Forever tenants

handlemaster

http://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/i-am-afraid-that-its-already-too-late-for-me-to-ever-own-my-own-property-34897976.html


The first lady in the article says she took a year to save a deposit and can bearly afford rent. But with all this in mind is surprised why landlords dont want to have her as a tenant.

The second is 51 yrs old and says hes to old for a mortgage.

In both cases it doesnt state their life choices that got them there , just the landlords are bad .
A more balanced reporting would do all a favour.

beauf

Yes its a poor article. It's about the housing crisis. Not sure, if the lack of empathy is warranted though. Unless you believe there isn't a crisis Nice.

mickoneill31

beauf wrote: »

Yes its a poor article. It's about the housing crisis. Not sure, if the lack of empathy is warranted though. Unless you believe there isn't a crisis Nice.

There's empathy and there's common sense. The first lady is a single mom in a part time job. She's never going to afford her own property if nothing changes. That'd be the case if there was a crisis or not.
So because she can't afford to buy the council has to provide her a home apparently.

For the second guy. We've don't know enough about his history because the standards in the Indo aren't great. But he is affected by the crisis. He should be able to continue renting if he wants to. I'd guess Rathgar is pricey enough. He's probably going to have to move to where he can afford.

I've no idea what long term renters do when they retire. What's the general plan there?

Graham

beauf wrote: »

Yes its a poor article. It's about the housing crisis. Not sure, if the lack of empathy is warranted though. Unless you believe there isn't a crisis Nice.

What sort of empathy is going to put a part-time worker in a position where she is able to save a deposit and find a bank willing to advance a mortgage?

iguana

The first woman in the article does have other options open to her. She's a part-time care worker, she could do that anywhere in the country. She could move to a rural village and buy a decent house for well under €100k. And still be close enough to Dublin to spend a day a week visiting her mother and sisters if she wants to and to accommodate access for her daughter's father if that needs to be taken into account. She could start by renting in the area and with the low rent she'd be paying, saving and saving until she had a saved a very good deposit. Then she'd only need a small mortgage and with a track record of saving and a low LTV, she'd be a better prospect for credit. It's not ideal but it is an option that is open to her and it could provide her and her daughter with security and a very nice lifestyle.

Milly33

I would love the idea of being a forever tenant as such or a more long term tenant... People are obsessed with owning in Ireland

iSeano90

Milly33 wrote: »

I would love the idea of being a forever tenant as such or a more long term tenant... People are obsessed with owning in Ireland

But what happens when you are retired and not earning anymore- how will anyone afford rent at that point?

intheclouds

They both have options.

The single mother could work full time. She could work somewhere else. She is still very young so she could meet someone and combine her funds with theirs and buy somewhere.

The older guy could rent somewhere a lot cheaper and save. Sure wouldnt I love to live in Rathgar? Who wouldnt?

Milly33

Yeah all bits to be worked out, but Ireland me thinks does need to address this..

Many things can be done, like lets say when you retire etc the government could offer a subsidy for renting for people who would like to avail of the option.. Or have group retirement homes offered cheaper to retirees... So many options but all Ireland see's is but sure how do we make money off them that way..

People like this lady perhaps could be offered long term rental by her landlord with the thought of her treating it as a home not a rented place. Landlord is happy as he has long term rental and tenant is happy as she has a home with the knowledge she knows how much she has to pay monthly etc..

beauf

mickoneill31 wrote: »

There's empathy and there's common sense. The first lady is a single mom in a part time job. She's never going to afford her own property if nothing changes. That'd be the case if there was a crisis or not.
So because she can't afford to buy the council has to provide her a home apparently.

Her problem is she can't afford rent, or pay rent in case of illness. Buying a place is a distant dream. So the fallback is a council house. Which shes moving further away from the top of that list.

mickoneill31 wrote: »

For the second guy. We've don't know enough about his history because the standards in the Indo aren't great. But he is affected by the crisis. He should be able to continue renting if he wants to. I'd guess Rathgar is pricey enough. He's probably going to have to move to where he can afford.

This guy is just making ends meet. Is looking for a long term lease to get security of tenure for his kids. Its a much about that as is about buying a place.

mickoneill31 wrote: »

I've no idea what long term renters do when they retire. What's the general plan there?

The question is will be what will they do now that rents are not affordable.

If you move down the country or out of your area, you lose the support of family and friends, important when you have kids, or older family. You will get paid less and have higher transports costs and there are less jobs. Moving also costs money, which is big ask when you are only getting buy. So its no silver bullet either.

