Does Dublin lose out on project spending to rural areas?

Sam Russell

mickmmc wrote: »

At the time of the vote for a directly elected Mayor Cllr. Anne Devitt, a former councillor of the old authority, gave her experience of Dublin County Council from a Fingal point of view. She said it stopped at Dublin Airport and you couldn't get a pipe fixed North of Dublin Airport.

Swords has been neglected for years; it has one of the finest examples of an Archbishop's castle in the Country dating back to 1200 (Swords Castle). It has been in local authority ownership since 1985 and it has only been opened to the public since last year.:rolleyes:

Consultants brought in by the CEO of FCC, Paul Reid, referred to Swords Castle and Park as a 'sleeping giant' and that Swords Main St was not acceptable for a County town. Currently, consolidation works on Swords Castle and demolition of buildings on North Street are being undertaken. Also, there are plans to develop a Cultural Quarter in Swords. The CEO of Fingal Co. Council, based in Swords, is driving the development.

The development of Swords Main Street/North Street/Swords Castle should have happened years ago.

Councillors in Fingal voted down the proposal for a directly elected Mayor due to a fear that the region would be neglected again.

But surely if there was a mayor, the subsequent push for DU, MN would be to the betterment of Swords and Fingal. The Airport is a big driver of economic activity, and Swords benefits from that.

D.L.R.

monument wrote: »

It's nearly the first time I've seen it put that way and I've read a lot on a mayor for Dublin.



Errr... no, it's not.

Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure, Ringsend, Irishtown, Ballyfermot, Inchicore, Crumlin, Drimnagh, Walkinstown, Kilbarrack, Raheny, Donaghmede, Coolock, Clontarf, Fairview, Drumcondra, Cabra, Ashtown, Finglas, Ballymun, Santry, Whitehall, and Glasnevin are all part of the Dublin City Council area and are not in the inner city.

You could fit the inner city 9 or 10 times into the total area covered by the city council.

The most extreme outlier in Co Dublin is DLRCC -- it has ~55% people from parties of the right and a rough guest of independents -- yes, Dublin City has the highest number of left winger, but it is closer to the county wide average than DLRCC.

The average across the four council areas is around 58% or higher of left leaning councillors. It always depends of the individual candidate, but a moderate left or left leaning candidate is likely to have a fairly good change of getting elected.

IF you're hinting at a mayor for the Greater Dublin Area -- that position with the powers that the mayor of London / Greater London Authority has would massively weaken national government on housing, transport, policing.

To put this in context: that'd mean the provision of housing, Dublin gangland crime, Garda stations in the GDA, what happens to the M50, Luas, Irish Rail in the GDA, Dublin Bus etc would all be out of the control of central government -- that's a massive leap, far larger than London made and Dublin is more central to power in Ireland. Turkeys voting for Christmas comes to mind (unless a very powerful turkey think they can get the job).

A person representing the GDA would be representing over 40% of the country's population. That won't just rival minister's powers but it would be viewed as many as the most powerful position besides Taoiseach -- and a GDA mayor could hit an unpopular Taoiseach with the point that he/she was elected.

- Put what way?

- What I mean is DCC is just the inner part of a wider city. Sheesh.

- I don't know what you think I'm saying, but what I am saying is Dublin would function better with a single mayor over all 4 councils. London-level authority? Dream on. I'd just like a strong voice speaking for the city, more integrated planning and a strong lobby for Dublin's interests. Not sure what your beef is here tbh.

D.L.R.

mickmmc wrote: »

Councillors in Fingal voted down the proposal for a directly elected Mayor due to a fear that the region would be neglected again.

Lets be clear what Fingal Councillors did. It wasn't a vote to have/not have a mayor. It was just a vote on whether the public should be asked or not about the principal of an elected mayor.

Fingal decided the public shouldn't be asked.

That whole process was a political stitch up anyway. The vast majority of Dublin voted for a plebiscite.

monument

D.L.R. wrote: »

- Put what way?

mayomaffia said:

Deleted User wrote:

I wouldn't say raise there own in Dublin as they already do it, but prioritise it. Its always the easy choice been made with that money.

