Fingal Organised Residents United Movement (FORUM)

dak

Some Residents associations in Portmarnock, Swords, Malahide and St Margarets are hoping to come together under an association called FORUM which has been around but dormant since the Portmarnock UPROAR campaign to increase the number of people represented in talks with the DAA and the Government regarding the operation of the new runway.

The aim is not to stop the runway being built which is going ahead but to engage the DAA and Government to ensure all affected residents get proper sound insullation and that all noise abatement measures are carried out . The new runway has nighttime flying restrictions ( Limited to 65 flight per night) which the DAA want to get rid of and have unrestricted night time flights. We wish to oppose any change to these night time conditions!

Under safety regulation when the airport runways are in joint operational mode all departing flights will have to diverge by 15 degrees which means more aircraft flying directly over Malahide and Swords on take off.

Portmarnock Community Association is building a database of all Local resident associations to have a united representation in dealings with the DAA and the Government.

If you know or are a member of a residents association in any area in the close vicinty of the airport could you please send the contact details of the chairman of the association to me at Portmarnock1@gmail.com
or pm me on Boards

Thanks

Dak

Carawaystick

Please explain how any aircraft will fly directly over Swords on take off?

Dizzyblonde

I live in Rivervalley in Swords and actually love living near the airport. Years ago we had quite a bit of noise (and no double glazing) when they used the north/south runway all the time. When TEAM had the aircraft maintenance contract we used to hear them testing the engines a lot too. It never bothered us, it was just part of life when you live near an airport. Planes never ever flew out directly over us though and that won't happen with the new runway which will run east to west. We've had hardly any noise for decades now, and the sad thing about that is the fact that TEAM closed down, with lots of people losing their jobs.

While I feel for people living close to the ends of the runway, including St. Margaret's, and I hope the DAA look after them I seriously doubt that the DAA will stump up for sound insulation for people living as far away as Malahide and Portmarnock.

dak

Carawaystick wrote: »

Please explain how any aircraft will fly directly over Swords on take off?

Planes taking off eastward on the new runway when the runway is in dual mode will diverge by 15 degrees left on take off which will bring them a lot closer to certain parts of swords ie Feltrim etc

Uriel.

I won't be getting on board (pardon the pun) with this group. I've lived in Swords all my life and have never had an issue with aircraft in terms of noise or visual impact and I can't imagine this is going to greatly change into the future, at least not to the level of requiring new/more insulation.

There is also the fact that the surrounding fingal area, for the most part, in terms of residential housing complexes popped up subsequent to the airport's initial development. I think there is a need to accept that choosing to live close to a country's primary national Airport will bring certain (positive and negative) aspects to the situation. Expansion of the airport and it's capacity has been on the cards for a long time and it is an inevitable requirement and reality.

I would certainly support broader groups as suggested for other "lobbying" purposes like improving transport infrastructure in specific catchments etc, but not for nimby issues.

easygoing39

I wont be getting involved in this either,Im 47 years living near the airport and have accepted that I will hear aircraft overhead.All these blow-ins giving out because they purchased a house beside an airport and cant understand why they hear aircraft,are they mad? Its like buying a beachfront house and giving out because they can hear the waves!!!!

dslamjack

I was born and brought up in St Margaret's - the DAA-Aer Rianta were never good neighbour's.
They depopulated the best part of that area over the year's with the use of compulsory purchase order's.
But it is one of the fewest major airport's in the world that has civil or industrial development up to it's perimeter's and flight path's.
There was trouble year's ago because people in Rivervalley could hear jet engine's being tested at all hour's,but that was ended and did not take a major campaign for the resident's to achieve resolution.
As has been stated above if you live near or decide to live near a major international airport what do you expect,just be grateful the old dc10',tristar's and bac 1'11s etc are not still around - now they were noisy and smelly.
People who live around a international airport and complain about the noise are like those who move to the country and complain about the smell of silage.
For what it is worth- when the first runway was built people in Malahide/Portmarnock looked for sound insulation ,to my knowledge the only and few resident's that did get compensation were those people living in Newtown Cottage's beside Dunsoghly Castle in St Margaret's.

