Lost permanent teaching job

Teeacherlost

I became ill. Took unpaid and paid leave and at the end I wasn't told what the procedure's were. I'm now told I lost my permanent job because i didn't follow circular that came out when I was sick. Has any other teacher lost their job like this?

mirrorwall14

You need to give us a bit more info than that TBH. Do OHS find you unfit to ever return to teaching? Did you attend OHS? Did you inform your employer you were takin unpaid leave with a view to return to the workforce?

Crazyteacher

You need to consult with your Union and then a solicitor who deals with employment rights. Take care of yourself.

mirrorwall14

Just to say I'm not unsympathetic, just half asleep and it's hard to answer a non specific query. Are you in a union?

Teeacherlost

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Just to say I'm not unsympathetic, just half asleep and it's hard to answer a non specific query. Are you in a union?

Not in union. I attended OHS whose last report was the same as previous ones that I was not fit to work for the next few months. This is before new sick leave system came out. I did not get any communication from my school about anything.

mirrorwall14

Teeacherlost wrote: »

Not in union. I attended OHS whose last report was the same as previous ones that I was not fit to work for the next few months. This is before new sick leave system came out. I did not get any communication from my school about anything.

Ok. Who did you get notified about the loss of the job from? 5.3 and 6.3 seem to imply that the OHS are the people who decide if you are going to be able to return to work. Also the circular came out last September so that seems like an awful long time for you not to have attended OHS?

Circular is here:
http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0053_2015.pdf

Teeacherlost

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Ok. Who did you get notified about the loss of the job from? 5.3 and 6.3 seem to imply that the OHS are the people who decide if you are going to be able to return to work. Also the circular came out last September so that seems like an awful long time for you not to have attended OHS?

Thank you for your help my situation too complicated to go into here. Im going to look at legal route. I would advise teachers to ensure they and their next of kin know their employment rights. It seems no mercy when you become ill
Thanks again to you and others who replied

mirrorwall14

Teeacherlost wrote: »

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Ok. Who did you get notified about the loss of the job from? 5.3 and 6.3 seem to imply that the OHS are the people who decide if you are going to be able to return to work. Also the circular came out last September so that seems like an awful long time for you not to have attended OHS?

Thank you for your help my situation too complicated to go into here. Im going to look at legal route. I would advise teachers to ensure they and their next of kin know their employment rights. It seems no mercy when you become ill
Thanks again to you and others who replied

Legal route is the best plan. The very best of luck with it

r93kaey5p2izun

It's a pity you were not a union member as you would have the benefit of their expertise in employment law specific to education - definitely their strongest area and biggest benefit of the union. I would recommend you look for an employment law solicitor rather than just your own solicitor. Best of luck and look after your health first.

evolving_doors

Amalia Breezy Reggae wrote: »

It's a pity you were not a union member as you would have the benefit of their expertise in employment law specific to education - definitely their strongest area and biggest benefit of the union. I would recommend you look for an employment law solicitor rather than just your own solicitor. Best of luck and look after your health first.

Ya I'd echo that, I'd guess many of the unions solicitors also do private practice too. Also there are a few no win no fee employment solicitors out there (there were about 5 years ago anyway)
Keep searching on the net with words like 'employment teacher solicitor ' etc

evolving_doors

I'm thinking that even if they had a right to let you go, you may still may have some recompense if procedures weren't followed (not giving fair-warning. Proper notification etc.). I'm not a legal expert though. Actually I'm not a legal anything...

solerina

I know you said you are not a member of any union but maybe someone in the union could explain your rights even if they couldn't actually help you, I recommend Desmond O Toole in the ASTI! I have always found him excellent

uck51js9zml2yt

Might be worth asking in legal discussion forum if anyone can recommend someone ( if allowed by the charter)

Bicycle

Contact NERA - the National Employment Rights Association. They will be able to give you advice and you will be able to speak to them in confidence.

There may well be procedural issues that were not followed.

You might also google some of the Labour Relations Commission cases, see if there is anything similar to your case that has a positive outcome.

Employment Law practices are the best route to go legally - they are dealing with this on a daily basis. A quick google will turn up quite a few. Ask about previous cases they have taken and their success rate.

spurious

It may still be worth contacting the union appropriate to you as they will be faced with more and more cases like this in the future.

Teeacherlost

spurious wrote: »

It may still be worth contacting the union appropriate to you as they will be faced with more and more cases like this in the future.