There will still be people complaining about not enough social housing in 2020. If there is money available as there appears to be then some of it should be diverted to DU and use the taxes generated from it to fund social housing afterwards. The government's problem with that is they would be punished by the electorate in Dublin and not rewarded. There is no incentive. Its the opposite outside Dublin, a new road or road improvement gets votes as its a lifeline.

You need a lobby group in Dublin that can out shout PBP AAA. and Sinn fein.

And you said that's exactly why people are calling for an elected mayor for all of Dublin... and I was making the point that I've not heard many people calling for a mayor for the reasons mayomaffia outlined.

D.L.R. wrote: »

- What I mean is DCC is just the inner part of a wider city. Sheesh.

I might have been sleepy and thus grumpy...

But you can call me pedantic, if you want, however: calling the Dublin City Council area the inner city is so off. It's somewhat like equating the City of London with the wider city of London.

D.L.R. wrote: »

- I don't know what you think I'm saying, but what I am saying is Dublin would function better with a single mayor over all 4 councils. London-level authority? Dream on. I'd just like a strong voice speaking for the city, more integrated planning and a strong lobby for Dublin's interests. Not sure what your beef is here tbh.

My mistake -- when you said "outer suburbs and commuter belt" I thought you wanted a mayor for the GDA. Also: as I said above: Sleepy and thus grumpy -- Sorry!

Bray Head

Ibec came out the other day saying that Ireland's most pressing transport infrastructure is.........hundreds of kilometres of new roads! Including a brand new one to link Monaghan to Portlaoise and upgrades to well-known transport bottlenecks such as north Leitrim and linking the bustling metropolises of Wexford and Waterford!

Call me a cynic but the firm likely to get a tender for a big rail tunneling project will not be Irish. While the firms likely to get the contracts for 20km stretches of road upgrade here and there will be. Ditto for maintenance.

No one likes vested interests but they will always exist. It's sad to see that virtually no one with the time and money to be able to is making the case for rail in Dublin.

cgcsb

roads with less than 15,000 AADT are being designed to full motorway standard!!! even in rural areas with stagnant/falling population and economic growth. Why is this even allowed? Dublin airport, the Irish people's gateway to the world, has no rail link. The capital city is crippled with road traffic.

LeinsterDub

cgcsb wrote: »

Why is this even allowed?

The vast majority of Dublin people don't seem to care this coupled with the myths of Dublin being too small for underground and rural votes easier "bought".

Idbatterim

In relation to the above. I totally agree. Money no object, massively overcapacity rural motorways and when it comes to Dublin it's the opposite, how can we cut capacity and get away with as little as possible. Not a chance I am voting next time round. The more time goes on , the more you realise they have no ideas vision or intention to change anything!

Here is what they are happy with complain complain complain, rabble rabble rabble. Throw a few euro at everyone in the budget and once power is maintained, well who cares about anything else!

Idbatterim

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The vast majority of Dublin people don'tt seem to care this coupled with the myths of Dublin being too small for underground and rural votes easier "bought".

this is oft trotted out. Yet the same people will be complaining about the horrific congestion again come the Autumn and winter. You think it's a good policy following the opinion of people who haven't got a clue?!



Maybe we should head off to continental cities of similar size with much better transport networks and tell them to shut them down or because they are overkill :rolleyes:

Markcheese

I saw that ibec proposal on the journal.ie
Hurah. ! motorways for all....
The one good thing about it was a plan...and
We never had one for our current motorway system... its just a collection of bypasses and politically promised improved roads to dublin...
Which has further distorted the dublin centerness of the country...its done now though...
Improved roads , great .. motorways and dual carraige ways for all,maybe not.

Ben D Bus

cgcsb wrote: »

roads with less than 15,000 AADT are being designed to full motorway standard!!!

What is considered an appropriate AADT internationally to justify a motorway?

dubhthach

Ben D Bus wrote: »

What is considered an appropriate AADT internationally to justify a motorway?