But the Paper hooked you with the "buy property" and that's all ye saw.

iSeano90

Milly33 wrote: »

Yeah all bits to be worked out, but Ireland me thinks does need to address this..

Many things can be done, like lets say when you retire etc the government could offer a subsidy for renting for people who would like to avail of the option.. Or have group retirement homes offered cheaper to retirees... So many options but all Ireland see's is but sure how do we make money off them that way..

People like this lady perhaps could be offered long term rental by her landlord with the thought of her treating it as a home not a rented place. Landlord is happy as he has long term rental and tenant is happy as she has a home with the knowledge she knows how much she has to pay monthly etc..

That would be a ferocious expense on the state. Plus retirement home and that kind of thing cost phenomenal money.

Milly33

What do long term renters do when they retire. Go on a retirement cruise with all the money they saved not pouring into a dodgy mortgage...

Expense on the state!! mmmm no it would not, sorry but if it was managed correctly it would not... Are people really that oblivious to it all.
They could offer so much to people.... Without it breaking the bank but the state would build a multi million retirement home when the people want a caravan park...

iSeano90

Milly33 wrote: »

What do long term renters do when they retire. Go on a retirement cruise with all the money they saved not pouring into a dodgy mortgage...

LOL- They must have a few quid saved up to have no income, be able to afford rent each month, and go on retirement cruises

So someone that retires today:
Stop working at 65-67
Have an income of state pension + maybe own pension (maybe)
Keep paying current rent of 1000+ a month (more than a lot of mortgages)

Good luck going on cruises with all the money "saved" not pouring into dodgy mortgages.

intheclouds

There is going to be a huge problem with people looking for housing who can no longer afford to privately rent when they retire.

Long term renting is only feasible when you have a good pension to look forward to AND the rental market is regulated.

Milly33

They also wouldn't have all the (I did say all there) maintenance costs that comes with houses, or the tax or the gift to the old Muppet Centre, or all the lovely taxes they like to add on.

Ah I know it isn't straight forward as black and white but it isn't "OMG that person does not what to buy a house, whats wrong with them"

iSeano90

Milly33 wrote: »

They also wouldn't have all the (I did say all there) maintenance costs that comes with houses, or the tax or the gift to the old Muppet Centre, or all the lovely taxes they like to add on.

Ah I know it isn't straight forward as black and white but it isn't "OMG that person does not what to buy a house, whats wrong with them"

Well, someone needs to pay to design and build what you are speaking of, run it, maintain it, keep it staffed... it would cost a fortune.

True, you don't need to buy a house.
But if you aren't going to do that, you should be investing in something that will generate cash in the long term. To do neither would be a bad idea.

Toto Wolfcastle

Milly33 wrote: »

They also wouldn't have all the (I did say all there) maintenance costs that comes with houses, or the tax or the gift to the old Muppet Centre, or all the lovely taxes they like to add on.

Ah I know it isn't straight forward as black and white but it isn't "OMG that person does not what to buy a house, whats wrong with them"

Nothing wrong with not buying as long as people have a plan for retirement. I know people who are renting and already struggling and I have no idea what they're going to do when they retire. There doesn't seem to be a plan (although obviously you never know the full story) and there are certainly no savings.

Mrs OBumble

iSeano90 wrote: »

But what happens when you are retired and not earning anymore- how will anyone afford rent at that point?

Since you are no longer constrained by the job-market, one option is to move to a smaller cheaper place.

Another is council housing. Once you get over 55, a whole extra set of council housing targetted for elderly/disabled becomes an option. You still have to wait for someone who has a place to die or move to a nursing home. But there's a larger stock. (Here's an interesting question though: is that stock being increased in proportion to the population aging ....)

Or by that time your children will be raising and earning, and you live with them. (If multi-generational living works for your family/culture - there are some it does work for.)

Or you buy with a friend. It's not for everyone and needs careful agreement, but I know some people who've done this because it was the only way they could ever afford to buy.

Or if you're only 28, there's a good chance that you will form a relationship in the next 10 years and so your household will have enough income to buy. Or if you're only working part-time, you study and get better quals, so get a better-paying job.

What the article doesn't say is that the government really doesn't expect that caregivers and the like will ever earn enough to buy in Dublin - that's why the council housing income thresholds are the way they are.

