Star Trek: Discovery - Pre-release discussion [** NO SPOILERS **]

CramCycle

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Dark?

DS9 was very dark at times and it was awesome.

"There are four lights!"

TNG had its moments. The Borg were originally quite terrifying as well until Voyager turned up.

Inviere

CramCycle wrote: »

The Borg were originally quite terrifying as well until Voyager turned up.

This is a common statement, but one I can't agree with. TNG, for all we owe it, began to de-fang the Borg with "I, Borg" (brilliant episode mind), long before Janeway took command of Voyager.

pixelburp

Even if it'd nuke continuity, I'm actually kinda warming to the idea of the Borg in Discovery: prosthetics, CGI and FX in general are so much more sophisticated than they were 20 years ago, coupled with Discovery's greater use of blood & violence, and you could have a truly horrific, terrifying return of the Borg. Looking at the TNG versions and they were kinda goofy with those 'kitchen sink' costumes.

edit: Oh wait, sorry, we're not meant to talk about Discovery

*continues staring*

muckwarrior

The thing that I always found stupid about the Borg was their whole "lets just ignore these intruders on our ship until we think they're a threat" policy. Sure, I guess the first once or twice it was plausible, but after that you'd think they might cop on to the fact that whenever they saw humans in their cube, it meant that there was gonna be trouble, so probably best to just assimilate them.

Goodshape

Inviere wrote: »

TNG, for all we owe it, began to de-fang the Borg with "I, Borg" (brilliant episode mind), long before Janeway took command of Voyager.

That was pretty self-contained stuff though. It might have been interesting to explore the impact that the events in I, Borg and Decent had on the collective as a whole, but we never really saw that. I don't think it was ever actually mentioned or referenced again?

It was definitely Voyager's "fault" for over-using the Borg, but also perhaps Star Trek: First Contact and introducing the idea of a singular Borg Queen, was really the beginning of the end for the Borg as an interesting unstoppable concept villain.

Inviere

Goodshape wrote: »

but also perhaps Star Trek: First Contact and introducing the idea of a singular Borg Queen, was really the beginning of the end for the Borg as an interesting unstoppable concept villain.

I still feel Hugh, showed us that the Borg were perhaps not the tunnel vision assimilating machine we had known and loved, but were, in fact, quite human underneath all the implants. For me, it's definitely where the downfall began. 'Descent' then took it to a new level, and gave us generic baddies in Borg costumes, complete with names and concern for fallen comrades. Obviously Voyager took things even further, but I still feel TNG began the downfall.

CramCycle

Goodshape wrote: »

That was pretty self-contained stuff though. It might have been interesting to explore the impact that the events in I, Borg and Decent had on the collective as a whole, but we never really saw that. I don't think it was ever actually mentioned or referenced again?

It was definitely Voyager's "fault" for over-using the Borg, but also perhaps Star Trek: First Contact and introducing the idea of a singular Borg Queen, was really the beginning of the end for the Borg as an interesting unstoppable concept villain.

True, the borg queen was a great enemy as a one off enemy, but in regards the borg, it kind of took away that unstoppable force idea. The Borg to me you could destroy 99% of them but leave a small cluster somewhere in the Universe and like a plague or virus, they would spread anew. No morals, no feelings, only the job. In my mind they were the perfect vision of communism, everyone has a say and everyone does their job. I always did wonder what they would do if they got everyone. Would they simply go into stasis or just simply continue but really doing nothing.

Goodshape

Inviere wrote: »

I still feel Hugh, showed us that the Borg were perhaps not the tunnel vision assimilating machine we had known and loved, but were, in fact, quite human underneath all the implants. For me, it's definitely where the downfall began.

True enough, but I still felt it took time and effort to 'unlock' Hugh's dormant human qualities. He was also, iirc, disconnected from the collective, which allowed him to grow as an individual for the first time in his life.

It was definitely the first clear departure from Best of Both Worlds' unstoppable killing machines, but it could have been (and I'd argue was) treated as a stand-alone incident with little baring on what came afterwards.

The Borg Queen, on the other hand, showed us that the 'collective' really does have an "I" after all. There was no coming back from that, unfortunately.

'Descent' then took it to a new level, and gave us generic baddies in Borg costumes, complete with names and concern for fallen comrades.