Lot higher than that, which is at best case scenario is in the range for a Type 2 Dual Carriageway (think Rooskey stretch of N4

The Type 2 dual carriageway is to be considered as a
cross section option at flows in between 11,600
Annual Average Daily Traffic AADT (i.e. the capacity
limit of a standard single carriageway) and 20,000 AADT
in the design year. At the lower end of the range a Type
2 dual carriageway will normally be preferable to a single
carriageway, while at the upper end it could be
considered instead of a dual carriageway

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/Standards_Related_Materials/14-NRA-New-Divided-Road-Types-December-2007.pdf

Type-3's are basically dead in water (2+1)

Of course there's no reason why Dublin can't get Dart Underground/MN while for example the M20 is built (completing proper road link from Galway <-> Limerick <-> Cork), it's really down to choices by politicians and how much "tax give aways" they want to do at Budget.

I'd prefer if they said, we ain't gonna cut USC for next 5 years, the money is gonna be used for plugging infrastructure gaps etc.

Bray Head

Corporation tax whizzed in at over 6 billion last year and will likely surpass it this year.

An educated guess would say 80% of this comes from companies located in the greater Dublin area and Cork city.

Idbatterim

Of course there's no reason why Dublin can't get Dart Underground/MN while for example the M20 is built (completing proper road link from Galway <-> Limerick <-> Cork), it's really down to choices by politicians and how much "tax give aways" they want to do at Budget.

I'd prefer if they said, we ain't gonna cut USC for next 5 years, the money is gonna be used for plugging infrastructure gaps etc.

I totally agree with this. I am absolutely against the abolition of USC and welfare increases...

cgcsb

NI Authorities are pressing ahead with the A5 Dualling project(no doubt with ROI funding). With a motorway spec road between Aughnacloy and Derry you can bet that the screaming for motorway through Monaghan will be deafening.

Current AADT on the N2 south of Aunacloy: 7,000.

This will be done long before DARTu sees the light of day, such is the political landscape.

D.L.R.

cgcsb wrote: »

NI Authorities are pressing ahead with the A5 Dualling project(no doubt with ROI funding). With a motorway spec road between Aughnacloy and Derry you can bet that the screaming for motorway through Monaghan will be deafening.

Current AADT on the N2 south of Aunacloy: 7,000.

This will be done long before DARTu sees the light of day, such is the political landscape.

Build it through Armagh instead and get NI to pay for it

D.L.R.

Realistically though, the only "big ticket" motorway that could interfere with funding is the M20.

There's no other motorway of that scale in the immediate future. In the meantime the economic pressure to build DU/MN will become unavoidable.

cgcsb

D.L.R. wrote: »

Realistically though, the only "big ticket" motorway that could interfere with funding is the M20.

There's no other motorway of that scale in the immediate future. In the meantime the economic pressure to build DU/MN will become unavoidable.

Eh the New Ross bypass the world’s longest three tower extradosed bridge, a type of cable-stay structure for €230m:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/work-on-230m-new-ross-bypass-due-to-begin-in-march-1.2511406

Enniscorthy bypass for €400m:

http://www.irishbuildingmagazine.ie/2015/10/21/sod-turned-on-e400m-m11-gorey-to-enniscorthy-ppp-project/

this cost is likely to increase because they are extending the bypass to beyond the village of oylgate with motorway on a 13,000 AADT road.

Let's not forget the Gort-Tuam debacle and we're also planning a dual carriageway between Westport and Castlebar (9,000 AADT) for the lols.

It all adds up and it'll all be collecting tubleweed.

Ireland's population is urbanising but our government is still following DeVallera's rural centric policy. They need to be put on the dole for a spell before they'll cop on, and we can only do that through the ballot box.

Bray Head

D.L.R. wrote: »

Realistically though, the only "big ticket" motorway that could interfere with funding is the M20.

There's no other motorway of that scale in the immediate future. In the meantime the economic pressure to build DU/MN will become unavoidable.

Aside from the overall volume of spending for capital, there is the issue of composition.

As I may have posted before, politicians and policymakers prefer lots of little schemes (< 100m per annum each) than a smaller number of big ones (DU or MN would cost 500m or so per annum for the duration of construction).

There's a number of reasons for this:
-Risk (cost, archaeological, etc) is spread more widely
-More ribbons to be cut
-Rural politicians seem better able to associate themselves with a project than urban ones
-Smaller (ie Irish) firms more likely to win contracts
-Recognition that the multiplier effect of an imported TBM on the local economy is not very large

Bray Head

I should add that the concept of the complementarity of new infrastructure with existing infrastructure is also completely alien to many policymakers.

