Management Fees during property sale

Ziggy_Stardust

Hi folks, I'm looking for your thoughts on a small issue I'm having.

I bought an apartment about a year ago and during the course of the sale we were asked to pay for the portion of the management fees which relate to the time from when we take ownership of the apartment. The management fees run from November to October and we were to take ownership in February. The previous owners had paid for the full year of fees so we were asked to pay them for the amount associated with February to October. Roughly 75% of the year. We had no issue with this and paid. The calculation was done by the vendor or their solicitors.

Some time after we moved in we got a letter from the management company detailing the fees for the following year. The letter also detailed the fees for the current year which were lower than what was included in the calculation at the time of sale.

It looks like we paid more than our share in management fees at the time of the sale. In round numbers we were told we had to pay 75%x€2500 when the actual annual fee was only €1500.

I have since queried this with my solicitor who has passed the query on however there has been no response for months now.

Has anyone experienced this before and have any suggestions? It's small money relative to a property sale but it irks me that I can't get an answer.

Thanks Zig.

Askthe EA

Ziggy_Stardust wrote: »

Hi folks, I'm looking for your thoughts on a small issue I'm having.

I bought an apartment about a year ago and during the course of the sale we were asked to pay for the portion of the management fees which relate to the time from when we take ownership of the apartment. The management fees run from November to October and we were to take ownership in February. The previous owners had paid for the full year of fees so we were asked to pay them for the amount associated with February to October. Roughly 75% of the year. We had no issue with this and paid. The calculation was done by the vendor or their solicitors.

Some time after we moved in we got a letter from the management company detailing the fees for the following year. The letter also detailed the fees for the current year which were lower than what was included in the calculation at the time of sale.

It looks like we paid more than our share in management fees at the time of the sale. In round numbers we were told we had to pay 75%x€2500 when the actual annual fee was only €1500.

I have since queried this with my solicitor who has passed the query on however there has been no response for months now.

Has anyone experienced this before and have any suggestions? It's small money relative to a property sale but it irks me that I can't get an answer.

Thanks Zig.

How very odd, surely your solicitor had a copy of the management company fees provided to him? He would have known what the annual fee is and not just accepted the other parties word?

Hazydays123

Some developments also have annual collections towards a sinking fund for significant projects, like having the car park repaved, roof repairs or painting the building.

Ziggy_Stardust

Askthe EA wrote: »

How very odd, surely your solicitor had a copy of the management company fees provided to him? He would have known what the annual fee is and not just accepted the other parties word?

I would have thought so too, admitially I didn't think of checking it at the time, my biggest worry was getting the keys before our landlord chucked us out on the street.

GGTrek

Your solicitor was sloppy during the sale process, he should have asked for written proof from Management Company. Unfortunately my experience with Irish solicitors on conveyancing is not good, I had to push the one I hired several times for more documentation from vendors and even in this way he performed a major sloppiness for one of the properties who could have cost me much more than your error and then 6 months later after I discovered his error he wanted more money to fix it! Irish Solicitors earn little money on conveyancing (because of competition on such a small supply of Irish real estate) and seem to put very little effort. After passing through 3 Irish solicitors I can say that I would do a much better job at conveyancing then them.
Going back to answering your question: if you want to solve the matter quickly skip asking things to your sloppy solicitor (since it is his fault that he did not check the actual documents) and contact directly by phone and email the vendor solicitor (I did it twice in 2014 and solved matters much more quickly), send him a copy of the actual management fees requested by the management companies requesting a return of the difference. The vendor solicitor knows that it is illegal to request more than due and will convince the vendor to return the money (he is probably going to be your best chance to recover the money within a few months).
The alternative is going through the courts, which due to the broken Irish law system, you cannot pursue anything related to a real estate sale through Small Claims Courts even for a few hundred euros like in your case, you will have to hire a solicitor and file a claim to District Court, this will cost you much more, take much more time and be a big hassle.
You could complain to the Law society about the sloppiness of your solicitor, but the Law society complaint process is long and unless your solicitor performed an egregious infraction you have little chance of reaching anything favourable to you.