dslamjack

At the time of the planning being given for both runway's,people in the local vicinity wanted a road tunnel under the new runway so the R108 Naul Rd would not have to be diverted around the new runway.
They also wanted this condition applied to the new runway when it's construction began and if my memory serves people back then were also advising that a similar cut and cover tunnel be provided for a light rail/train service to serve Swords and the Airport.
That was back in the mid 80's and people had the fore sight then and were demanding provision for the future future growth of both Sword's and the Airport.
And again in and around the same time CIE proposed linking Malahide via Sword's ,the Airport ,Ballymun to meet the Sligo rail line in Finlas for the grand sum of 10 million punt's at the time.
They are talking billion's now and another 10 year's for Metro north light.
Just like when the M50 was started and everybody in Dublin said it should be a 4 lane highway,the planner's took the cheap easy option,ignored public opinion and ended up costing the taxpayer's billion's.
On the matter of sound insulation,F.C.C and the government have a responsibility here,they make enough money from the rate's and tax's provided by the Airport to initiate a grant scheme for people who feel they need noise protection/insulation in their home's,I believe such scheme's have been provided for in the past to help people insulate their home's for heat and environmental reason's.

Uriel.

dslamjack wrote: »

On the matter of sound insulation,F.C.C and the government have a responsibility here,they make enough money from the rate's and tax's provided by the Airport to initiate a grant scheme for people who feel they need noise protection/insulation in their home's,I believe such scheme's have been provided for in the past to help people insulate their home's for heat and environmental reason's.

No, they don't have a responsibility.
The grant schemes you mention where incentivising schemes.. e.g. to increase energy efficiency of building, a national policy target for issues such as climate change etc.

A scheme re sound insulation would not be an incentivised scheme, but rather a a compensation scheme. I don't see why the Government or the tax payer should be compensating people in this regard. There is no national policy initiative to be achieved.

If any thing the DAA would be the compensating authority, but again I don't see many reasons for them to compensate, e.g. catchments of people.

dslamjack

I was just trying to be fair,because sound insulation is much the same as standard heat insulation including triple glazing etc and increase's energy efficiency etc,although I'm not an expert on the matter.
Likewise,as I said above if people decide to live in the flight path of a major international airport,you have to expect noise,just like people who buy home's adjacent to main rail line's.
After a while you get used to the noise and don't notice it.
If I am being honest,it's a totally lost cause because the DAA will get whatever they want in the end,that's the way it has always been.

maximum12

dak wrote: »

Under safety regulation when the airport runways are in joint operational mode all departing flights will have to diverge by 15 degrees which means more aircraft flying directly over Malahide and Swords on take off.


Dak

Could you clarify what "joint operational mode" means ?

Is there a map/image anywhere of the flightpath in this scenario ?

thanks.

plodder

I think insulation schemes might be pushing it unless you are living very close, but there is still a certain level of nuisance and I think the DAA should be doing something for communities affected, by way of compensation.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Hi I bought a house in the Fingal area a couple of years ago. There is a beautiful pond beside it.
My problem is that the ducks that are resident there quack a lot. Would forum be able to campaign for me to get this sound insulation as well?
Before moving in I never realised that having ducks living beside me would cause quacking and I would say there numbers have doubled in the two years.

