Marvel's Black Panther (2018)

Agent Coulson

I found Zemo & Vulture actually good bad guys as they actually had a reason to want revenge just like Killmonger.


I can see why each one of them can justify the decisions they have made.

Foxtrol

Agent Coulson wrote: »

It's heading for the 5th largest opening in US box office history.

Great for Marvel/Disney for not only this movie but this has likely drawn in new viewers for the Avengers this summer

IncognitoMan

Agent Coulson wrote: »

I found Zemo & Vulture actually good bad guys as they actually had a reason to want revenge just like Killmonger.


I can see why each one of them can justify the decisions they have made.

Yeah his motives are good sure, but he doesn't do anything particularly interesting in the film with those motives.

Like I said he's almost just a way for them to transition between scenes and move plot to the next point. Which is fair enough because CW has a lot of stuff to get through in its run time. Just the fact that he's doing stuff as a revenge for his dead family isn't enough to make him interesting, at least for me.

It's not a huge problem as Zemo isn't meant to be what CW is about anyway. He's just a background character really.

Agent Coulson

IncognitoMan wrote: »

Yeah his motives are good sure, but he doesn't do anything particularly interesting in the film with those motives.

Like I said he's almost just a way for them to transition between scenes and move plot to the next point. Which is fair enough because CW has a lot of stuff to get through in its run time. Just the fact that he's doing stuff as a revenge for his dead family isn't enough to make him interesting, at least for me.

It's not a huge problem as Zemo isn't meant to be what CW is about anyway. He's just a background character really.

The stuff he is doing is what leads to the Civil War that’s all the character is there for really and he does that.

CW as a film isn’t about the big bad it’s about the split of the Avengers and Zemo is the catalyst for that split so he does his job for the MCU.

FunLover18

Zemo works because he's not a villain the Avengers have to fight, he works behind the scenes, manipulating events so that they turn on each other. I can't even remember when they realise he is the villain, is it in Siberia?

I liked Killmonger and I thought his motives we're really interesting but his "plan" was so stupid. It really lessened his impact for me.

Foxtrol

FunLover18 wrote: »

Zemo works because he's not a villain the Avengers have to fight, he works behind the scenes, manipulating events so that they turn on each other. I can't even remember when they realise he is the villain, is it in Siberia?

I liked Killmonger and I thought his motives we're really interesting but his "plan" was so stupid. It really lessened his impact for me.

What part of the plan was stupid for you?

biko

Must say I liked it.

IncognitoMan

Agent Coulson wrote: »

The stuff he is doing is what leads to the Civil War that’s all the character is there for really and he does that.

CW as a film isn’t about the big bad it’s about the split of the Avengers and Zemo is the catalyst for that split so he does his job for the MCU.

I agree. That's why I said he was little more than a prop.

Way below Vulture and Killmonger. He's more Ronan the Accuser level. Wouldn't put him as low as whatever the main bad in Thor the dark world was called though.

FunLover18

Foxtrol wrote: »

What part of the plan was stupid for you?

The

we'll give advanced weaponry to all the downtrodden people of the world and that will solve everything

part.

Foxtrol

FunLover18 wrote: »

The

we'll give advanced weaponry to all the downtrodden people of the world and that will solve everything

part.

Disagree.

He never said that

giving them advanced weaponry

would solve everything.

His long term aim was for Wakanda to 'rule the world' and that they could then solve everything. The arming was the first step in that and by doing so he was following the method successfully used by large countries (or as he calls 'colonialists') for centuries; providing cash or weapons to rebels/freedom fighters/terrorists (depending on your point of view) with the aim to anywhere from destabilising your enemy to overthrowing their current government. If you want examples you can look from South America, to Africa, to the Middle East, to even the foreign supporters of the IRA who many times were coincidentally enemies of Great Britain.

Wakanda has superior technology to the rest of the world but being a very small nation. I don't think they were so far advanced to just go out and wage a straight war with everyone (especially in the MCU with the improved weaponry of the US government and the associated heroes). Attacking some destabalised nations would however be a somewhat easier proposition.

