[article] RTE poised to charge Sky to carry channels

Apogee

Sunday Times wrote:

Denis Naughten, the communications minister, is planning new legislation that would allow RTE to charge Sky, Virgin and Eir to carry its programmes.

Naughten will also bring proposals to government in September to increase the amount of licence fee funding paid by the Department of Social Protection to the national broadcaster, and to restore the full state subsidy to TG4, which would give back the station €9.24m in licence fee revenue.

The minister is also in discussions with the data protection commissioner about giving An Post access to ESB and property tax household databases to boost enforcement of the TV…

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rte-poised-to-charge-sky-to-carry-channels-6l9mh337z

First mooted by Curran a while back:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92947483

And similar moves in the UK:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=85729819

jackinthemix94

Who even watches RTE? Let them drop it...

icdg

Well over 30% audience share and 15 of the top twenty programmes last year, is the answer to that...

It would appear that the collolary of this will be that the "must offer" and "must carry" rules will also be removed, which is a significant change.

A history lesson.

In the early days of digital TV, the ITV companies decided that they wouldn't allow their service on Sky. This was at a time when Carlton and Granada were running the Ill fated DTT service, ONdigital, in direct competition. Sky kept a space on the EPG with a message "press TV then 3 for ITV". ITV found that it's viewership dropped considerably in Sky homes. People no longer casually tuned into the channel; they'd still watch "appointment to view" programmes, but lost out on "flicking". Eventually they relented and joined Sky.

That's the risk you take, going off the pay TV EPG, and relying on households to change platforms from their default. It will result in a loss of viewers. Even more so in urban cable or ex-cable homes, who don't have rooftop aerials.

Harry Palmr

This is a very low risk change in the Irish market, sure plenty don't watch RTE beyond the news and some sport but plenty more do so SKY Ireland, Virgin and Eir (whatever that is) presumably will pay up lest subscribers discover they have soarview in HD for the RTE channels for free.

gordongekko

jackinthemix94 wrote: »

Who even watches RTE? Let them drop it...

Seriously????

jackinthemix94

Yeah just old people that don't have news apps lol. Who waits all day for some second rate TV presenters to tell them thew news?! 24 hour world now .

icdg

Rather than feeding the troll, lets maybe address the topic at hand

galtee boy

But don't Sky give RTE free carriage ? So if RTE want, say 3m per year from Sky, what's stopping Sky saying , " fine here's your 3m, but by the way, it's 4m for the transponder costs that we've been paying all along for you " ?

Sam Russell

If the minister is serious, he might start by freeing RTE from the strictures imposed by Minister Carey in the dying days of the ill-fated FF regime the died in 2011. This might allow RTE to decide whether children's programmes have a place on RTE 2 when RTE Jr already carries them. Also advertising on RTE NN might allow a proper news channel to carry proper news.

He might also consider strengthening the 2RN offering of Saorview by making the HD resolution obligatory for public service channels (RTE 1, RTE 2, TV3, TG4, and UTV i). He also might free-up the constraints on the charging structure on Saorview - the emphasis on bandwidth has cause poor PQ.

He might also require Saorview to drop all its sneaky ways and allow series link, and other tricky bits to be dropped.

He might now, so he might.

BoJack Horseman

If it came down to a price rise vs dropping the RTE channels I'd much prefer the latter.

Probably will be the former though, retaining these channels are a key aspect of Sky's offering.

STB.

icdg wrote: »

Well over 30% audience share and 15 of the top twenty programmes last year, is the answer to that...

It would appear that the collolary of this will be that the "must offer" and "must carry" rules will also be removed, which is a significant change.

Do you think so ? I'd say it will only be slightly amended to say agreed charge.

Of course this means that Eir and Virgin are next.

For years I have been of the view that subscription companies shouldn't be getting free content to bolster their numbers, especially when waiving the platform neutrality flag.

The UK stations started the ball rolling some time back when they got the carriage fee dropped.

icdg

The repeal of "must offer" is explicitly mentioned in a more detailed piece in yesterday's Sunday Times, which if I could find on their awful website (and it's a pity is so bad, because their iPad app is the best newspaper app I've ever seen) I'd link to - it's behind a paywall anyway.

You have to remove the rule for this idea to work. Otherwise who decides what the fair price is? Platforms are barely regulated any more, and Sky's not regulated in this jurisidiction anyway

As I say, I personally don't think it's a good idea, although the Sky-RTE deal was originally done at a point when the rule only applied to cable (and, for TV3 only, MMDS).

Sam Russell

I think the 'must offer, must carry' should apply to the whole Saorview product. That is - the broadcast platform must take all Saorview channels as is - or nothing. This could result in the payTV platforms paying sufficient to cover the Saorview transmission charges, thus allowing all major channels to be in HD with perhaps +1 variations.

10000maniacs

Sky should call their bluff. Remove RTE from the epg.
They called the BAI's bluff when they tried to regulate Sky content to Ireland in 2005.
Sky just said "go away" and the BAI just went away. Didn't have a leg to stand on legally.

mikeym

If Rte is removed from the Sky Epg I will certainly not be paying for a tv licence.