Dizzyblonde

A few years ago the county council put a pedestrian crossing beside our house, and for the first couple of days Himself thought he couldn't live with the occasional 'beep beep' sound because he heard it a couple of times when he was trying to go to sleep, and was planning on selling the house :rolleyes:
Within a week he'd stopped noticing the beep. I know it's not the same thing, but unless you've got planes flying in low over your house I doubt you'd have a case against the DAA. Airports are a fact of life.

dak

Forum now has a facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/Forum-Fingal-Organised-Residents-United-Movement-651613935003300/

neris

when you buy a house near an airport or flight path what do people expect? This is another case of NIMBYism, also what alternative proposition are this group making to the DAA about future expansion of the airport and its facilities or do they just want the airport to stay as it is?

maximum12

Why are people banging on about living near an airport? The op is talking about compliance with planning permission.

If you believe airports should be allowed do whatever they want then please say so.

dslamjack

The DAA/Aer Rianta .. have always done what they wanted,and what's more always got what they wanted.
The permission was granted for the 2 runways and ancillary work's back in the 80's.
The DAA are going to argue,that the flight limitation's might have been feasible then but not now,it's the equivalent of ''if metro north lite'' ever get's built ,insisting that only 2 trains a day or so use it.
What ever way it goes,there will be the equivalent number of flight's per day/night as the first runway on the new second runway,so in fact at least doubling the amount of flight traffic in and out of the airport,if that was not going to be the case ,their would be no point in them building it.

lesfingal

Well the DAA PR Dept must be delighted with all the easy going comments here about aircraft
noise. To suggest that people should have known better than to buy a house close to the airport ignores the fact that Fingal particularly Swords has expanded hugely over the last 40 years and airport operations likewise. Also many people bought where they could afford long before the DAA vanity project of a North Runway.

When the DAA secured planning permission for the North Runway they accepted certain conditions pertaining to night time operations. They are simply being asked to abide by those conditions. Cities like Paris and London have night time restrictions on flights are we suggesting that the DAA should have free rein in this matter?

On these warm nights it's impossible to have a window open such is the noise from the airport way before 7a.m. Smart remarks about duck ponds and audible traffic lights add nothing to the debate on what is a serious issue.

Perhaps those who think they won't be affected by the North Runway may find out otherwise when the triangulation of flight paths begins to emerge.

Dizzyblonde

lesfingal wrote: »

Well the DAA PR Dept must be delighted with all the easy going comments here about aircraft
noise. To suggest that people should have known better than to buy a house close to the airport ignores the fact that Fingal particularly Swords has expanded hugely over the last 40 years and airport operations likewise. Also many people bought where they could afford long before the DAA vanity project of a North Runway.

When the DAA secured planning permission for the North Runway they accepted certain conditions pertaining to night time operations. They are simply being asked to abide by those conditions. Cities like Paris and London have night time restrictions on flights are we suggesting that the DAA should have free rein in this matter?

On these warm nights it's impossible to have a window open such is the noise from the airport way before 7a.m. Smart remarks about duck ponds and audible traffic lights add nothing to the debate on what is a serious issue.

Perhaps those who think they won't be affected by the North Runway may find out otherwise when the triangulation of flight paths begins to emerge.

Have the DAA refused to abide by those conditions?

You must live very close to the airport and in the flight path if you have to keep your windows closed. Where I live we used to hear a lot of noise, and these windy days we're hearing quite a bit because they seem to be using the north/south runway more. As such, in the 33 years I have lived here I accept that living beside an airport has negatives as well as huge positives. Swords, the town I live in, wouldn't be anything near as big and successful if it wasn't for its close proximity to the airport. It is a huge employer, brings lots of business to the area, and keeps housing in high demand.

My issue is not to do with the proper flight restrictions being in place, it is to do with people seeming to be hopping on the bandwagon and trying to get new windows/noise insulation for free when they may not actually be hugely affected.

I completely understand anyone who is going to be badly affected taking issue with the DAA, and I hope you have done so.

