Wondering about a friend's doggy dynamic...

Raminahobbin

Out of curiosity... I have a friend with 2 dogs: A Caucasian Ovcharka (Male, 8/9 months old) and an Alaskan Malamute (Female, 5 years old).

He had a GS, which he lost to old age before Christmas, and adopted the Caucasian in January as company for the Malamute.

It took the Malamute a while to warm up to the new dog, but they became friends pretty soon after the new pup was brought in, and will now play together and do seem happy most of the time.

The owners' concern is that the play sometimes goes a bit...full on, and that something seems to have changed with the Malamute. She's a little less tolerant, a little more inclined to be defensive, and there's an edge to her now.

I've only been around the dogs 3 times: first time (when the new pup was 11 weeks and had only been there a couple of days) she wouldn't come near me. Second time (when the new pup was 4 months) she was much more relaxed and would let me pet her. Third time (pup was 8 months) she was definitely standoffish, but when I sat down at the table she would come over and let me pet her AS LONG AS I didn't make eye contact. If I did, I could feel her stiffen, so I didn't push past that and I stopped the eye contact.

She can start things with the pup (who is now bigger than her, so saying pup feels weird, lol) by getting into a doggy armwrestling-looking situation where she comes up to his face, baring her teeth and grabbing at the skin around his muzzle- I saw this happen and it's definitely her instigating it. The pup seems unsure and does the same back so they're just mouthing each other with bared teeth, but she hurts him by biting too hard causing him to whimper. Then he defensively retaliates until she backs off. It feels very 'show of force' by her to him. It also *seems* to be sparked by resource guarding- one of the dogs getting attention when the other doesn't, but I'm not sure on that. It has also been sparked in the past by food, to the point that the dogs are now fed separately.

Some other things that were mentioned: She has snapped at a neighbour who tried to pet her through the car window and she apparently won't let the Caucasian look out the car windows as they are driven around.

I was fully prepared to observe behaviour changes in the Caucasian as the dog grew older and see how this manifested, but *so far* he has been incredibly steady, placid, lazy and intelligent. The only real thing that was pointed out was that he has developed a VERY weighty gaze- constantly looks likes he's observing and assessing the situation constantly. He's also huge on energy conservation: will never sit when he can lie down, and isn't mad about going for a walk.

Most of the changes so far have happened with the Malamute- the owners feel she's gotten more unpredictable around other people and in the house. It's at the stage where the owner is installing cameras so he can observe them when he's at work and they're alone, just in case.

I guess what I'm asking here is; can anyone shed some light on what might be happening from the Malamutes point of view? I'm trying to avoid dominance theory talk and I just can't see why the Malamute would be on edge when the Caucasian hasn't really done anything to set her on edge...it's not like she can pick up a book and read about the breed and know what might be ahead of her when he reaches adulthood!! It's obviously something deeper than that.

Any ideas?

Ms Doubtfire1

are both dogs neutered? For anyone who doesn't know- a Caucasian Ovcharka is a Caucasian shephered

Raminahobbin

Female is neutered, Male is getting neutered at the 9 month mark.

Ms Doubtfire1

ok. Generally, the playing of sheppies, mal's and husky can look an awful lot like fighting to anyone not familiar with the breed. The Ovcharka is a huge dog and not prone to fight without real reason. The female will always be the boss of the boy (that is typical female) and he won't have a problem with that I expect. I also presume the female is protective of the 'pup' hence the snapping. In any case I would strongly advise anyone against sticking their hands into a car window when there's dogs inside.The dogs see it as their territory.It's simply silly to risk your fingers. frankly, i don't see anything odd in the way they are behaving a in your description...

Raminahobbin

Re-sending what I wrote it's hard to get it across... it's the sense of slight unease that's there when you're in the same room as them, and I'm really going mainly on the owners comments about how they've noticed a personality shift in the Malamute recently, that they feel she's a bit more on edge and a bit more aggressive.

I'm definitely not used to being around these breeds, I don't encounter them often on their own turf, but the owner of these dogs has had a mix of large mountain/northern breeds all his life and all members of his family have them currently, so he's not a newbie... he's not panicing about the changes, but he's definitely a little worried.

Edit: worried is not the right word either... cautious? He's confident nothing major is going to happen and he's capable of managing issues as they arise, but I'm just curious about the dynamics here, for myself.

Ms Doubtfire1

i think than it's best to see if Muddypaws reads this.She's well experienced with northern breeds. :-)

Knine

Raminahobbin wrote: »

Female is neutered, Male is getting neutered at the 9 month mark.

That is very early for such a large breed of dog who will still be growing. I think the owner should research the issues caused by such early neutering.