Ziggy_Stardust

Hazydays123 wrote: »

Some developments also have annual collections towards a sinking fund for significant projects, like having the car park repaved, roof repairs or painting the building.

This I could understand but there's no mention of it in the statement or the minutes from the AGM

Ziggy_Stardust

GGTrek wrote: »

Your solicitor was sloppy during the sale process, he should have asked for written proof from Management Company. Unfortunately my experience with Irish solicitors on conveyancing is not good, I had to push the one I hired several times for more documentation from vendors and even in this way he performed a major sloppiness for one of the properties who could have cost me much more than your error and then 6 months later after I discovered his error he wanted more money to fix it! Irish Solicitors earn little money on conveyancing (because of competition on such a small supply of Irish real estate) and seem to put very little effort. After passing through 3 Irish solicitors I can say that I would do a much better job at conveyancing then them.
Going back to answering your question: if you want to solve the matter quickly skip asking things to your sloppy solicitor (since it is his fault that he did not check the actual documents) and contact directly by phone and email the vendor solicitor (I did it twice in 2014 and solved matters much more quickly), send him a copy of the actual management fees requested by the management companies requesting a return of the difference. The vendor solicitor knows that it is illegal to request more than due and will convince the vendor to return the money (he is probably going to be your best chance to recover the money within a few months).
The alternative is going through the courts, which due to the broken Irish law system, you cannot pursue anything related to a real estate sale through Small Claims Courts even for a few hundred euros like in your case, you will have to hire a solicitor and file a claim to District Court, this will cost you much more, take much more time and be a big hassle.
You could complain to the Law society about the sloppiness of your solicitor, but the Law society complaint process is long and unless your solicitor performed an egregious infraction you have little chance of reaching anything favourable to you.

Thanks for you input. I'd be inclined to agree with you from my experience and from what I've heard from others. I was thinking the small claims court was my next step I didn't realize that was out of bounds for me. I'll try write to the vendors solicitors myself maybe they have an explanation. It's very frustrating these guys going to ground over a small amount of money, principal makes me want to chase for it.

P. Breathnach

Ziggy_Stardust wrote: »

... I'll try write to the vendors solicitors myself maybe they have an explanation....

I'd advise against doing that.

Contact your own solicitor again and ask why he or she agreed to your paying the wrong amount. That puts the ball in your solicitor's court.

GGTrek

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Ziggy_Stardust wrote: »

... I'll try write to the vendors solicitors myself maybe they have an explanation....

I'd advise against doing that.

Contact your own solicitor again and ask why he or she agreed to your paying the wrong amount. That puts the ball in your solicitor's court.

If you read the original post his solicitor was not that interested in chasing the matter: "I have since queried this with my solicitor who has passed the query on however there has been no response for months now", this is like doing the same thing and expecting different results. If the OP feels that he wants to put more responsibility in his solicitors shoulders he can write (you need some evidence of the request) to his solicitor requesting an update and giving a reasonable deadline (15-30 days is more than enough for a simple matter like this one).

P. Breathnach

GGTrek wrote: »

If you read the original post his solicitor was not that interested in chasing the matter: "I have since queried this with my solicitor who has passed the query on however there has been no response for months now", this is like doing the same thing and expecting different results. If the OP feels that he wants to put more responsibility in his solicitors shoulders he can write (you need some evidence of the request) to his solicitor requesting an update and giving a reasonable deadline (15-30 days is more than enough for a simple matter like this one).

I had read the original post. The issue was being dealt with as if the vendor and the vendor's solicitor were the parties responsible, and if they were not willing to engage, then OP would have a difficult problem.

My suggestion was to regard the purchaser's solicitor as having responsibility for protecting the purchaser's interests.

Marcusm

Either your solicitor has been negligent in establishing the position or the vendor's solicitor has erred in providing an incorrect amount. Your solicitor is entitled, in part, to rely on statements from the vendor's solicitor but in doing so the vendor's solcitor, I believe, takes responsibility for those assertions similar to an undertaking.