Captain Marvel (2019)

Mitch Connor

I think the movies suffers from being a prequel origin story - the stakes are low as a result. I don't even think there was really a 'bad guy' in the movie - there are characters that are fought against, but the overall 'enemy' isn't really identified. You would think that is what any pre/sequel will follow up on (leading to Kree surrender as per GotG).

It is very much a story of her origin, and not a very interesting one at that. I don't really think we have seen enough of CM to have an opinion on her, cause at the moment all we really have is a character with 6 years of brain-washed memories and a gut feel for what is right. The CM in Endgame SHOULD be very different, with many years of character growth and an understanding (in herself) of who she is and what she stands for.

Baggly

Thats an excellent point Mitch - hadnt considered it like that.

I felt myself a little disappointed by it, but couldnt put my finger on why. The lack of stakes might just be it!

pixelburp

The problem was the characterisation and emotional for Captain Marvel was almost non-existent, at least not in the final draft: the moment at the end, when

Jude Law & Larson squared off against each other, Law's character trying to goad her into her making a rash, emotional move (only for Marvel to pull an Indiana Jones)

, came out of nowhere and felt completely unearned. There was a mild hint at the very start this might inform her character, but it went nowhere and Carol Danvers literally doesn't change throughout the film. She doesn't learn to control her emotions, powers, bowel movements... the

blasting of Jude Law

was obviously meant to be this big "f*ck yeah!" moment but I was like ... uh, so what?

You compare that with the arcs of other 'flawed' characters, and ... well, there ARE arcs to begin with: Thor leans the real qualities of leadership; Peter Quill learns how behave like an adult; Tony Stark learns the value of not-being-a-jerk, and so on...

Captain Marvel learns ... uh, that she got her powers by fluke?

Baggly

Quill does not learn how to behave like an adult.

RayCun

You could argue that

what Danvers learns during the film is who she really is. At the start of the film, she thinks of herself as the junior member of the team, rash, undisciplined, needing to be told what to do - because that's who she is told she is. During the film, she shows that she is smart and capable, and learns that she always was smart and capable - the people telling her otherwise have been doing so to keep her down. The chip in her neck that they said gave her her powers but was actually limiting them is a physical representation of how they said she was only what they made her, when she was actually better than that all along

RayCun

Pter wrote: »

Quill does not learn how to behave like an adult.

and Tony Stark continues to be a jerk!

Plopsu

Enjoyable but some very sloppy writing and propagandising. Feels a bit like a grift. Makes perfect sense when you're being grifted but the more you think about it afterwards...
Obviously the biggest (shhh.... let's just hope nobody mentions it) problem is that the big McGuffin a lightspeed drive. That would be a big deal to humanity but the other races already have FTL transport.

Just to echo, the de-aging has really come on. Once that's available as an app, I'll have an ipad strapped to my head at all times.

pixelburp

Pter wrote: »

Quill does not learn how to behave like an adult.

Not true; he grows, albeit in fits & starts: compare the egoistical, glory hunting wildcard that starts out in GoTG, who slowly learns to step up and take some responsibility.

Heck, the entire sequel is basically about Quill learning that in his rush to reconnect with his 'true' father, he nearly missed realising he already had one, however unconventional he was (Yondu). As the man himself says, 'he may have been your father boy, but he wasn't your Daddy'.

He remains a bit of a man-child, but it can't be said the films don't give him some ability to grow.

Captain Marvel had / has no character: she literally doesn't change, grow or learning anything new about herself; and no, IMO recovering from amnesia is not growth - it's quite the opposite, given she doesn't actually change in terms of behaviour, mood. Compare Captain Marvel with, say, Jason Bourne and the latter is basically a new version of the same man.

RayCun

pixelburp wrote: »

Not true; he grows, albeit in fits & starts: compare the egoistical, glory hunting wildcard that starts out in GoTG, who slowly learns to step up and take some responsibility.

nah, I don't see Quill becoming responsible. It's more about making connections to other people - an Avengers Assemble rethread, if you like.

Then GotG 2 tests those relationships by testing them against others

pixelburp wrote: »

Captain Marvel had / has no character: she literally doesn't change, grow or learning anything new about herself;

By the same token, neither does Captain America in any of the movies he's been in. The point of the character is that he was a heroic boy scout before he took the super serum, and despite everything that has happened to him since then he remains true to who he was at the start.