We would be going back to the dark ages if Rte is removed from Sky.

channelsurfer2

It would just mean Sky/Virgin etc would hike the subscription by 2-3euro per month if it happens. Who would blink first though in terms of the pricing charged. They would hardly drop RTE from the platforms for very long if they loose custom.

Harry Palmr

mikeym wrote: »

If Rte is removed from the Sky Epg I will certainly not be paying for a tv licence.

We would be going back to the dark ages if Rte is removed from Sky.

RTE will still be there you know - stick a bit of co-ax in your tv aerial input and you'll have RTE in HD.

lertsnim

mikeym wrote: »

If Rte is removed from the Sky Epg I will certainly not be paying for a tv licence.

We would be going back to the dark ages if Rte is removed from Sky.

Unfortunately for you it doesn't work that way.

The Cush

Apogee wrote: »

First mooted by Curran a while back:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92947483

And similar moves in the UK:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=85729819

The UK situation changed earlier this month when the government published a report on the issue of retransmission fees which basically closed the door on pay TV platforms paying the PSBs for retransmitting their channels at this time.

The report basically says the commercial PSBs are fairly compensated by their prominent position in the epgs and guaranteed access to spectrum, with reserved capacity on DTT multiplexes, in effect zero net fees.

If the situation changes in future the government reserves the right to look at it again. To allow for this they are to repeal section 73 of the Copyright, Design and Patents Act 1988 which allowed cable operators to retransmit PSB programming without payment. The Bill to repeal the section was published on July 5th.

Decent Skin

I'd have no real issues if it were dropped; almost never watch RTÉ on Sky, because the HD version on Saorview is a million times better than Sky's HD-Ready version.

Elmo

The report basically says the commercial PSBs are fairly compensated by their prominent position in the epgs and guaranteed access to spectrum, with reserved capacity on DTT multiplexes, in effect zero net fees.

This should be enforce here, BAI are very week when it comes to EPG positioning. AFAIK the EPG guidelines are only developed for Saorview and not other providers. and rather than being regulations they are only guidelines. pointless really for saorview.

PSB in the UK could ask for payment for addition channels outside bbc 1, 2, itv, c4 and c5?

gordongekko

Of course this is all up in the air now. With Brexit there may be restrictions placed on uk stations broadcasting into the remaining EU states.

Capt'n Midnight

gordongekko wrote: »

Of course this is all up in the air now. With Brexit there may be restrictions placed on uk stations broadcasting into the remaining EU states.

Aren't SKY based in Luxemburg for tax avoidance reasons ?

The Cush

gordongekko wrote: »

Of course this is all up in the air now. With Brexit there may be restrictions placed on uk stations broadcasting into the remaining EU states.

Brexit will have no effect on frequency coordination and the services carried. This is done bilaterally and multilaterally between national administrations, both inside and outside the EU, under ITU Radio Rules. It will be up to the UK to decide, post brexit, what EU broadcasting, spectrum regulations, etc. they wish to implement. Much of this work is already done within CEPT, the pan-European telecoms body, for the EU.

icdg

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Aren't SKY based in Luxemburg for tax avoidance reasons ?

Not true - Sky are a public limited company incorporated under the laws of England and Wales, and their headquarters is in Iselworth, Middlesex.

SES, who own the actual satellites are based in Luxembourg . There is no suggestion this is for tax reasons , and as I understand it, is because the Luxembourg state played a part in their founding - their liberal broadcasting laws may have helped.

Brexit won't have a major effect on broadcasting IMO, and in any case no political boundary can defeat the laws of physics. The satellite hasn't been invented that will cover the entirety of the U.K. and not also Ireland.

gordongekko

There may be a tax on the importation of goods and services from the UK unto Europe which may make these channels not viable for broadcasting a irish opt out service.

icdg

icdg wrote: »

SES, who own the actual satellites are based in Luxembourg . There is no suggestion this is for tax reasons , and as I understand it, is because the Luxembourg state played a part in their founding - their liberal broadcasting laws may have helped.

OT I know but, if I recall, their co-founder Candace Johnson was married to an ambassador of Luxembourg so that would have played a big part too.

Apogee

Sunday Independent wrote:

Pay-TV operators Sky and Virgin Media should pay RTE up to €30m a year in order to carry its channels, according to a report by UK experts.

TG4 and TV3 could also benefit to the tune of €8m annually, based on a detailed analysis of the financial benefit to Sky and Virgin of carrying free-to-air stations, the most watched channels on these platforms.

Communications Minister Denis Naughten is reviewing Irish broadcasting legislation and is considering introducing retransmission fees.
The report, by London-based media consultants Mediatique, commissioned by RTE, was released to the Sunday Independent under FOI after an initial refusal was appealed.
...

http://www.independent.ie/business/media/sky-and-virgin-should-pay-rte-30m-to-carry-its-tv-channels-35424101.html

Sam Russell

Perhaps Sky at al could pay for Saorview and then all channels would be in HD.

€12 m per year it costs to run two muxes. We could afford three muxes if Sky paid for it, then all channels would be in super HD.