SB_Part2

intheclouds wrote: »

They both have options.

The single mother could work full time. She could work somewhere else. She is still very young so she could meet someone and combine her funds with theirs and buy somewhere.

Who'd look after her child while she works full time? Childcare is sometimes more expensive than rent.

And "She could meet someone" ? Maybe she's happier on her own. She shouldn't have to meet someone to be able to afford a house.

beauf

intheclouds wrote: »

There is going to be a huge problem with people looking for housing who can no longer afford to privately rent when they retire.

Long term renting is only feasible when you have a good pension to look forward to AND the rental market is regulated.

I would say AND the rental market is affordable.

The current market is regulated. Its just not affordable due to chronic shortage of supply. If LL leave the market, it will shrink the supply even further. Even Nama is selling property not renting it.

ED E

Toto Wolfcastle wrote: »

Nothing wrong with not buying as long as people have a plan for retirement.

If only they did, country is headed for far worse times when the pension problem really raises its head.

beauf

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Since you are no longer constrained by the job-market, one option is to move to a smaller cheaper place.....

This is very hard to find. I know people trying to downside and there very little stock that is suitable. Often the cost of the smaller property is the same as larger one. Because supply is even less of suitable housing for older people. So why bother moving at all, if you are not going to save money. All you will do is move further way from your support network.

intheclouds

SB_Part2 wrote: »

Who'd look after her child while she works full time? Childcare is sometimes more expensive than rent.

And "She could meet someone" ? Maybe she's happier on her own. She shouldn't have to meet someone to be able to afford a house.

Childcare. Yes.

I think that personal responsibility has to play a part here. You cant have everything. If you want to have a child then you have to consider that that might force you to work part time because child care is expensive. In turn, if you work part time you cant expect to get a mortgage.

Seeing as she works part time, she could use some of the time to upskill and later when its feasible she could get a full time job.

Yeah - maybe she is happier on her own. She could merge household income with a friend rather than a romantic partner.

You shouldnt have to meet someone to afford a house - again, you cant have everything. Id like a 5 bed fully detached property on land. I cant afford that. She could buy a 2 bed apartment for under 200k if she got a deposit of 20k together. So maybe thats her option?

There is no one size fits all solution.

I do think that people need to accept some personal responsibility for their life choices. I got an education, avoided getting pregnant, got a good job, saved and scrimped for about 6 years in my late 20s/early 30s - all so I could get a mortgage on a tiny place - on my own. Im still in that tiny place. I have 10 years of mortgage repayments behind me and I would just break even if I sold it. I have plenty of friends in 3 or 4 bed semi d's who settled down 10 years before me. Do I begrudge them? No, I cut my cloth to my measure as did they. We all make our choices.

Angel2016

A couple of factors there she works part time as a care assistant which probably does not pay alot, she is paying rent in D22 most likely around 1K and she has a child to care for and pay for so I would agree it's near impossible to save a deposit, if she worked full time she would earn more money but then would have to pay for child care I imagine, is she is receipt of VIES we dont have that information.

I rent in D24 paying 1250.00 per month and am currently saving a deposit I have just gone sale agreed on a property that I am selling my one bed apt in Tallaght so we will get some money from that not alot really but it will be added to the pot, an idea for people would be to take out a 3-5 year lease with a LL and save within that time I know a couple who did that whilst working full time and having two kids in the same time period they just bought a house last year.

It's really difficult to save the huge deposits needed now so I can see where this girl is coming from in regards to saving but I dont think the rules for deposits will change anytime soon so it's best people just dog in and save what they can.

beauf

Its not just the deposits, its the restricted (Correctly IMO) rule for the mortgages.

Though if people are struggling to pay rents, I think saving for a deposit to buy is a big leap.

iguana

beauf wrote: »

If you move down the country or out of your area, you lose the support of family and friends, important when you have kids, or older family. You will get paid less and have higher transports costs and there are less jobs. Moving also costs money, which is big ask when you are only getting buy. So its no silver bullet either.

I specifically said that it wasn't an ideal solution but the woman in the article is a part-time care worker. Her earning potential is pretty much the same regardless of where in Ireland she works but her costs would be an awful lot lower outside of Dublin. And transport costs can actually be significantly lower in other parts of the country. It's not as if the choice is to either live in Dublin or a house in a field down a rural lane. There are many options in between that are in fact far cheaper for transport than Dublin. Say she moved to Dundalk, she could potentially live closer to her workplace/clients and spend far less on transport than she potentially does in Dublin. She would have far, far more disposable income than she does at the moment. Moving out of Dublin and then commuting every day for work would be a false economy, but with a job like care-work that's not necessary.