Penn

pixelburp wrote: »

Captain Marvel had / has no character: she literally doesn't change, grow or learning anything new about herself; and no, IMO recovering from amnesia is not growth - it's quite the opposite, given she doesn't actually change in terms of behaviour, mood. Compare Captain Marvel with, say, Jason Bourne and the latter is basically a new version of the same man.

But sometimes it's not about learning something new about yourself, but rather staying true to who you are. She always fought to go higher, further, faster. She always fought and when she got knocked down she always got back up.

After she got her powers, the Kree used an inhibitor to keep her down. To not let her fully use her powers in an effort to control her, and keep themselves above her. She became as powerful as she is by choosing to break free of that, to break free of their control and their efforts to keep her down, just like she had always tried to do when told to slow down, or that she couldn't fly combat etc.

That's why when she's challenged to a fistfight by Yon-Rogg at the end, he's doing so because it's the only way he knows he can beat her. So she swats him away like a fly because she's no longer under his control. She doesn't need to prove she can beat him without her powers, because she does have her powers.

Some heroes journeys have been about growth and learning to become someone better, but some can just be about staying true to who you are. As RayCun pointed out, it's also the core of Captain America's first film. Cap didn't become as noble and self-sacrificing as he was because of the serum. He got the serum because that was who he was to begin with. Cap.Marvel got her powers because she volunteered for a mission to help save lives, and destroyed the engine knowing it could kill her because it was the right thing to do. She got her powers through her heroism, and it's her powers and her own internal heroism that enable her to be who she always was.

I'd agree that other characters have had better characterisation in their films, but there are also some who didn't (like Doctor Strange and Ant-Man imo).

The White Wolf

RayCun wrote: »

and Tony Stark continues to be a jerk!

I wouldn't call Tony a jerk lately moreso driven by his internal torment. For me Civil War was hands down RDJ's best performance in the MCU. He got that internal battle within Tony to a T.

pixelburp

Penn wrote: »

But sometimes it's not about learning something new about yourself, but rather staying true to who you are. She always fought to go higher, further, faster. She always fought and when she got knocked down she always got back up.

I dunno, "higher, further, faster" isn't a trait, or a character; people mentioned Captain America, but that was easy to translate into visually arresting metaphors and show a character's personality through their actions. Even when powerless, Steve Rogers stood up to bullies and did the right thing. Before he even got jacked up, the man's personality was self-evident; somewhat contradictorily to my point, the character arc was as much about how Rogers didn't change, insofar as it was about how he did. Power didn't corrupt him. Plus little moments like the scene with the flagpole showed the audience Rogers' inguinity and obvious skills beyond the physical.

Carol Danvers didn't earn her powers, and got a postage stamp montage of a sh*tty dad (though what father

screams at a bleeding child after crashing in a race??

) and some other fleeting moments that didn't really add much. And the fact the audience saw all this before Danvers discovered it, robbed the film of any great surprise or drama.

My main problem with the whole amnesia angle is that Danvers effectively stayed the same person as 'real' Danvers. Like I said, Jason Bourne is a good comparator because there, he was basically ... wait for it... re-bourne into a new person, as he discovered more about his shady past. Discoveries that were new to Bourne parallel with the audience, helping the pace.

And the

Kree sapping her powers

was just ... there? Again, it didn't really translate to much to give a damn about. The big conflict amounted to a literal switch, while Annette Benning earned the easiest paycheque she'll ever pick up.

Ultimately, this wasn't a bad movie, but you could tell the main purpose of this film was to get Captain Marvel onto the chessboard, just for Avengers: Endgame. There was no care or attention given to Danvers, except "she's powerful, watch out!"

Calhoun

Penn wrote: »

But sometimes it's not about learning something new about yourself, but rather staying true to who you are. She always fought to go higher, further, faster. She always fought and when she got knocked down she always got back up.

That's why when she's challenged to a fistfight by Yon-Rogg at the end, he's doing so because it's the only way he knows he can beat her. So she swats him away like a fly because she's no longer under his control. She doesn't need to prove she can beat him without her powers, because she does have her powers.