I guessed that was going to be your gripe but I'd agree more if it was the beginning of his plan. He would have had about the same chance of success if

he just shot Klaw the first time he met him rather than go through the risk of the museum heist, that Black Panther catches or kills Klaw and brings him straight to Wakanda during the casino scene or chase, or that something goes wrong during the prison break.

Cut all that out and we have a pretty short movie so I'm not complaining.

Mr E

I don't get the love for this. It was only OK. Some good set-pieces, but the story wasn't great.

I don't understand how some people are saying that this is one of the best Marvel movies.

Arghus

After making my dutiful pilgrimage to the local cinema to see the latest of Marvel's offerings, I can say I enjoyed it and it's well up there in the conversation with the best that their Movieverse has to offer, even if there's a kind of bittersweet rather than complete pleasure in seeing it come close to greatness at times, but then eventually to slip back into familiar territory when the story eventually can't think of anywhere more interesting to go.

I had a bad feeling about twenty minutes into the movie - there were bad accents and worse CGI on display and a what felt like forced humour that wasn't actually landing - but I went with it after a while and the movie got much better when it eventually hit its stride in the second act. The central dilema felt important and complex and the characters all had their reasons: it was pretty thoughtful stuff, by huge comic book adaptation standards. The dramatic elements of the film were, for me, much more engaging than the the action seqences, which I thought were, on the whole, fairly forgettable. And there was some nifty and we'll realised World Building and not too much shameless cross promotion for coming Marvel attractions: so a success.

Welll, a qualified success. There's much to praise in Black Panther, but it's a pity that none of these Marvel movies have yet managed to find a way to truly satisfy from beginning to end: the final third is a extended battle off, once again. And while it obviously took great effort and millions upon millions to bring it to the screen - God, we've been here before. I find all these final act showdowns to be profoundly boring at this stage; thry're the moments in all these films when you can clearly see all the gears and cogs whirring away in the machine, in order to robotically wrap it up bring us all to the credits.

Which is a real pity because when Black Panther does work it feels alive and different and if it managed to stay on that path it could have really been a game changer - as opposed to just having greatness in it.

FunLover18

Foxtrol wrote: »

Disagree.

He never said that

giving them advanced weaponry

would solve everything.

His long term aim was for Wakanda to 'rule the world' and that they could then solve everything. The arming was the first step in that and by doing so he was following the method successfully used by large countries (or as he calls 'colonialists') for centuries; providing cash or weapons to rebels/freedom fighters/terrorists (depending on your point of view) with the aim to anywhere from destabilising your enemy to overthrowing their current government. If you want examples you can look from South America, to Africa, to the Middle East, to even the foreign supporters of the IRA who many times were coincidentally enemies of Great Britain.

Wakanda has superior technology to the rest of the world but being a very small nation. I don't think they were so far advanced to just go out and wage a straight war with everyone (especially in the MCU with the improved weaponry of the US government and the associated heroes). Attacking some destabalised nations would however be a somewhat easier proposition.

I guessed that was going to be your gripe but I'd agree more if it was the beginning of his plan. He would have had about the same chance of success if

he just shot Klaw the first time he met him rather than go through the risk of the museum heist, that Black Panther catches or kills Klaw and brings him straight to Wakanda during the casino scene or chase, or that something goes wrong during the prison break.

Cut all that out and we have a pretty short movie so I'm not complaining.

I think it's definitely a problem with the pacing and the film not giving itself enough time to flesh out his plan. It's a shame the marketing gave away the fact that

Killmonger was the main antagonist and got his hands on a BP suit because for the first half I was wondering how they were going to get there. I see what you mean about his plan but I genuinely didn't get the impression he'd thought that far ahead, for instance he himself worked with the US government putting down the rebels and freedom fighters so I feel he should know that just giving them better weapons isn't going to cut the mustard. I also didn't get any sense of who exactly he was going to give them to, like where were those ships going? Did he have contacts already set up?
Again a lot of this is due to the fact that his rise to the throne was fairly rushed in the final act. Even his rise to the throne though, I don't understand why he chose not to wait and have a proper audience for the challenge,
claim his right and beat T'Challa in front of the nation. Burning all the heart shaped flowers as well was stupid even by villainous standards and shows a complete lack of forward planning.