Yeah, "baddies in Borg costumes" is exactly what those guys were. But as such, they had little to do with any Borg we saw before or since.

Inviere

Goodshape wrote: »

(and I'd argue was) treated as a stand-alone incident with little baring on what came afterwards.

Yeah, "baddies in Borg costumes" is exactly what those guys were. But as such, they had little to do with any Borg we saw before or since.

Both were/are singular examples, true...but what they did, was forever alter our perception of the Borg. We perhaps no longer saw them as unstoppable, they had flaws, they had weakness, there was hope...something that was previously non existent. The Borg Queen and Voyager kinda brought the shark to the jumps, but TNG, for me, started the Borg down this road.

Evade

Inviere wrote: »

This is a common statement, but one I can't agree with. TNG, for all we owe it, began to de-fang the Borg with "I, Borg" (brilliant episode mind), long before Janeway took command of Voyager.

I think I, Borg portrays the drones as sympathetic victims instead of the mass killers they were but if anything that makes the Borg as a collective more terrifying. My memories of terrifying Borg may entirely be related to watching the 10pm showing of TNG on Sky one since I was seven. Worf's holographic sparring program enemy was pretty scary back then too.

Inviere

Evade wrote: »

I think I, Borg portrays the drones as sympathetic victims instead of the mass killers they were but if anything that makes the Borg as a collective more terrifying

I think when it came to the Borg, the very less we knew, the better the effect, ultimately.

TheValeyard

I want more Tholians. Or maybe The Organians. And more Gorn.

Greyjoy

Evade wrote: »

I think I, Borg portrays the drones as sympathetic victims instead of the mass killers they were but if anything that makes the Borg as a collective more terrifying.

Agreed, that episode had the same effect on me. It's very easy to treat the Borg as unthinking robots almost but I,Borg reminds the viewer that each drone is in essence a victim of the collective. Their own personalities subsumed under the weight of the hive mind. Now 'Descent' on the other hand is where I think the Borg started to get undermined. Their menace was reduced as they were portrayed as easily duped goons working for Lore.

As for Borg in Discovery? Absolutely not. It's bad enough that they tried to cram them into Enterprise but inserting them into Discovery completely negates the premise of "Q Who" in TNG.

Greyjoy

Greyjoy wrote: »

Agreed, that episode had the same effect on me. It's very easy to treat the Borg as unthinking robots almost but I,Borg reminds the viewer that each drone is in essence a victim of the collective. Their own personalities subsumed under the weight of the hive mind. Now 'Descent' on the other hand is where I think the Borg started to get undermined. Their menace was reduced as they were portrayed as easily duped goons working for Lore.

As for Borg in Discovery? Absolutely not. It's bad enough that they tried to cram them into Enterprise but inserting them into Discovery completely negates the premise of "Q Who" in TNG.

Remember that the Borg timeline was fecked from day one.
The episode where the Romulans come back, with the D looking for the missing colonies was meant to be the initial Borg incursion and they were actually meant to be somewhat of a serialised season villian but the writers strike killed that plan.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Remember that the Borg timeline was fecked from day one.
The episode where the Romulans come back, with the D looking for the missing colonies was meant to be the initial Borg incursion and they were actually meant to be somewhat of a serialised season villian but the writers strike killed that plan.

Weren't they originally supposed to be part of the insect race from Conspiracy? I think they changed them because the makeup wouldn't have worked.

CramCycle

I always wondered were the borg related to Voyager coming back, as in programmed by the same race and maybe the Borg where the ones who got out of control or some such.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

Weren't they originally supposed to be part of the insect race from Conspiracy? I think they changed them because the makeup wouldn't have worked.

There were a few but the current form was from the above storyline.


Also it threw out their planning, suddenly the Federation had a Borg expert in Commander Shelby, the cube was already close by Earth but skipped all the other races surrounding Federation space. Looking at the map the Federation is well surrounded by powers.


Enterpirse putting a causality loop in place solved a lot of these issues (in Trek physics anyway)
Small sections of Federation knew of a cybernetic race, the signal to borg space took that long and they dispatched a ship to investigate. Q knows of this and puts the D in its path to warn the Federation.


Federation is still woefully underprepared mind put that is a overused Trek trope anyway (how many times is there only one ship in range or Earth is totally undefended)

CramCycle

CramCycle wrote: »

I always wondered were the borg related to Voyager coming back, as in programmed by the same race and maybe the Borg where the ones who got out of control or some such.