DU is a useful tunnel in its own right but it also allows the existing rail network to be used more efficiently.

In fairness I don't think Irish Rail have ever made this case very well either.

hans aus dtschl

I take very slight issue with the thread title, because thinking of my local area, Cork is screaming out for infrastructural investment also.
But it definitely boggles the mind that Gort-Tuam, Enniscorthy bypass, New Ross bypass are seen to have better infrastructural spending merit than the M20, urban housing or public transport systems.

Idbatterim

Ireland's population is urbanising but our government is still following DeVallera's rural centric policy. They need to be put on the dole for a spell before they'll cop on, and we can only do that through the ballot box.

ok and vote in who? With the current options I wont be voting next time round... We are asking people to vote and they vote based on personalities and what they will do locally (i.e. objecting to providing housing in their areas etc, fix a bloody pot hole, whatever...

mickmmc

Sam Russell wrote: »

But surely if there was a mayor, the subsequent push for DU, MN would be to the betterment of Swords and Fingal. The Airport is a big driver of economic activity, and Swords benefits from that.

Yes. However, Swords in particular requires investment in public services. The allocation of Council income for capital spending is a reserved function of councillors and in the past Swords lost out (under Fingal Co. Co and the old authority).

Also, the Swords and Fingal area had no Cabinet Minister during the boom and lost out on direct government funding; the executive is all powerful in Ireland. The last Minister based in Swords was Ray Burke.

The neglect of Swords is going back decades; it never got a Dart link either.

I don't recall the government of the day sitting down with Fingal councillors and dealing with any issues that some councillors had about putting a plebiscite to the people.

The Main St and North St. are not acceptable for a town with a population of 40,000 in the wider area and the consultants pointed that out in their masterplan. The main issue in the 2014 local elections was the neglect of Swords Main St/North St/Swords Castle.

At last there has been a change in the last 2 years; €1m has been allocated to Swords Castle over the next 3 years by councillors. The last government provided €1.5m EU funding. What happened?

Bray Head

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I take very slight issue with the thread title, because thinking of my local area, Cork is screaming out for infrastructural investment also.
But it definitely boggles the mind that Gort-Tuam, Enniscorthy bypass, New Ross bypass are seen to have better infrastructural spending merit than the M20, urban housing or public transport systems.

This is very true. It is large urban centres in general that lose out. One exception might be Limerick which does not have much traffic congestion and a hugely overspecced tunnel under the Shannon.

hans aus dtschl

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

But it definitely boggles the mind that Gort-Tuam, Enniscorthy bypass, New Ross bypass are seen to have better infrastructural spending merit than the M20, urban housing or public transport systems.

There should be no minds getting boggled if these schemes need to be done, were ready to be done and are now getting done. If they were not ready to go at the time that money would likely of been wasted and spent on a non infrastructure item, which is not in the interest of those that want to see infrastructure improve nationwide.

The mind should be boggled that there is not more money spent on infrastructure. Efforts should be focused on diverting money from elsewhere to the infrastructure pot, not from money already in the pot.

snotboogie

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I take very slight issue with the thread title, because thinking of my local area, Cork is screaming out for infrastructural investment also.
But it definitely boggles the mind that Gort-Tuam, Enniscorthy bypass, New Ross bypass are seen to have better infrastructural spending merit than the M20, urban housing or public transport systems.

You can pretty much draw a square between Mallow, Macroom, Bandon and Midleton and inside you have the only economically viable area in the country outside Dublin. It has a GDP of around 30 Billion and a population of around 400K (compared to a GDP of around 10 Billion in Limerick, 13 billion in Connacht and 20 billion in Belfast). Yet this area has received no acknowledgement of this status. It is still lumped in with rural Mayo when we talk about infrastructure and economics as the one great grey mass that is rural Ireland outside the pale.

hans aus dtschl

Deleted User wrote: »

There should be no minds getting boggled if these schemes need to be done, were ready to be done and are now getting done. If they were not ready to go at the time that money would likely of been wasted and spent on a non infrastructure item, which is not in the interest of those that want to see infrastructure improve nationwide.