It just didn't work for me, as I said previously I did like the film but I didn't love and whilst I'm definitely going to have to rewatch it at some stage, I'm not in any hurry to at the moment.

the_syco

FunLover18 wrote: »

Burning all the heart shaped flowers as well was stupid even by villainous standards and shows a complete lack of forward planning.

It'd mean that no-one could become the

Black Panther

after him, and thus he'd be the last

king

.

=-=

I found the entire movie tame, and somewhat pointless.

FunLover18

the_syco wrote: »

It'd mean that no-one could become the

Black Panther

after him, and thus he'd be the last

king

.

=-=

I found the entire movie tame, and somewhat pointless.

What if someone challenged him in the future? What if someone spikes his drink with the power draining potion? Also, surely a super serum is the kind of weapon you could use in your upsrising.

the_syco

FunLover18 wrote: »

What if someone challenged him in the future? What if someone spikes his drink with the power draining potion? Also, surely a super serum is the kind of weapon you could use in your upsrising.

Well, that's just it. If someone else

became king, they'd be king

in name only, minus any

superpower strength

.

pixelburp

It was the first MCU film in a while that didn't feel so rigidly wedded to the rest of the cinematic universe, so that in of itself made for a welcome change, being able to sit back and enjoy a superhero film that was its own thing & not simultaneously trying to set-up 3 other films down the road. As such, the characters, setting and story had more room to breath and establish themselves; the cast in particular more charismatic and compelling than a lot of more recent, non-comedy based films (I'm thinking here of the shuddering mediocrity that defined the MCU's blander entries such as Dr. Strange or Ant-Man).

That said, as usual the third act went off the rails, devolving into messy fight scenes that featured pretty terrible FX (though at least the climax didn't involve a big laser firing into the sky, so hey, I guess that's sort of an improvement for the genre?), while in general this felt like the first Earth-bound MCU film where my credulity finally checked out. Don't get me wrong, no-one should ever mistake the MCU for hard Sci-Fi, and many parts of the franchise are flooded with bullsh*t science, but Black Panther leant too heavily into vibranium being a universal super-element. I could be mistaken, but until this movie it was 'just' a super-metal, useful for shields and robots with a God complex, but now it's a shortcut to Star Trek technology; hell I'd be surprised if Wakandans don't stir the stuff into their tea, it's apparently that multi-purpose.

TheIrishGrover

Mr E wrote: »

I don't get the love for this. It was only OK. Some good set-pieces, but the story wasn't great.

I don't understand how some people are saying that this is one of the best Marvel movies.

I don't think it's the best but I did enjoy it. It's up there with the better movies (Iron Man 3, Thor 1 & 3, Captain America 2) As opposed to Iron Man 2, Age of Ultron or The Incredible Hulk.

The point I was trying to say earlier was that I enjoyed the film, was pleasantly surprised by how much fun it was as it could have been dour and over-serious. But is it going to change the world? Nah. It's a good popcorn movie

Foxtrol

FunLover18 wrote: »

I think it's definitely a problem with the pacing and the film not giving itself enough time to flesh out his plan. It's a shame the marketing gave away the fact that

Killmonger was the main antagonist and got his hands on a BP suit because for the first half I was wondering how they were going to get there. I see what you mean about his plan but I genuinely didn't get the impression he'd thought that far ahead, for instance he himself worked with the US government putting down the rebels and freedom fighters so I feel he should know that just giving them better weapons isn't going to cut the mustard. I also didn't get any sense of who exactly he was going to give them to, like where were those ships going? Did he have contacts already set up?
Again a lot of this is due to the fact that his rise to the throne was fairly rushed in the final act. Even his rise to the throne though, I don't understand why he chose not to wait and have a proper audience for the challenge,
claim his right and beat T'Challa in front of the nation. Burning all the heart shaped flowers as well was stupid even by villainous standards and shows a complete lack of forward planning.