Or even a corruption of the merging of Vger with Ilia

Edit: imagine if the reveal of the Queen had been Ilia returned!!

Greyjoy

Deleted User wrote: »

Remember that the Borg timeline was fecked from day one.
The episode where the Romulans come back, with the D looking for the missing colonies was meant to be the initial Borg incursion and they were actually meant to be somewhat of a serialised season villian but the writers strike killed that plan.

I don't think that change harmed the Borg in the long run. They don't get the gradual build-up of a threat that they originally would have had. On the other hand Q provoking contact with the Borg years ahead of when the Federation would have 'naturally' encountered them heightens the fact that Starfleet are way out of their depth against this new threat.

Greyjoy

Greyjoy wrote: »

I don't think that change harmed the Borg in the long run. They don't get the gradual build-up of a threat that they originally would have had. On the other hand Q provoking contact with the Borg years ahead of when the Federation would have 'naturally' encountered them heightens the fact that Starfleet are way out of their depth against this new threat.

It doesn't affect the story but leaves plot holes as to why a ship big enough to scoop out colonies along the neutral zone bugger off home and how Shelby was a Borg expert on just the Enterprise logs from the encounter.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Also it threw out their planning, suddenly the Federation had a Borg expert in Commander Shelby,

It's been a while since I've seen Best of Both Worlds but isn't Shelby's knowledge all academic? She studied the colonies lost on the Romulan border, the damage done to the Enterprise in Q Who and whatever sensor information the they collected, and a couple of off screen incidents. It's pretty reasonable that after a year or so of study she's Starfleet's Borg expert.

fxotoole

Evade wrote: »

It's been a while since I've seen Best of Both Worlds but isn't Shelby's knowledge all academic? She studied the colonies lost on the Romulan border, the damage done to the Enterprise in Q Who and whatever sensor information the they collected, and a couple of off screen incidents. It's pretty reasonable that after a year or so of study she's Starfleet's Borg expert.

To the extent that anyone in Starfleet could be an expert. I.E. she’s the only starfleet officer with the most exposure to Borg technologies, tactics, etc. No one else has the level of knowledge she has, so she’s the only choice when it comes to selecting an expert.

Goodshape

Also....

She's ambitious.

Evade

fxotoole wrote: »

To the extent that anyone in Starfleet could be an expert. I.E. she’s the only starfleet officer with the most exposure to Borg technologies, tactics, etc. No one else has the level of knowledge she has, so she’s the only choice when it comes to selecting an expert.

Exactly. Starfleet's expert, not necessarily very well versed.

Goodshape wrote: »

Also....

She's ambitious.

She did make captain before Riker.

Inviere

Evade wrote: »

She did make captain before Riker.

She did??

Evade

Inviere wrote: »

She did??

There's a mention of a Captain Shelby in DS9 and Ronald D. Moore intended for it to be Shelby from Best of both Worlds. There's some legal issue as to whether he could have reused the character but it's just a passing reference so why not?

Inviere

Evade wrote: »

There's a mention of a Captain Shelby in DS9 and Ronald D. Moore intended for it to be Shelby from Best of both Worlds. There's some legal issue as to whether he could have reused the character but it's just a passing reference so why not?

That one must have passed me by, have you a link to anything more on it?

donspeekinglesh

Inviere wrote: »

That one must have passed me by, have you a link to anything more on it?

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Shelby

Slydice

I remember reading that before and it was left open for interpretation.

A new show with Captain Shelby would be good though.

Inviere

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Shelby

Very interesting, I never copped that while watching that episode. Safe enough to assume it's the Shelby from BoBW.

Smertrius

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvuL5jyCHOw this is discovery new song but copyright of sony belongs Lenny Kravitz not cbs

Kirby

By new song do you mean new intro?

Seriously?

CramCycle

I presumed it was just the trailer music and nothing more

WomanSkirtFan8

Smertrius wrote: »

please stop convince to watch this series of star trek its too dark to star trek

Fine. You can leave now. You know where the door is

Goodshape

CramCycle wrote: »

I presumed it was just the trailer music and nothing more

I'm confident it is just the trailer music. It wasn't used on the international / Netflix version of the trailer either.