Some heroes journeys have been about growth and learning to become someone better, but some can just be about staying true to who you are. As RayCun pointed out, it's also the core of Captain America's first film. Cap didn't become as noble and self-sacrificing as he was because of the serum. He got the serum because that was who he was to begin with. Cap.Marvel got her powers because she volunteered for a mission to help save lives, and destroyed the engine knowing it could kill her because it was the right thing to do. She got her powers through her heroism, and it's her powers and her own internal heroism that enable her to be who she always was.

I agree with this to an extent but for

Cap i believe he had to earn his powers and be the good man but he also had to learn that war wasn't a fairytale and there were consequences of getting involved. So yes while he stayed the same he had very challenging moments that for the wrong person could have sent him on the wrong path.

I also think that from what we have seen in the MCU they never leave the heroes journey to one film. Iron man for example changed in the first and then again in Iron man 3 leading up to civil war. So Captain Marvel still has time for a more significant story to be told to show her character.

Slydice

George R.R. Martin Says Captain Marvel Could Eat Iron Man for Lunch and Have Thor for Dessert
https://io9.gizmodo.com/george-r-r-martin-says-captain-marvel-could-eat-iron-m-1833385775

Captain Marvel has a lot of fans. Now, you can count Game of Thrones creator George R.R. Martin among them.

Martin recently took time out of his Winds of Winter writing (hopefully) to check out the latest film from Marvel Studios, and then posted about it on his blog:

George R.R. Martin wrote:

The movie is hugely entertaining. I look forward to seeing how the Marvel teams uses the captain in the forthcoming Avengers movie. Once she comes fully into her powers, she is far and away the most powerful character in the MCU. She could eat Iron Man for lunch and have Thor for dessert, with a side of Dr. Strange.

Thanos is in trouble now.

The White Wolf

I'll take his word for it given he's more versed than me.

Mitch Connor

pixelburp wrote: »

Not true; he grows, albeit in fits & starts: compare the egoistical, glory hunting wildcard that starts out in GoTG, who slowly learns to step up and take some responsibility.

Heck, the entire sequel is basically about Quill learning that in his rush to reconnect with his 'true' father, he nearly missed realising he already had one, however unconventional he was (Yondu). As the man himself says, 'he may have been your father boy, but he wasn't your Daddy'.

He remains a bit of a man-child, but it can't be said the films don't give him some ability to grow.

Captain Marvel had / has no character: she literally doesn't change, grow or learning anything new about herself; and no, IMO recovering from amnesia is not growth - it's quite the opposite, given she doesn't actually change in terms of behaviour, mood. Compare Captain Marvel with, say, Jason Bourne and the latter is basically a new version of the same man.

The movie takes place over like 3 days. How much growth are you expecting, and when did she recover from amnesia? I thought she just knew she can't fully remember but I don't think she became Carol again.

I do think they need to show a new side of her in end game and future movies. She will have had time as herself, pursuing her goals and ideals, to form who she really is. I don't think we have been given a proper character yet. We haven't had the time with a person knowing who she is yet. Which is a problem with the movie.

Also, I'd say that yondu stuff was completely unearned or built within the movies. Some stupid lines between them didn't do it.

If anything I'd say it was his rush to connect with family that he didn't see the family he had with the guardians. Yondu had f all earned beats.

GavRedKing

Seen it last night, a solid 6.5/10 comic book movie for me.

It sets up why and how she got her powers and showed a bit of the early Fury/Coulson relationship and why Fury trusts him so much.

Its probably the weakest origin movie in the franchise and it would run IM 3 and Thor 2 close for the poorest movies Marvel have made so far but its not all that bad.

Theres a few things im not entirely sure about but the most obvious one comes from the mid credit scene that might be explained in Endgame

How did the remaining Earth bound Avengers come across the pager Fury had for Marvel before he was dusted?

ArthurG

GavRedKing wrote: »

Theres a few things im not entirely sure about but the most obvious one comes from the mid credit scene that might be explained in Endgame

How did the remaining Earth bound Avengers come across the pager Fury had for Marvel before he was dusted?

Presumably

they were able to find it given it was lying beside his car and manbag?