It just didn't work for me, as I said previously I did like the film but I didn't love and whilst I'm definitely going to have to rewatch it at some stage, I'm not in any hurry to at the moment.

Thankfully I try to only ever watch the first trailer for blockbuster movies so tend to either avoid or forget specific elements that may spoil the plot. Tried to do it that way since the first Avengers and it spoiled Hulk catching Iron Man during the final scene.

I agree he did speed through his 'here's my evil plan' but most of your questions above were directly answered in that very short period.

I think they stated he worked for the US government to both put down and cause those types of revolutions so he knew what he was doing. Worst case they failed and they have plausible deniability which they wouldn't have had he just had Wakanda wage a direct war with the US. He states that if they are going to ever make a move they have to do it soon because the rest of the world is catching up with them in their technology.

The ships of weapons were going to the Wakanda spies (aka War Dogs) they had in each country, like his father was in the US. They called out that some of them pushed back at the idea but the ones that were ready and willing were those in London, New York, and Hong Kong (possibly coincidentally also happen to be the cities of the Sanctums from Dr Strange). They would then work with the local populations to distribute the weapons and make plans to rebel.

He could have waited the month for nation to be ready but why would he? His desire wasn't to just rule and be loved by Wakandans. Surely it was wiser to take on T'Challa while he was still off-balance with shock/angry about the situation rather than after a month of prep.

Burning all the flowers could have gone either way. Yes, there are ways he could have lost his powers and not been able to get them back but if he started the burning process 5 minutes earlier T'Challa would have likely died and never had his powers be restored to beat him.

I think I enjoyed it a bit more than you but I similarly don't have the desire I recently had with Marvel movies to see them again in the cinema. I haven't quite put my finger on why that is.

Foxtrol

pixelburp wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, no-one should ever mistake the MCU for hard Sci-Fi, and many parts of the franchise are flooded with bullsh*t science, but Black Panther leant too heavily into vibranium being a universal super-element. I could be mistaken, but until this movie it was 'just' a super-metal, useful for shields and robots with a God complex, but now it's a shortcut to Star Trek technology; hell I'd be surprised if Wakandans don't stir the stuff into their tea, it's apparently that multi-purpose.

Up until now they didn't have much of it to work with or test. Even if they knew the other uses, they only had enough to make a shield and that was back in the 40's.

Agreed they seem to use it for everything but if you look at our world and see how much we use iron then we aren't far off them (though we also don't put it in our tea). Look at history and the differences in how quickly civilizations comparatively advanced when they moved from stone to bronze to iron. They went straight from stone to vibranium and they aren't even that far advanced in MCU terms.

Agent Coulson

I would hope that when Thanos attacks Wakanda

for the Infinity Stone that is what is super powering the Wakanda more than the Vibranium itself and when the Stone is taken they are then only left with the technology they have now and can't progress any further.

Varik

Agent Coulson wrote: »

I would hope that when Thanos attacks Wakanda

for the Infinity Stone that is what is super powering the Wakanda more than the Vibranium itself and when the Stone is taken they are then only left with the technology they have now and can't progress any further.

Director said

they don't have one.

Penn

Agent Coulson wrote: »

I would hope that when Thanos attacks Wakanda

for the Infinity Stone that is what is super powering the Wakanda more than the Vibranium itself and when the Stone is taken they are then only left with the technology they have now and can't progress any further.

The only stone left is the Soul Stone, so it wouldn't make sense for it to be powering the advancement of Wakanda. If they were going to introduce it as being in Wakanda it likely would have been used as part of the visions after the king challenge fight.

constitutionus

its been the best explanation for why thanos is invading wakanda in the trailer though.

so my money would be on the soul gem being burried at the heart of the vibrianium mound- que a scene in infinty war where the big purple guy fights all the way to it.



i DONT think its powering their technology though but that doesnt mean its not responsible for mutating the plant life to confer the power to talk to your dead ancestors. i mean its' LITRALLY set up for that. in fact you could say consuming plant life in wakanda is responsible for inspiring its technological growth instead. live there long enough and ya start getting all sorts of ideas.

hell for all we know the source of its science could be down to the drugs the panthers have taken over the centurys and what its done to their minds.
cap got smart off the super soldier serum, no reason the heart flower cant do the same.