BTW you should see my adult Gundog play! It can get extremely boisterous especially if he is playing with another large dog.

muddypaws

How did the malamute get on with the old GSD and was that male or female?

Malamutes unfortunately can have a reputation as not being good with other dogs, usually of the same gender though.

The pup is maturing, so his behaviour is probably changing, even if the humans aren't really noticing it. So the mal may be a bit worried about it, she's had a young dog to play with, now there is a maturing large male living with her. I don't subscribe to dominance, pack theory etc, however, northern breeds are used to being part of a team of dogs, so there does tend to be some sort of hierarchy between them. Not necessarily set in stone, it can be fluid, but it depends on an individual dog's personality really whether they will be a lead dog, team or wheel on a sled dog team. Not all dogs have the confidence to lead a team, but that doesn't mean that they might not take on another dog over a resource they want. So its not alpha as such, but they are breeds that do tend to live with other dogs, and have to work out how to get along together, and what works best. Because of the environment that they have come from, they can be very tough dogs, more so than huskies.

Personally I would keep an eye on it, there is the potential with these two dogs for a fight to turn very, very nasty. So I would let them play, and yes, northern breeds do play very roughly, with a lot of noise, but I would be breaking it up when I think it sounds or looks too rough for my liking. I would also work on impulse control with both dogs, getting them to leave toys, food etc, I would work with them separately. Teaching a dog impulse control can really help them throughout their lives, get them to think before they act, rather than just flying into a situation.

I would agree with Knine and leave it for at least another year before neutering the male.

peasant

From what I've read about flock guardians like the Caucasian, it could be that the pup is slowly starting to sort out what's his to guard and worry about and what isn't.
Caucasians can have a very strong instinct to guard and protect anything in their vicinity. That would mean also to "instruct" and "control" other animals to a certain degree ...something that might not go down too well with a usually very independently minded breed like a Malamute (that was there first also)

Bunnyslippers

I have an ovcharka, he's nearly 5 now and was neutered at 2 as he's a big breed, he was brought up on our last farm as a guard dog, we livestock which he was introduced to from day one, dog wise at the time he was a pup we had 3 older ridgebacks - 2 females and one male all neutered, 2 of which have now died, and a terrier which he lived with quite happily to start with. Once Bear hit maturity at 2 he started to attack the other dogs for no reason, we had a couple of stitch ups at the vets as the ridgebacks didn't stand a chance even from just the warning snaps he gave them, the terrier he's fine with as she's too small to be a threat, he's at the point now if he sees our old female ridgeback and our old rescue spaniel he'd kill them no problem with no provocation or anything, he also doesn't like any strange dogs. He's fine with our cats though but goes for any strange cats! I know a few people who's ovcharkas did the same thing with dogs they grew up with. Mine also doesn't like livestock and will guard against them!

They are a very primitive breed unlike most domestic breeds, they are bred to be totally independent of people, not to please them, and just watch what they are supposed to be guarding and assess what action if any to take! They don't respond to food rewards, praise or toys so are very hard to train like your normal dog breeds, if they don't want to do something they won't and you can't tell them off either as they'll answer back!

Luckily mine is fine with people unless they are not introduced in which case he'll stand either between us and them or sit next to you and watch your reaction so you have to be careful! They are a hard breed to read which maybe why your friends malamute is getting funny about the pup, the fact he's already bigger than her will be threatening for her, it could be a disaster waiting to happen if your friend is not careful as they play like an elephant, they don't realise their size or strength, mine broke a few ribs on our terrier when he was a pup just from swatting her with a paw while playing! If your friends bitch does go for him he will attack and won't forget either so would like us need to keep the dogs separately, a faff but doable!
Don't get me wrong Bear is a great dog and very loyal but although they look cute and fluffy they are not suited to most peoples situations that's why so many are ending up in rescues, they're big as well and very strong, Bear must weigh about 8 stone, so your friend really needs to put a lot of effort into trying to train him while he's Young and be prepared for bust ups as he's got two breeds which often don't get on with other dogs especially if your friends bitch is the sort that won't back down. Neutering may help a bit, I'd leave until he's at least a year old, but I'd say the bitch is just not happy at having to share her space, and pretty soon he probably won't either! He maybe lucky and have one that is dog friendly, they seem to be pretty hit and miss as a breed, but not something he'll find out till he hits 2 or 3. They're lovely dogs but are a working breed rather than a pet!!:)

Knine

Have had several of these at the training classes. They ranged from being very aloof to very nervous. They were quite lazy. They were ok around the other dogs. They appear at some of the shows too. A bit easier to handle then some of the other newer breeds in Ireland - Thai Ridgeback! Some of these should come with a warning!