My comments (not smart remarks) about the traffic lights were made merely to demonstrate how low level/irritating noise can be tolerated and ignored. I wasn't for a minute suggesting that an airbus flying at low altitude overhead was as trivial a matter.

plodder

It's far from a vanity project too. Some said the same about T2, but I'd shudder to think what the airport would be like without it now. Last time I traveled a couple of months ago it was at a very busy time, and we were waiting I'd say twenty minutes in the queue to take off. Dublin is in the top tier of airports now and needs the infrastructure. They're talking about a third terminal now already

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-airport-traffic-passengers-2-2918662-Aug2016/

Uriel.

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

Have the DAA refused to abide by those conditions?

You must live very close to the airport and in the flight path if you have to keep your windows closed. Where I live we used to hear a lot of noise, and these windy days we're hearing quite a bit because they seem to be using the north/south runway more. As such, in the 33 years I have lived here I accept that living beside an airport has negatives as well as huge positives. Swords, the town I live in, wouldn't be anything near as big and successful if it wasn't for its close proximity to the airport. It is a huge employer, brings lots of business to the area, and keeps housing in high demand.

My issue is not to do with the proper flight restrictions being in place, it is to do with people seeming to be hopping on the bandwagon and trying to get new windows/noise insulation for free when they may not actually be hugely affected.

I completely understand anyone who is going to be badly affected taking issue with the DAA, and I hope you have done so.

My comments (not smart remarks) about the traffic lights were made merely to demonstrate how low level/irritating noise can be tolerated and ignored. I wasn't for a minute suggesting that an airbus flying at low altitude overhead was as trivial a matter.

The fact that one of the primary pitches in the OP was insulation etc for houses, should tell you all you need to know about this group.

dslamjack

I see in this week's Fingal Indo,the DAA offering to buy 38 homes at 20% more than their market value off the home owners in the 69 decibel 'noise contour area'.
A 110 homes in the lower 63 decibel contour have been offered sound insulation schemes, paid for by the DAA using a contractor.
House's that qualify for the buy-out scheme can opt out and instead decide to take the sound insulation option and will have the option to change their mind up to three years after the runway is completed. If they opted for the insulation process and later opt for the buy-out scheme , the cost of the insulation will not be subtracted from the valuation of their home. Should the home owner receive a different independent valuation from the one the DAA-hired agent comes up with, there will be an arbitration process for any difference more than 5%, paid for by DAA.
It's a pity the DAA were not as thoughtful of their neighbour's in the past,but is quite obviously a very well thought out PR exercise and will be seen as ''them bending over backward's to be nice''.
At the end of the day,the project will go ahead and be completed ,with the minimum of detraction of what the DAA wanted.

dak

Uriel. wrote: »

The fact that one of the primary pitches in the OP was insulation etc for houses, should tell you all you need to know about this group.

Hi Uriel

I am member of FORUM and you are quoting my original post out of context which stated " all affected Residents get sound insullation" . Our aims are listed below and we dont even mention sound insullation specifically which would fall under aim 3 and 5 as part of noise mitigation measures

The aims Aims of Forum are as follows :

1. To represent Fingal local community interests and concerns over the impact on quality of life in the area due to the expansion of Dublin Airport.

2. To insist on the retention of Conditions 3 and 5 imposed by An Bord Pleanala and agreed by Dublin Airport Authority in 2007 on the mode of operation of the New Runway namely:

3. Condition 3(d) prohibits use of North Runway for landings and take-offs between the hours of 2300 to 0700.
Condition 5 states that, on completion of construction of the new runway, the average number of night time aircraft movements at the airport shall not exceed 65/night (between 2300 and 0700).That a wholly Independent Competent Authority should be established to comply with, and ensure compliance with, EU REGULATION 598/14.

· This Authority must have the confidence of Airport Communities.

· Mechanisms should be in place to measure and reduce/eliminate Aircraft Noise with the intent of achieving W.H.O. Standards.

· Air Quality checks and Public safety zones should be clearly defined.

· Updated standards of noise levels to clearly state when there is a need to initiate insulation of schools and Homes.