AMKC

So finally got to see this today. I enjoyed it but thought it took a little while to get going. I thought there was a simple enough story in it but also it raised issues like were they right to keep all this wonderful technology they had to themselves or should they share it as well with the rest of the world and what happens when said power and tech falls under a corrupt or angry leader or one with no idea how to use it aka just like Trump.
I agree parts of the end of it was tedious but some parts were good too.
I would give it 7 out of 10.

Agent Coulson

‘Black Panther’ to Top ‘Justice League’ Total U.S. Box Office in Just 4 Days

https://www.thewrap.com/black-panther-makes-justice-league-prey-box-office/

Slydice

Review by How it should have ended saying it was great:

Mickeroo

Mickeroo wrote: »

The key to getting away with criticising the film without being called racist is not to say anything racist in the review.

Not anyone, let's be honest. Accusations get flung about far too readily nowadays.

pinkypinky

I really liked it. Solid, great origin story, showing a lot of research - those ritual scenes! Really different sort of film for Marvel and it worked.

Got to agree with others about Martin Freeman's accent being really incongruous though.

pixelburp

pinkypinky wrote: »

I really liked it. Solid, great origin story, showing a lot of research - those ritual scenes! Really different sort of film for Marvel and it worked.

Got to agree with others about Martin Freeman's accent being really incongruous though.

I think it's the same with Benedict Cumberbatch & the distracting 'twang' he does with his US accents. I suspect it's just down to those quintessentially 'English' actors ala Freeman and Cumberbatch, and how we're a bit conditioned to expect their clipped English tones instead of an obviously fake Stateside accent.

El Duda

Black Panther - 7/10

Another solid Marvel film that explores new ideas, locations and cultures. It's great to see a mammoth action blockbuster with an predominantly black cast doing so incredibly well at the box office. It's a credit to Marvel and their willingness to take risks. 5-10 years ago this film would have been very different or perhaps wouldn't have even got off the ground.

It deals with and tackles some really mature themes that I don't think a younger audience will be able to keep up with entirely. There has been an incredible attention to detail from the film makers/script writers to respectfully incorporate race, slavery, colonisation, ancient African proverbs and transcendental experiences into the story. It is a highly ambitious project that really pays off.

It was a little slow to get going, probably a few too many characters and it feels like quite a bit was cut out and left on the editing room floor. Performances are solid all around and there is no real weak link. Another good Marvel film.

hadepsx

I thought it was rubbish tbh. And that scene where he is shown the communication gadgets etc by his sister? was like something straight out of a James bond film. Stumbled to get going and then staggered to a poor end.

Josey Wales

hadepsx wrote: »

And that scene where he is shown the communication gadgets etc by his sister? was like something straight out of a James bond film.

That's exactly the vibe they were going for.

hadepsx

Why?? Its not a bond film. I went to see a black panther film.

alchemist33

The more I think about Killmonger, the more I imagine him saying "Did I save the horse, or did the horse save me?"

FunLover18

hadepsx wrote: »

Why?? Its not a bond film. I went to see a black panther film.

One character introducing gadgets to another is always going to draw Bond comparison so they may as well lean into it.

FunLover18

Also Bond has been massive influence on the action genre. Good luck finding a film in any genre that doesn't make you think of another film in that genre.

jooksavage

Thought it was great. Damnit, between this, GOTG and Thor, Marvel really are getting it right when it comes to comic book adaptions. There seems to a bit of a trend here - the more obscure the comic, the better the movie.

Insect Overlord

FunLover18 wrote: »

Also Bond has been massive influence on the action genre. Good luck finding a film in any genre that doesn't make you think of another film in that genre.

The closing credits were very Bond-esque too.

david75

What a really weird film. Yay representation and that’s great but to make it all about tribalism and then that one scene with the lads going ugga ugga at Freeman’s character ???? Followed by a ‘we’re all vegetarians’ (werenot savages/cannibals) joke to put the nail in the coffin?
Really really bizarre. Almost totally different for marvel though so it has that going for it.

