of spots in certain areas (i.e. ensuring availability for EVs) and, recently, maintenance. A charger is no good if it's broken or there's a normal car parked there!

The greatest issue is the lack of sufficient DC chargers for the busiest locations at peak times.

The AC network is pretty good though they could always have more, the AC network is not going to grow any time soon because the ESB feel that 22 KW points are a waste when only the I3 and the Model S with optional dual 10 Kw chargers can charge at the max rate. However the I3 with upgraded charger will have an 11 Kw charger, even the 6.6 Kw charger in the leaf makes a big difference.

Plugging in at AC points frees up DC chargers and also means with 6.6 Kw and higher chargers that you can get a decent charger in 1-2 hrs which could be enough to get home or to the next destination.

Electrics with 3.3 Kw chargers make for very inefficient use of these brilliant charge points because they take a lot longer to charge this is why I would like to see a 2-3 hr max usage imposed.

Bump.

More votes needed please.

Sh1tbag OToole

I hope everyone converts to electric cars quick.

More petrol left for me to burn

jca

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Bump.

More votes needed please.

Why? You have your answer you can go ahead and push for charging ev drivers to use the public chargers now. Mission accomplished.

DrPhilG

jca wrote: »

Why? You have your answer you can go ahead and push for charging ev drivers to use the public chargers now. Mission accomplished.

Spot on.

What this thread has concluded is that the poll is fatally flawed, and only created to fuel (pardon the pun) one person's agenda.

Fatally flawed my arse, just because others don't agree with the facts or perhaps doesn't fit in with their own agendas !!!

jca

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fatally flawed my arse, just because others don't agree with the facts or perhaps doesn't fit in with their own agendas !!!

Just keep it for the the elite eh? People like you put others off getting an EV. Wouldn't want the plebs hogging those free chargers now would we?

bertie4evr

jca wrote: »

Just keep it for the the elite eh? Guys like you put people off getting an EV

Fixed!

I'd consider an EV in the future only I'd be terrified of being stuck at a charger next to Mad Lad.

bertie4evr

bertie4evr wrote: »

Fixed!

I'd consider an EV in the future only I'd be terrified of being stuck at a charger next to Mad Lad.

Why's that?

jca

jca wrote: »

Just keep it for the the elite eh? Guys like you put people off getting an EV

Guys like me? What do you mean?

"Guys" how American like "like" lol.

jca

bertie4evr wrote: »

Fixed!

I'd consider an EV in the future only I'd be terrified of being stuck at a charger next to Mad Lad.

Thanks.

axe2grind

Main reason is lack of suitable car for my needs, MPV (not in poll options)
Nearest of the current lot is Kangoo and ENV200.

Kangoo ZE doesn't have fast charge, env200 needs double the battery (min 40kwh) to consider it. I think it's little more than a van with seats and I currently have a diesel Kangoo.

So range is also a significant issue. I don't commute but as a family we do about 30,000 km a year, but lots of random journey away from the major highways with probably an above average occurrence of journeys in excess of 200km. For many of these journeys a detour would have to be made to get to fast charger.

I had a leaf on trial, great drive, but awful for family car and the kids (12, 8 & 3) hated it.