Upcoming Payrises/cuts

TheDriver

2 Circulars have been issues by the DESk regarding LRA
http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0045_2016.pdf
http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0042_2016.pdf

Basically, the CP hours are being changes so that 8 next year and 10 the following year don't have to be whole school. At least its a step in the right direction as the rest will mostly be PT, staff meetings etc and hence no sitting around talking about talking meetings.
The other circular highlights the upcoming pay increases for TUI members. Points to note:
1) If you are in a community college or community school, TUI members must complete the 1 page form and return to payroll otherwise you are assumed to be non TUI. The Dept are classifying everyone as either TUI or non TUI so I assume it includes non union members. Vocational schools are assumed to be all TUI members.
2) If you benefitted (I say this word in a sarcastic tone) from the >65k cut and the S&S cut and only got hit with one of the cuts, they are taking this "benefit" away from ASTI members because it was apparently part of the last pay deal. This will hit senior staff members.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2016-07-19a.689 No CID until after 4 years for ASTI members

deiseindublin

Excuse my ignore but what's the difference between ETB/non designated Comm. Colleges and a Designated Comm. College?

r93kaey5p2izun

deiseindublin wrote: »

Excuse my ignore but what's the difference between ETB/non designated Comm. Colleges and a Designated Comm. College?

Designated CCs are run by ETB but have a religious patron involved in the BOM also. They would have a chaplain.

TheDriver

Plus comm colleges come from amalgamations or local influence on bom.

r93kaey5p2izun

TheDriver wrote: »

Plus comm colleges come from amalgamations or local influence on bom.

I don't understand this. Most ETB schools are community colleges. Most are not Designated (there are only around 40 Designated Community Colleges in the country). The local influence you refer to sounds more like the Community & Comprehensive sector than community colleges.

All the new ETB schools I'm familiar with are called community colleges but none are from amalgamations or local influence. They are just straight forward ETB run schools set up due to growing population.

The need to declare TUI membership in the circular refers only to Designated Community Colleges and Community&Comprehensive sector schools.

deiseindublin

That's what I was confused by Arlessienne!

It breaks my heart to have to declare membership of TUI!

mirrorwall14

I popped a mail to our principal to ask if we needed to declare or not. All our staff are TUI and we are a community college under the ETB. He's not sure

r93kaey5p2izun

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I popped a mail to our principal to ask if we needed to declare or not. All our staff are TUI and we are a community college under the ETB. He's not sure

Do you have a chaplain?

mirrorwall14

Not as far as I'm aware but our guidance would organise non denominational services at the end of the year. I think we have a bishop on the BOM though

r93kaey5p2izun

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Not as far as I'm aware but our guidance would organise non denominational services at the end of the year. I think we have a bishop on the BOM though

Designated Community Colleges have a full time chaplain. I think you would probably know if you had one.

mirrorwall14

Yeah I don't know though if one of our guidance counsellors is actually "officially" a chaplain just no label on the door so to speak.

TheDriver

Does your BOM have reps from another organisation e.g. Diocese

r93kaey5p2izun

Several ETB schools have religious representatives on their BOM but are not Designated Community Colleges so are not included in this requirement. (Community Schools which are also included are run by ACCS but may have ETB as a trustee - but again, they will all have a chaplain.)

I really think you would know if there was an actual chaplain - the role is highly promoted in the relevant schools and there are all sorts of official guidelines around their work (the fact they are not counsellors is even highlighted) and even placement of their office is regulated. I don't think a school could have one without it being made very clear to the school community.

A principal will know if their school is a Designated Community College operating under a Deed of Trust with the Archdiocese or not. The local union branch should also be able to clarify.

deiseindublin

We have a full time lay chaplain but pretty sure it's not designated.

TheDriver

Principal should definitely know as there would be an agreement document that would be part of a BOM document.

r93kaey5p2izun

deiseindublin wrote: »

We have a full time lay chaplain but pretty sure it's not designated.

As far as I was told the only schools wuth a full time funded chaplain are Designated Community Colleges and Community Schools. Try checking the About page or BOM page on the website - it usually says it there too.

deiseindublin

Couldn't be arsed Arlessienne - not being rude but depresses me enough that we voted Yes so I'm not going ruining my holidays wondering about a 'pay rise' I didn't actually want. Still pisses me off every time I think of it.

deiseindublin

Got letter from ETB this morn with a form to complete if I'm TUI. Anybody else?

MrJones1973

The TUI have accepted LR that means acceptance of all curricular change/dumbing down. Your new recruits wont get much a few quid and a **** pension. The only way teaching will really reverse things is a strike. I have only 13 years left teaching but this profession will gradually be ruined. JC reforms will be extended to LC. More and more bull**** and a derisory salary for new entrants.

clunked

In response to Mrwhite1970 I looked at an OL paper in my own subject from the year I did my Leaving Cert and to be honest I was shocked at how the paper has been dumbed down in the intervening years. Secondly if the TUI and INTO refuse to stand up for the teaching profession as they have laid themselves prostrate to each cutback and 'initiative', its no surprise that teachers are been walked over by a Department of Education and successive ministers.