ZeitgeistGlee

Saw it last night, after all the hype I came away thinking it was thoroughly average. 5.5/10 feels about right.

The plot was simple and predictable, a lot of the characterisation was shallow, and the CGI was fairly inconsistent. I really wish Marvel

didn't feel the need for all their origin stories movies to be based around the hero fighting a dark version of themselves.

I did like the sister's sneakers joke tho. :pac:

ObeyGiant

jooksavage wrote: »

There seems to a bit of a trend here - the more obscure the comic, the better the movie.

I think that's kind of the point - there's less 'weight' with these obscure titles, so the filmmakers can afford to focus on character and plot instead of just ticking off the list of things they have to include or else the fans will lose their minds.

I personally thought Black Panther was pretty good! Didn't think it was as amazing as other people are claiming, but that's okay because I'm not the primary audience.

And even just saying "I'm not the primary audience" for a Marvel film feels pretty good!

Varik

Think Killmongers objective was pretty weak, he'd good motivation but part 2 of his plan was stupid.

Up there with Ironmonger/obadiah stane for stupid plans.

Riddle101

Watched it tonight and thought it was great. After seeing BP, Thor and Guardians of the Galaxy 2 I can honestly say I can't wait for Infinity War. They've done a fantastic job bringing these movies to life.

ancapailldorcha

I absolutely loved this. Went to my local Cineworld looking to kill a few hours but this is the best Marvel film since Civil War IMO. Great visuals, a solid cast, a hint of political intrigue and solid amount of lore added to the MCU. Maybe it's because the titular character is relatively unknown in the MCU but this seems like the sort of film Marvel can put out when they take chances.

TerrorFirmer

Maybe I'm missing something but I thought this was really average. Not terrible - or even bad - in fact, really entirely entertaining, but just very cliche, predictable and fairly bland for considerable stretches as well as culminating in yet another boring, predictable, end battle. I also thought the CGI was inconsistent, as was the script and humour.

Considering I found Thor: Ragnarok incredible and deserving of an 8 or 9 out of 10, it seems only fair that by comparison I'd consider Black Panther a 5.5 or thereabouts. Doesn't mean I didn't find it entertaining, but I expected a lot more and it's definitely one of the weaker Marvel films for me. Bit surprised at the rave reviews it's been getting and I feel some people are being way over generous because of what it is, rather than how inherently good it actually is.

Useful.Idiot

Varik wrote: »

Think Killmongers objective was pretty weak, he'd good motivation but part 2 of his plan was stupid.

Agreed, definitely thought they could have done better with him.

I don't really watch superhero flicks but the hype drew me into this one and even though imo it didn't meet the hype it was a solid enjoyable movie with a beautifully created different angle in the form of Wakanda.

One thing which really bugs me is that a country as advanced as Wakanda still allows leader selection by combat alone. Of course someone's going to be insane and win leadership without further challenge

Agent Coulson

With all the hype around this I have to feel very sorry for Wesley Snipes/Blade.


Snipes Blade lead the way for Superhero movies as we know them now and he was Black strong and kick ass and twenty years ahead of the hype around Black Panther.


Blade was violent bloody and kick ass and what we all hoped Superhero films would be Deadpool gets the hype for bring an R-rated Comicbook film to the screen but again Blade was there first.


Long live Blade.

Agent Coulson

Agent Coulson wrote: »

With all the hype around this I have to feel very sorry for Wesley Snipes/Blade.


Snipes Blade lead the way for Superhero movies as we know them now and he was Black strong and kick ass and twenty years ahead of the hype around Black Panther.


Blade was violent bloody and kick ass and what we all hoped Superhero films would be Deadpool gets the hype for bring an R-rated Comicbook film to the screen but again Blade was there first.


Long live Blade.

Wasn't Blade a Marvel standalone?
Could they retro it into the MCU?

I had this very conversation today with people saying it was a change to see a black superhero