4. Use of Financial instruments to ensure Airlines and Airport operators comply with Best Standards .

5. Flight Paths to be clearly delineated for local communities showing 15 degree separation and noise contour maps and subsequent mitigation plans need to be updated to reflect these intentions. Existing and new flightpaths to be designed in such a way as to reduce noise impact on residents

6. There should be a rigorous and transparent Cost Benefit Analysis of the total cost of proposed Runway North to reflect need for upgrading road transport infrastructure, insulation costs,house purchase costs and Health Costs .

Discussion on Noise Insullation specifically :

Under the new EU regulations 598/14 there is supposed to be one or 2 competent authorities assigned who among other things produce independent sound contour maps . Currently these maps are produced by DAA who in turn use them to identify houses which qualify for sound insullation

There are 2 issues here 1) The DAA are not an independent competent authority under the EU directive and 2 ) The current contour maps are useless as they dont include the 15 degree divergence of flight paths that will happen under aviation safety rules once the runways are in joint operational mode .


So right this minute we dont know what area the the new flight paths are over nor do we know the noise contours under these new flightpaths which in turn identify the the affected residents and associated areas .

Our primary objective is to protect the quality of life as far as we can among local resident groups living in the proximiity of Dublin Airport .. ensuring residents who qualify under the DAA scheme for sound insullation get their entitlement is just one small part of this objective .

We are not advocating sound insullation for those residents who don't qualify.. only that new noise contour maps are created by an independent body and there is transparency in the production of same and then qualifying homes can be identified for sound insullation.

Regards

Dak

dslamjack

Originally posted by dak -
I am member of FORUM and you are quoting my original post out of context which stated " all affected Residents get sound insullation" . Our aims are listed below and we dont even mention sound insullation specifically which would fall under aim 3 and 5 as part of noise mitigation measures

The aims Aims of Forum are as follows :

1. To represent Fingal local community interests and concerns over the impact on quality of life in the area due to the expansion of Dublin Airport.

2. To insist on the retention of Conditions 3 and 5 imposed by An Bord Pleanala and agreed by Dublin Airport Authority in 2007 on the mode of operation of the New Runway namely:

3. Condition 3(d) prohibits use of North Runway for landings and take-offs between the hours of 2300 to 0700.
Condition 5 states that, on completion of construction of the new runway, the average number of night time aircraft movements at the airport shall not exceed 65/night (between 2300 and 0700).That a wholly Independent Competent Authority should be established to comply with, and ensure compliance with, EU REGULATION 598/14.

· This Authority must have the confidence of Airport Communities.

· Mechanisms should be in place to measure and reduce/eliminate Aircraft Noise with the intent of achieving W.H.O. Standards.

· Air Quality checks and Public safety zones should be clearly defined.

· Updated standards of noise levels to clearly state when there is a need to initiate insulation of schools and Homes.

4. Use of Financial instruments to ensure Airlines and Airport operators comply with Best Standards .

5. Flight Paths to be clearly delineated for local communities showing 15 degree separation and noise contour maps and subsequent mitigation plans need to be updated to reflect these intentions. Existing and new flightpaths to be designed in such a way as to reduce noise impact on residents

6. There should be a rigorous and transparent Cost Benefit Analysis of the total cost of proposed Runway North to reflect need for upgrading road transport infrastructure, insulation costs,house purchase costs and Health Costs .

Discussion on Noise Insullation specifically :

Under the new EU regulations 598/14 there is supposed to be one or 2 competent authorities assigned who among other things produce independent sound contour maps . Currently these maps are produced by DAA who in turn use them to identify houses which qualify for sound insullation

There are 2 issues here 1) The DAA are not an independent competent authority under the EU directive and 2 ) The current contour maps are useless as they dont include the 15 degree divergence of flight paths that will happen under aviation safety rules once the runways are in joint operational mode .


So right this minute we dont know what area the the new flight paths are over nor do we know the noise contours under these new flightpaths which in turn identify the the affected residents and associated areas .