Baggly

Scanning for weird signals leaving the planet?

El Duda

I think the main issue with this film is that while it was admirable to come at the origin story from a different angle, glossing over some of the typical tropes meant that it was hard to relate to Carol Danvers as a character.

It was ambitious for them to gloss over the crucial milestones in her upbringing; karaoke, box car racing etc... by using memory search flashbacks. The problem is that it doesn't give the audience any meat to hook onto. Some of those scenes needed to be expanded on. I appreciate the attempt to avoid what would most likely have been pretty cliché, but a mainstream audience needs some of that.

Also, the way she just remembered things without any ceremony. Like when she remembered her nickname for the little girl. They chose not to have a 'moment of realisation' cliché and instead just drop the line without warning.

Appreciate the attempt of subverting expectations but not sure it quite worked. It's a midtable MCU entry imo.

I did enjoy it though and i'm going to see it again tonight with the Mrs.

GavRedKing

Ya, it could be something as simple as a tracker on his car or as suggested, signal projecting throughout the galaxy that they've relayed, Banner is still around too so some of their advanced tech will still be operational or at least serviceable with him on Earth.

abcabc123123

GavRedKing wrote: »

How did the remaining Earth bound Avengers come across the pager Fury had for Marvel before he was dusted?

Presumably as a senior officer in whatever SHIELD is called now, when he vanished other agents would have gone straight to his car to try to find him.

Have seen Cap Marvel twice now and I still think it's great. Much more interesting than all the other origin stories that clone the Iron Man template and in the top half of MCU films for me overall.

GavRedKing

One thing I was fearful of is how powerful they were going to make Carol, in the end she was still coming to terms with her power.

but at a whim, she was able to destroy giant Kree ships, on the other hand she was still "challeneged" by Yonrogg, Minerva and her Kree companions.

It'll be interesting to see what shes learned in about 2 decades since leaving Earth and how she can control her power and if in the mean time, she had any back story with the Kree/Skrull that they might touch on in Endgame to fill in the gap.

nix

I'm pretty sure this is the first marvel film (in the current marvel verse), that i genuinely just didnt like. I like Brie Larson, but she was terrible for this, im not sure if its just being void of emotion is Danvers thing, but its just i felt she was on auto pilot and added nothing to any of her scenes..

The whole movie just felt all over the place, it was also void of any charm or comedic wit, I barely laughed during the whole movie, Maybe some at Mendolsohns character, I'm usually chuckling away during these movies, not this time

Nick fury was also terrible, he looked great, but any movement he made in the movie just looked wrong, standing up after petting the cat for instance, holding his knee to help himself get up, he just looks like old man jackson!

And the whole

cat

thing was woeful, like i was watching an episode of scooby doo when they started going off with that

blue note

It was as "meh" a marvel film as I've seen. I'd be a big fan of them in general and the only two I didn't really like were thor 2 and iron man 2. But there area a few very average ones - hulk, gotg 2, avengers 2, doctor strange. And this was at the lower end of that pile for me.

I really liked the main skrull - I found him very funny. Young fury was decent. I didn't love the cat, the kree were alright as baddies. Annette benning was utterly wasted. The action was decent, but there was never any real feeling of peril. Ronan just arrived at the end, fired a few nukes, captain marvel blew them up and that was that. I think the biggest problem though was at captain marvel was boring. I wouldn't blame bree larson for it, but the character just wasn't as much fun as thor or iron man or captain America. I'd say she'll be fine in an ensemble cast, but for a standalone film she's not great.

Baggly

I think she needs peers to bounce off of for humour? Like noone in this movie could touch her, even before she were super saiyan. Maybe having a hulk or thor or thanos around will make the character a little more substantial and offer juxtaposition to her awesome power?

I was sitting there going 'she is more powerful than this' so there weren't stakes.

God it was pointed out to me here the other day and the more i think about it the more obvious it is!

Plopsu

Yeah, the Deus Ex Feline was a bit rubbish (but seems to be a lot of people's favourite part of the movie). There was the possibility of a Winter Soldier level movie in here (soldier finds out that the people she's been fighting are basically being ethnically cleansed) but they didn't even try for it.

Baggly

Actually Black Mirror did a similar story line with a soldier being brainwashed through tech to wipe out a people.