GSOIRL

deiseindublin wrote: »

Got letter from ETB this morn with a form to complete if I'm TUI. Anybody else?

If your colleagues are forced to go on strike will you cross a picket line? I would suggest signing this form equates to the same thing.

r93kaey5p2izun

GSOIRL wrote: »

If your colleagues are forced to go on strike will you cross a picket line? I would suggest signing this form equates to the same thing.

I am not comfortable signing the form and would like to support ASTI but it is not as clear cut as you say. TUI members will now, unlike ASTI, have to complete CP hours and should issues arise around S&S in Sept, then TUI members will still have to do it even if ASTI issue a directive. TUI members will have no union protection if they don't go along with the LRA, unlike ASTI members.

Now, if it was possible for me to join ASTI and be protected by them I think you would have a point but I cannot join ASTI so I think it very unreasonable to expect individuals to go against their union and leave them unprotected in dispute with their employer.

GSOIRL

Pierce Curved Variation wrote: »

I am not comfortable signing the form and would like to support ASTI but it is not as clear cut as you say. TUI members will now, unlike ASTI, have to complete CP hours and should issues arise around S&S in Sept, then TUI members will still have to do it even if ASTI issue a directive. TUI members will have no union protection if they don't go along with the LRA, unlike ASTI members.

Now, if it was possible for me to join ASTI and be protected by them I think you would have a point but I cannot join ASTI so I think it very unreasonable to expect individuals to go against their union and leave them unprotected in dispute with their employer.

Fair point. I was just posing the question and was not trying to have a go at you.

rainbowtrout

GSOIRL wrote: »

If your colleagues are forced to go on strike will you cross a picket line? I would suggest signing this form equates to the same thing.

GSOIRL wrote: »

Fair point. I was just posing the question and was not trying to have a go at you.

Your original comment is fairly inflammatory though. I'm TUI and voted No to LRA. But it was voted through. I'm in a designated community college where the union split is about 80: 20 TUI/ASTI.

As a member of TUI I am bound by the agreement that was voted through. Complying with the terms of that agreement (despite what my own personal vote was) is not equivalent to crossing a picket line.

If ASTI go on strike and teachers in dual union schools cross the picket to work, then that is crossing a picket. Nothing else is.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Your original comment is fairly inflammatory though. I'm TUI and voted No to LRA. But it was voted through. I'm in a designated community college where the union split is about 80: 20 TUI/ASTI.

As a member of TUI I am bound by the agreement that was voted through. Complying with the terms of that agreement (despite my own personal vote was) is not equivalent to crossing a picket line.

If ASTI go on strike and teachers in dual union schools cross the picket to work, then that is crossing a picket. Nothing else is.

I'd disagree, the picket is for whatever union you\re affiliated with. Like we didn;t boo the building contractor when he turned up to fix the leaky roof! Similarly, like if the secretaries were part of IMPACT or some other trade union I wouldn't have a problem if they were told to go to work and they did. It can get a bit nasty if staff are being turned against each other (like when the greyhound refuse company had a picket amongst drivers and the office staff were berated for turning up to work (berated is the toned down version of what actually happened)).

The fight is between that particular union and the opposing side, no one else should be dragged into it. But what does worry me is if management are in a certain union and decide to open the school against their own union (it did reportedly happen the last time.. anecdotally). Then they should be turfed out of the union.

r93kaey5p2izun

Sometimes unions come to an agreement that going into work during one union's strike is not crossing the picket. That's what happened during our last two strike days - Impact and Mandate had an agreement with TUI/ASTI. If such an agreement was arranged between TUI and ASTI in the event of a strike then I would go to work - but if no such agreement existed I would not cross the picket. I don't think it is comparable to signing the union membership form.

rainbowtrout

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I'd disagree, the picket is for whatever union you\re affiliated with. Like we didn;t boo the building contractor when he turned up to fix the leaky roof! Similarly, like if the secretaries were part of IMPACT or some other trade union I wouldn't have a problem if they were told to go to work and they did. It can get a bit nasty if staff are being turned against each other (like when the greyhound refuse company had a picket amongst drivers and the office staff were berated for turning up to work (berated is the toned down version of what actually happened)).

The fight is between that particular union and the opposing side, no one else should be dragged into it. But what does worry me is if management are in a certain union and decide to open the school against their own union (it did reportedly happen the last time.. anecdotally). Then they should be turfed out of the union.

Respectfully, I'd disagree. I was brought up in a household where you did not cross a picket. I would feel strongly about that. As I said I am bound by the result of the TUI ballot, but if ASTI go on strike and there is a picket at my school, I will not pass the picket.

Just the same as if the employees in the local supermarket were on strike for whatever reason, i wouldn't cross their picket to do my shopping.

Pierce Curved Variation wrote: »

Sometimes unions come to an agreement that going into work during one union's strike is not crossing the picket. That's what happened during our last two strike days - Impact and Mandate had an agreement with TUI/ASTI. If such an agreement was arranged between TUI and ASTI in the event of a strike then I would go to work - but if no such agreement existed I would not cross the picket. I don't think it is comparable to signing the union membership form.