Our primary objective is to protect the quality of life as far as we can among local resident groups living in the proximiity of Dublin Airport .. ensuring residents who qualify under the DAA scheme for sound insullation get their entitlement is just one small part of this objective .

We are not advocating sound insullation for those residents who don't qualify.. only that new noise contour maps are created by an independent body and there is transparency in the production of same and then qualifying homes can be identified for sound insullation.

Regards

Dak

I hope your forum has every success,someone need's to keep an eye on the DAA,and ensure the Irish Aviation Authority does it's job also.
If I sounded negative in post's above it's because being an ex-resident of Cloghran who's back garden shared the Airport fence as a boundary,as I said the DAA were never good neighbours and basically depopulated the land's around the Airport with the use of CPO's and objecting to resident's looking for planning permission's for extension's and septic tank's etc.
You are right in holding this organisation to highest possible standard's in term's of noise ,air pollution,and best international aviation practice's etc.
It really is a David and Goliath situation,so I hope you have a big sling and you get the best deal possible for the community as a whole and as a result safe guarding as best you can the quality of life of the resident's in the vicinity of the Airport and further afield.

Lux23

I don't even hear aircraft anymore. I really think these kind of campaigns are for people who have very little to worry about.

dak

Lux23 wrote: »

I don't even hear aircraft anymore. I really think these kind of campaigns are for people who have very little to worry about.

Hi Lux23

I don't know how far you live from an airport but if you cant hear them you either live far enough away from a flight path or live so close that you have gone deaf.

Noise , Air pollution and quality of life in the community are very big issues for all Residents and more so for those residents who currently live in the proximity of the existing runway and also a big worry for those who will soon find themselves in a similar situation near the new North Runway.

If you were in their shoes you might have a different opinion!

Regards

Dak

Anita Blow

I live on Forrest Road (so immediately adjacent to the runway) and noise pollution is not a concern for myself or any of the neighbours we've discussed this with. Certainly agree with maintaining the restriction during night time hours, but outside of this it seems like a bit of a non-issue.

Michael8000

There was a piece on Morning Ireland earlier about this.

https://www.rte.ie/radio1/morning-ireland/programmes/2016/0826/812077-morning-ireland-friday-26-august-2016/?clipid=2268888#2268888

Local resident on the impact of the airplanes "It has started to split up the community"

Reporter: "But you built it beside a busy airport surely you should have known there'd be airplanes flying over every few minutes"

Resident: "Ok well maybe I have to accept that but now they're talking about not one runway but a second runway and it'll be double the noise."

Strange logic to build a house so close to the airport if you are so bothered about the noise.

Difficult to have any empathy with those affected if these are the arguments being put forward.

Csalem

Michael8000 wrote: »

There was a piece on Morning Ireland earlier about this.

https://www.rte.ie/radio1/morning-ireland/programmes/2016/0826/812077-morning-ireland-friday-26-august-2016/?clipid=2268888#2268888

Local resident on the impact of the airplanes "It has started to split up the community"

Reporter: "But you built it beside a busy airport surely you should have known there'd be airplanes flying over every few minutes"

Resident: "Ok well maybe I have to accept that but now they're talking about not one runway but a second runway and it'll be double the noise."

Strange logic to build a house so close to the airport if you are so bothered about the noise.

Difficult to have any empathy with those affected if these are the arguments being put forward.

Personally I think the line that came before that was a bit more interesting when the resident said there was no mention in their planning permission( to build the house) about planes flying over it.

dak

Forum represents several residents associations from areas around Dublin Airport to voice their concerns over the New Runway and in particular the wish of the DAA to do away with conditions 3 and 5 relating to runway usage at night .
Forum are holding a public meeting in the PSLC in Portmarnock on Wednesday 5th October . Admission is free but you must register and reserve a ticket through eventbrite on the following link

https://www.eventbrite.ie/e/forum-public-meeting-re-new-runway-tickets-27564483111