Obviously a different tone to the MCU, but an example of where the bait and switch left you with actual emotional impact.

Drumpot

GavRedKing wrote: »

Its probably the weakest origin movie in the franchise and it would run IM 3 and Thor 2 close for the poorest movies Marvel have made so far but its not all that bad.

I presume you meant IM2 that was frogsh*t bad?

I thought IM3 was not amazing but quite enjoyable

GavRedKing

Drumpot wrote: »

I presume you meant IM2 that was frogsh*t bad?

I thought IM3 was not amazing but quite enjoyable

I think both were poor but had far less time for IM3, that could be because it was the next film after Avengers and it just felt very flat because of it.

Drumpot

GavRedKing wrote: »

I think both were poor but had far less time for IM3, that could be because it was the next film after Avengers and it just felt very flat because of it.

I can see that, I remember not being too excited when it came out and didn't find the twist particularly shocking. . IM3 was no WS , CW, GOTG or ever TR but its actually decent bit of fun on repeat viewing.

But IM2 is always dogsh*t, no matter how you watch it . .

flazio

I always find whenever talking about which is the worst ever MCU movie, everyone forgets The Incredible Hulk exists. Even Marvel Studios.
That has to be the clear winner.
I have to agree with the sentiment that the goose was more like something out of Men in Black rather than the MCU.

blue note

flazio wrote: »

I always find whenever talking about which is the worst ever MCU movie, everyone forgets The Incredible Hulk exists. Even Marvel Studios.
That has to be the clear winner.
I have to agree with the sentiment that the goose was more like something out of Men in Black rather than the MCU.

I thought the incredible hulk was alright. At a minimum better than thor 2 and iron man 2. I'd have it on a par with this, doctor stange, avengers 2, gotg 2.

pixelburp

One thing in the 'bad' films favours - which mostly seem to be misfires from Phase 1 & 2 - they looked better; the more recent MCU films are so god-awfully flat and boring to look at. Flat, bland compositions with flat, dead colour palettes in flat, bland locations. That the big Team Fight in Civil War took place at an airport terminal was a nadir for me. I kept waiting for the fight to be suddenly moved to somewhere more interesting, but ... nope. Grey, grey grey.

The White Wolf

Haha you have to love your average fan. A battle at an airport is too boring yet Zack Snyder allegedly ruined childhoods with his destruction porn. It's hard to please.

As far as pure drama goes the airport scene in Civil War is as good an action scene that you're going to see.

pixelburp

The White Wolf wrote: »

Haha you have to love your average fan. A battle at an airport is too boring yet Zack Snyder allegedly ruined childhoods with his destruction porn. It's hard to please.

As far as pure drama goes the airport scene in Civil War is as good an action scene that you're going to see.

Well I never even mentioned Synder, so think you're having your own debate there. Nor did he ruin my childhood, destruction is a completely different problem but ... that's not the point?

Having a big battle in a car park was a bland, boring location for, as you say, the films most dramatic moment. The Phase 1 movies had a bit of vibrancy and colour about them; then at some point (Winter Soldier?) that simple cinematic flourish took a backseat for bland, slightly dreary visuals.

It's not asking much to bring a little life into a comicbook movie, if nothing else it might stop the MCU feeling so samey and rote.

kerplun k

pixelburp wrote: »

That the big Team Fight in Civil War took place at an airport terminal was a nadir for me. I kept waiting for the fight to be suddenly moved to somewhere more interesting, but ... nope. Grey, grey grey.

Sorry to butt in, but I thought that scene was one of, if not the, best moments of the MCU. Okay, you didn’t like it, each to their own and all that, but too call it the lowest point of civil war is crazy.

pixelburp

kerplun k wrote: »

Sorry to butt in, but I thought that scene was one of, if not the, best moments of the MCU. Okay, you didn’t like it, each to their own and all that, but too call it the lowest point of civil war is crazy.

Which again, was not what I was saying. The airport scene had a boring, grey setting and typified just how bland and mundane the pallette / settings had become, particularly with the Russo films.

I'm talking the aesthetics here, not the content. I thought that was clear enough the first time around.

In an era of SpiderVerse, I'd like to see the MCU go back to at least giving its films some panache and vitality in its images.