I have to thank all of you again. I wish I had wrote here before. My faith in people is slowly being restored.
Alot of people said go to the union I asked for help and was told they wouldn't help as my sub was out of my wages and this lapsed when I went on unpaid leave even when I was distraught
When I talked to my school at the end of my leave I said I wasn't ready to work
Even though I tried to contact them again later they would not return my communications
I was told eventually that I didn't follow a circular that came out when I was very ill
These solicitors are very expensive will have to consider

mirrorwall14

That seems like incredibly little communication to let a teacher go. Do you have it in writing that you are being let go? Did they write to you to inform you that you were in breach of the circular? Is it a secondary school or an ETB?

Some googling here gives:

Fair grounds for dismissal

Your employer could give one or more of the following reasons for your dismissal:

Capability
This includes issues such as lateness, absenteeism and persistent absence through illness or injury, either short-term or long-term.

If lateness or absenteeism is at issue, your employer will be expected to have documentary proof of this allegation, such as clocking-in records or documented absences on file that are not medically certified. In addition, your employer will also be expected to show that you were made aware of the problem and that you were warned as to the consequences for your continued employment.

If illness or injury is at issue, it is often assumed that you cannot be dismissed fairly while on certified sick leave from your work. However, this is not true. It is difficult to lay down hard and fast rules to apply to these cases as each will be treated on its own merits. Issues such as length of service, previous record and the importance of the job will vary and will have to be taken into account. These types of claim are often divided into short-term and long-term absences.

Dismissal related to short-term illness generally occurs where you have a medical problem that results in frequent absences for short periods from the workplace. Assuming that the genuine nature of your problem was not in question, your employer will have to show that a pattern of absence exists, that it is causing problems, that the problem is unlikely to get better and that you have been warned that dismissal is likely.

In a case of a long-term absence, however, your employer will be expected to obtain detailed medical evidence that an early return to work is unlikely. There is no set period of absence by which it can be said that a dismissal will or will not be considered reasonable. Obviously, the longer the absence, the easier it is for your employer to show that it is causing genuine difficulty in terms of the organisation of the workplace.

In terms of medical evidence you may be required to attend your employer's medical expert. If there is a conflict of medical evidence between you and your employer as to the possible return date, your employer will be expected to get a second opinion before taking the decision to dismiss you.

However, it is important to note that if your illness might be considered a disability under employment equality legislation, your rights under that particular legislation would also have to be taken into consideration.

---

Now from what you describe you "May" have a case under this:
If lateness or absenteeism is at issue, your employer will be expected to have documentary proof of this allegation, such as clocking-in records or documented absences on file that are not medically certified. In addition, your employer will also be expected to show that you were made aware of the problem and that you were warned as to the consequences for your continued employment.

From what you say you were not warned as to the consequences of continued absence. If however they did inform you and can prove it I'm not sure you will have a case

seavill

I originally was annoyed by peoples responses to approach the union when you are not a member as to me it's simple if you want the protection of a union you pay like everyone else its not an a la carte thing (I know that will be unpopular to say)

However from your most recent post that changes things.

I would assume if you pay the missing subs to the union they would reinstate your membership without much issue, if this is the case they then would be able to help your situation. Realistically this is much more complicated than can be discussed here and not really something people can advise due to lack of expertise and lack of indepth knowledge of the case.

Paying back a couple of hundred euro possibly in missing subs would be an awful lot cheaper than the cost of a private solicitor. Just something to consider

Bicycle

Reading through your posts again, it would appear that they might have grounds for fair dismissal on grounds of capability.

HOWEVER, many cases fail on procedural grounds. That is, that the employer did not follow the rules and regulations regarding dismissal, to the letter.

Take a look at this:

http://employmentrightsireland.com/category/unfair-dismissal/

The last bit of the article states: "And you generally must afford fair procedures and natural justice to the employee in arriving at the decision."

If natural justice was not served, then you may have redress.

BUT, if you are taking a case, you need to take it relatively quickly. You only have 6 months from the date of dismissal to initiate a case.

More information here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/unfair_dismissal.html

joebloggs32

If your union sub only lapsed as you were off payroll I would strongly urge you to ring them up. It's not as if you you were someone who thought they would save themselves a few quid by never joining. I think that once you can show you were off the payroll due to ill health the union may even waive the arrears.