The mind should be boggled that there is not more money spent on infrastructure. Efforts should be focused on diverting money from elsewhere to the infrastructure pot, not from money already in the pot.

I'm sorry that's just nonsense. We're currently operating in a financial deficit.
Infrastructural vanity projects, even shovel-ready ones, should not take precedent over all other spending, just because someone can't get the critical infrastructure projects off the ground.

I'd hate to think that we've an understaffed A&E somewhere because of the New Ross bypass.
We need infrastructure upgrades, but not "infrastructural projects for the sake of it".

Secondly, regarding projects like DU and M20: these are "not shovel-ready" for political reasons, not for financial reasons.

It makes a mockery of your whole argument. Your attitude is one of "money is being spent, and I'm first in the queue". That shouldn't be how government spending works, it should be based on priority, not ease of delivery. Nobody can convince me that Gort-Tuam is of higher priority than Cork-Limerick tbh.

D.L.R.

snotboogie wrote: »

You can pretty much draw a square between Mallow, Macroom, Bandon and Midleton and inside you have the only economically viable area in the country outside Dublin. It has a GDP of around 30 Billion and a population of around 400K (compared to a GDP of around 10 Billion in Limerick, 13 billion in Connacht and 20 billion in Belfast). Yet this area has received no acknowledgement of this status. It is still lumped in with rural Mayo when we talk about infrastructure and economics as the one great grey mass that is rural Ireland outside the pale.

I don't know the Rebel city that well, but I'll hazard a guess that everyone drives and the traffic is horrendous.

Because all cities in Ireland are treated with, at best, an aloof lack of urgency regards capital investment, and at worst, they're treated with utter contempt from flat earth planners who still deliriously think we can spread our population evenly between each county.

purplepanda

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I take very slight issue with the thread title, because thinking of my local area, Cork is screaming out for infrastructural investment also.
But it definitely boggles the mind that Gort-Tuam, Enniscorthy bypass, New Ross bypass are seen to have better infrastructural spending merit than the M20, urban housing or public transport systems.

Regarding the New Ross bypass, this project also benefits Cork City as well as other south coast regions by totally upgrading & modernising road links & connections to Britain & Europe and removing another traffic deadlock in the region. It is vital for companies involved with import & export overseas.

The Waterford bypass also improved connections & journey times a few years back, I don't see anyone being as critical about that project nowadays & saying it shouldn't have been built.

Has anyone got any financial figures regarding the EU contribution to the NR bypass or even the Waterford bypass?

hans aus dtschl

purplepanda wrote: »

Regarding the New Ross bypass, this project also benefits Cork City as well as other south coast regions by totally upgrading & modernising road links & connections to Britain & Europe and removing another traffic deadlock in the region. It is vital for companies involved with import & export overseas.

The Waterford bypass also improved connections & journey times a few years back, I don't see anyone being as critical about that project nowadays & saying it shouldn't have been built.

Has anyone got any financial figures regarding the EU contribution to the NR bypass or even the Waterford bypass?

I understand the gist of what you're saying, but I'd sooner get a good link between Cork and Waterford. Especially given that Cork has a fully functional port, through which most local shipping goes.
Killergh, Castlemartyr, The Pike, etc all get slow/heavy traffic. Cork-Waterford is 115km and would typically take 100 mins. An average of around 70kmh.
So on that basis I don't think 220 million on the New Ross bypass is a good spend (as far as Cork is concerned) right now. Maybe Waterford needs the New Ross bypass. Maybe it needs it more than it needs a road to Cork? Maybe that's the more viable argument.

I fully accept the New Ross bypass is needed by the way, just as I accept that the Gort-Tuam (and full Western Corridor) are needed.
But somewhere along the line, somebody decided that the spend on these slightly more rural projects was more critical, or at least of equal criticality, to the infrastructural spends in the bigger cities.
And that's coming from politics because from an economic viewpoint the South-East region is a third of the size of the South-West, and only a sixth of the size of Dublin. If you want to maximise economic output, you invest in Dublin/MidEast, SouthWest and West (Dublin, Cork, Galway). Because on the face of it these three are creaking in terms of things like housing and transport, and are becoming more unattractive to multinationals as a result.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/cirgdp/countyincomesandregionalgdp2012/