If such an arrangement was put in place, then you have a slightly different scenario. Actually when that happened the secretary in my school requested that she be given work to do in the ETB offices that day rather than pass the picket at the school. It might be semantics but she wasn't going to pass us come hell or high water to go into the building even if there was an agreement in place.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Respectfully, I'd disagree. I was brought up in a household where you did not cross a picket. I would feel strongly about that. As I said I am bound by the result of the TUI ballot, but if ASTI go on strike and there is a picket at my school, I will not pass the picket.

Just the same as if the employees in the local supermarket were on strike for whatever reason, i wouldn't cross their picket to do my shopping.

I suppose I wouldn't have that dilemma as I'm not in a dual school (and once the principal etc are in the same union too then the whole school is 'closed' ), and I wouldn't pass a picket as a customer myself too (i.e. dunnes stores etc).

out of interest then Rainbowtrout... if you were in a dual school and the ASTI went on strike and you were TUI and required to come in to work would you ring in sick?

rainbowtrout wrote: »

If such an arrangement was put in place, then you have a slightly different scenario. Actually when that happened the secretary in my school requested that she be given work to do in the ETB offices that day rather than pass the picket at the school. It might be semantics but she wasn't going to pass us come hell or high water to go into the building even if there was an agreement in place.

Would your colleagues on the picket have shunned the secretary if she had been required to show up for work that day and did show up?
I'm sure there were many schools where the ancillary staff had to show up during the last strike.

There were a few non-union members in our school who had to write a letter to say that they were 'willing and able' to turn up for work last time (even though the school was shut). They could have foregone the money but all of them did sign up to it and got paid for the day even though they were specifically told that it was technically 'passing a picket'! Also, it was sad that some of the younger NQT non-union members actually took the p*** out of us 'having to show up for a picket' while they stayed at home and got paid. And then the same NQT's and non-union teachers were hounding the union rep in the school for advice on CID's/contracts and unfair treatment etc...

rainbowtrout

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I suppose I wouldn't have that dilemma as I'm not in a dual school (and once the principal etc are in the same union too then the whole school is 'closed' ), and I wouldn't pass a picket as a customer myself too (i.e. dunnes stores etc).

out of interest then Rainbowtrout... if you were in a dual school and the ASTI went on strike and you were TUI and required to come in to work would you ring in sick?

But that is the exact situation. I am TUI in a dual union school. I dunno, I'd tell the principal the day before that I wouldn't be passing the picket and see what happens then. I'd probably be put down for uncertified sick I'd imagine.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Would your colleagues on the picket have shunned the secretary if she had been required to show up for work that day and did show up?
I'm sure there were many schools where the ancillary staff had to show up during the last strike.

There were a few non-union members in our school who had to write a letter to say that they were 'willing and able' to turn up for work last time (even though the school was shut). They could have foregone the money but all of them did sign up to it and got paid for the day even though they were specifically told that it was technically 'passing a picket'! Also, it was sad that some of the younger NQT non-union members actually took the p*** out of us 'having to show up for a picket' while they stayed at home and got paid. And then the same NQT's and non-union teachers were hounding the union rep in the school for advice on CID's/contracts and unfair treatment etc...

No, they wouldn't have shunned the secretary or any of the ancillary staff, but none of them were willing to pass the picket.

To be honest if there were NQTs speaking to me like that about having to be out on picket duty, I'd go through them for a shortcut. No one in my school would pass a picket based on the experience I've had there for 15 years.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But that is the exact situation. I am TUI in a dual union school. I dunno, I'd tell the principal the day before that I wouldn't be passing the picket and see what happens then. I'd probably be put down for uncertified sick I'd imagine.



No, they wouldn't have shunned the secretary or any of the ancillary staff, but none of them were willing to pass the picket.

To be honest if there were NQTs speaking to me like that about having to be out on picket duty, I'd go through them for a shortcut. No one in my school would pass a picket based on the experience I've had there for 15 years.

That's a good point, you can see why a lot of the more senior permanent teachers were 'encouraged' to retire. All that experience gone and not passed on. It's like starting all over again.

rainbowtrout

Gebgbegb wrote: »

That's a good point, you can see why a lot of the more senior permanent teachers were 'encouraged' to retire. All that experience gone and not passed on. It's like starting all over again.

Yes, a lot of those teachers came through the 80s when strikes were common and unions were strong. That has been chipped away over the years and while NQTs have the right to complain about eroded conditions, as we know the majority still won't go to a union meeting. If they became the voting majority, then they might see change.

I think many people who grew up in the 80s (and earlier) would have had it instilled in them not to pass a picket. New staff who are only out of college and haven't grown up with that experience can be fairly apathetic to it having never experienced it. Not in all cases of course, but just as a general trend. The NQTs in your school signing to say they are available for work is one thing, but laughing at you for having to picket shows some lack of empathy and just general ignorance really.

I've seen people on here in the past when we were striking, complaining about losing a day's pay. Yes, I know people are struggling to pay bills and mortgages and money is tight, but sometimes there has to be some sacrifice and in the long run, one day's pay is worth more than say CP hours for 40 years. But many people are only thinking of their own situation, even when the alternative will affect them in a negative way for far longer.