Baggly

They all can't be in a super collider/ triskellion / floating city.

Sooner or later they were gonna fight in an airport.

pixelburp

So if the mundanity continues we'll eventually find ourselves watching Avengers 8: Tesco Wars I guess?

Baggly

pixelburp wrote:

So if the mundanity continues we'll eventually find ourselves watching Avengers 8: Tesco Wars I guess?

Don't be so facetious. You know they don't number avengers films.

kerplun k

pixelburp wrote: »

Which again, was not what I was saying. The airport scene had a boring, grey setting and typified just how bland and mundane the pallette / settings had become, particularly with the Russo films.

I'm talking the aesthetics here, not the content. I thought that was clear enough the first time around.

In an era of SpiderVerse, I'd like to see the MCU go back to at least giving its films some panache and vitality in its images.

It’s been a long time since I last seen it, so just watched that scene now and admittedly, it is very... grey. I actually never noticed it before

SpiderVerse does set the bar tho, It’s visually stunning and really pops off the screen.

DesperateDan

Color palette was perfect. Toned down / sparse airport let us focus on the characters. If it was in times square or on another planet we would be lost. Not only does it let the audience focus on what the Russo's can do when they flex their action sequence muscles, it also let super-colorful spidey dominate the scene.

I think most people can agree that intro was peak cinematic spiderman.

Calhoun

I love this thread, arguing over something as simple as an airport and im still learning something about the MCU.

pixelburp

DesperateDan wrote: »

Color palette was perfect. Toned down / sparse airport let us focus on the characters. If it was in times square or on another planet we would be lost. Not only does it let the audience focus on what the Russo's can do when they flex their action sequence muscles, it also let super-colorful spidey dominate the scene.

I think most people can agree that intro was peak cinematic spiderman.

I think that underestimates the audience a little: it's fair to say that by Civil War "we'd seen it all," and if James Gunn managed to stage character + action within the MCUs wildest and most esoteric setting, without sacrificing visual splendour, the Russos could have found somewhere a little more engaging. Epic, even.

Setting and aesthetics are not mutually exclusive to character, in fact the great movies use the visual language of cinema to sell whatever emotion or drama we're meant to be feeling / experiencing through geography, colour, sound etc. They're all tools for manipulation.

I'd argue that in setting the fight in such a drab, flat exterior location, with such flat lighting, it left the Civil War fight feeling undercooked, kinda insignificant. Like a couple of gangs scrapping behind a bar. Maybe the Russos just thought the goodwill and love for the characters was enough - and to be fair the solo scrap between Cap & Iron Man looked much better (but precisely because the setting was visually arresting, brutal and harshly lit. The setting served the action)

The Russos deserve so much credit for making Infinity War work, but these are comicbook movies! The films should be bold, brazen and colorful IMO. One of the best character is a literal taking racoon, I think the palette can handle a little extravagance in its earth settings.

El Duda

Saw this again last night. Enjoyed it even more this time. A lot of my reservations were a bit misplaced.

The de-aging effect is incredible. Let's hope The Irishman is up to this standard.

Baggly

I made a joke about Tesco Wars in the Endgame discussion thread and it just clicked with me that Pixel made that joke here and not there and no-one there knows what im talking about.

Happy Thursday!

pixelburp

Pter.

Nobody ever has any idea what you're talking about.

Baggly

That too is an excellent point.

Mitch Connor

pixelburp wrote: »

Well I never even mentioned Synder, so think you're having your own debate there. Nor did he ruin my childhood, destruction is a completely different problem but ... that's not the point?

Having a big battle in a car park was a bland, boring location for, as you say, the films most dramatic moment. The Phase 1 movies had a bit of vibrancy and colour about them; then at some point (Winter Soldier?) that simple cinematic flourish took a backseat for bland, slightly dreary visuals.

It's not asking much to bring a little life into a comicbook movie, if nothing else it might stop the MCU feeling so samey and rote.

Really?

Avengers: Infinity War
Guardians of the Galaxy 2?
Spider-Man Home-Coming?
Ant-Man and the Wasp?
Doctor Strange?
Thor Ragnarok?

Bland and Dreary?

Completely disagree.