And depending on where in Dublin her mother and sisters live, she could be within an hour's drive of them, so not too far away to maintain a regular contact. And obviously if her family live on the other side of Dublin, she could focus on moving to somewhere in Kildare/Carlow/Laois/etc. That will obviously make a big difference if she and her daughter currently live within walking distance of her family and see them for hours every day. But if they live in different parts of Dublin, they might find that the journey times between their homes aren't all that different.

fits

You can pull apart these situations all you want but the fact remains is that there is a huge crisis and 'personal responsibility' is only a small part of it. I know many well educated working couples who "didn't get pregnant" that cannot get mortgages in Ireland. Part of the reason is the precarious nature of work these days. Rents are out of control and there is very little on the market to buy.

intheclouds

fits wrote: »

You can pull apart these situations all you want but the fact remains is that there is a huge crisis and 'personal responsibility' is only a small part of it. I know many well educated working couples who "didn't get pregnant" that cannot get mortgages in Ireland. Part of the reason is the precarious nature of work these days. Rents are out of control and there is very little on the market to buy.

There is personal responsibility and there is also timing/good luck.

Had I been ready to buy somewhere 10 years before I did I wouldnt have suffered a massive hit when the market collapsed.

So I did as many things as I could for a good outcome but I still lost a lot due to external factors.

But I really cant have a huge amount of sympathy for someone in their 50s who is only worrying about the rental situation now. Why wasnt he doing something (anything) to secure his future before now? You cant say youve been living in Rathgar for 10 years and now youre in your 50s and cant have a mortgage. Thats because you chose to live in Rathgar!! What was he doing before that? If he is in his 50s he has lived through the Celtic Tiger so there were jobs all over the place and plenty of opportunity to save money.

Similarly I dont have a huge amount of sympathy for the single mother example because (a) she is very young and has loads of time ahead of her to come up with a better final outcome and (b) she has options such as further education, a full time job, living elsewhere, meeting someone etc.....

I just dont really feel either of these examples are particularly worthy of government intervention tbh.

fits

intheclouds wrote: »

But I really cant have a huge amount of sympathy for someone in their 50s who is only worrying about the rental situation now. Why wasnt he doing something (anything) to secure his future before now? You cant say youve been living in Rathgar for 10 years and now youre in your 50s and cant have a mortgage. Thats because you chose to live in Rathgar!! What was he doing before that? If he is in his 50s he has lived through the Celtic Tiger so there were jobs all over the place and plenty of opportunity to save money.

Perhaps he saved money and invested it and lost it all. This happened to many many people.

Similarly I dont have a huge amount of sympathy for the single mother example because (a) she is very young and has loads of time ahead of her to come up with a better final outcome and (b) she has options such as further education, a full time job, living elsewhere, meeting someone etc.....

I just dont really feel either of these examples are particularly worthy of government intervention tbh.

Perhaps she isn't a single mother by choice! The appalling situation with regard to childcare in this country pretty much rules out full time work for a lot of people in this situation. It could be much much better.

You don't really know enough about either of these situations to judge how they got there. And it was as likely due to luck as it was to their own decisions.

intheclouds

fits wrote: »

Perhaps he saved money and invested it and lost it all. This happened to many many people.

Well we can only really discuss whats in the article and based on whats in it about him I think if you choose to live in Rathgar for 10 years you cant really complain then that you are in your 50s with no chance of a mortgage. If he lost an investment why would he stay living in Rathgar?

fits wrote: »

Perhaps she isn't a single mother by choice! The appalling situation with regard to childcare in this country pretty much rules out full time work for a lot of people in this situation. It could be much much better.

Yes I dont disagree with this. I am not denigrating her choice to have a child. However, all choices have consequences and if this now means she works part time then she needs to come up with a plan going forward if she wants to own a house. She has options and time on her side here.

Im sure there is an element of luck involved, but life isnt just monopoly. You make choices and there are consequences.

Id love to not work and to sit about eating junk food and smoking cigarettes all day but I know id be homeless and in bad health in no time if I did. So I dont. We all make choices.

fits

As someone who has worked hard and saved hard all my live and finding it difficult to get a mortgage, I really find it infuriating that people can simply put it down to poor decision making. I really do.