The Cush

Apogee wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/media/sky-and-virgin-should-pay-rte-30m-to-carry-its-tv-channels-35424101.html

Flashback to 2014

Irish Times, Nov 2014

A UK consultancy firm called Mediatique was hired earlier this year to conduct research that will help the broadcaster – and the Government – “understand much more clearly who creates value for whom in the relationship between Irish terrestrial broadcasters and the major pay-TV platforms operating in Ireland”.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/rt%C3%A9-seeks-new-deal-on-transmission-fees-1.1992826

_Kaiser_

Sam Russell wrote: »

Perhaps Sky at al could pay for Saorview and then all channels would be in HD.

€12 m per year it costs to run two muxes. We could afford three muxes if Sky paid for it, then all channels would be in super HD.

I'd rather they spent the money on channels rather than picture quality myself. Let's face it, anyone who values HD content/channels isn't relying on Saorview for it

I'd prefer to see Saorview be a real Freeview/Sat-style alternative to pay TV than the 2/3 OK-ish channels.. and the rest... that it is now.

If they could come to some arrangement for the addition of BBC, ITV (unlikely with Virgin/Sky I know!) and C4 and worked with hardware providers on a proper Sky+/Humax HDR style box and EPG then it might actually be worth the €12m.

Do we know what proportion of households use it as their primary/only viewing means anyway?

The Parish Priest.

uk channels having carriage on saorview is Never going to happen

_Kaiser_

The Parish Priest. wrote: »

uk channels having carriage on saorview is Never going to happen

I know, and given that the majority of people are served by cable or Sky anyway, I don't see the point in spending much more than the essentials on maintaining it.

Even if it was UHD on all channels, it's still not going to make the actual content (most of which is available elsewhere if it's any good) any better

Sam Russell

Well, if the carriage was paid for, the France 24, Al Jazeera, and a few others could go on air as there would be no IP rights. Maybe even BBC News. Also, Oireachtas TV might make a full time addition, even including Dail committees and County Council proceedings.

The important thing is Saorview is free, and Sky is not. At the present time, Freesat is also free - but only because of over spill. Who knows what might follow Brexit.

jelutong

You may be confusing Freesat with Freeview.

icdg

I wouldn't think there would be Brexit implications for Freesat. The reasons why the BBC went free to air on satellite are not affected by the UK's status as a member of the EU - they don't want to pay Sky for the use of their CAS, which is their call to make.

Delacent

If RTE went free to air on satellite sky would see a huge drop in subscribers especially those on the basic package.

If rte use this as a bargaining tool, they'll get their fee.

Capt'n Midnight

Delacent wrote: »

If RTE went free to air on satellite sky would see a huge drop in subscribers especially those on the basic package.

If rte use this as a bargaining tool, they'll get their fee.

RTE are already FTA on satellite.

It's just a different satellite. So there are setup and hardware costs and the little niggle of needing to switch between two receivers.



The ideal receiver would be a FreeSat box with a Saorview tuner and all on one EPG. That would allow most SKY customers to switch over tomorrow if they didn't need the Pay Channels. Ain't going to happen no such box exists, unless you roll your own.

A simple firmware upgrade would allow Freesat receivers to integrate SaorSat , no hardware changes needed to the receiver. Again won't happen because freesat won't allow.


A simple firmware upgrade would allow Freesat receivers use RTE player etc. Again won't happen because Freesat won't allow. A pity as that's pretty much what Saorview Connect is.




The Killer App of SKY and Virgin is that you can swap between Irish and UK channels without faffing about. I've hooked up Saorsat to a Freesat receiver but it's still knudgy as there is no EPG.

political analyst

jelutong wrote: »

You may be confusing Freesat with Freeview.

Availability of BBC, ITV and Channels 4 and 5 in the Republic via Freesat is the satellite equivalent of terrestrial overspill.

RabbleRouser2k

This has airs of 'Bupa should pay VHI money'...from all those years ago.

And considering Sky have a billionaire owner-I cannot see this being anything other than a 'I'm gonna get my name in the papers' statement by a guy who hasn't been heard from in a while.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, if the carriage was paid for, the France 24, Al Jazeera, and a few others could go on air as there would be no IP rights. Maybe even BBC News. Also, Oireachtas TV might make a full time addition, even including Dail committees and County Council proceedings.

The important thing is Saorview is free, and Sky is not. At the present time, Freesat is also free - but only because of over spill. Who knows what might follow Brexit.

jelutong wrote: »

You may be confusing Freesat with Freeview.

No confusion.

I used to be able to access BBC.co.uk - now I get redirected to BBC.com. Freesat could follow the same restriction by requiring an internet connection.

Delacent wrote: »

If RTE went free to air on satellite sky would see a huge drop in subscribers especially those on the basic package.

If rte use this as a bargaining tool, they'll get their fee.

RTE cannot go FTA on satellite (28.2E), but they can disappear from it. That is how they get their fee.

They are on Freesat.

icdg

Even if they were to require an internet connection to use a Freesat box - even now that would be a very controversial move, even the U.K. doesn't have 100% fixed line Broadband connectivity - that is something that could be easily circumvented by just using a generic (non Freesat branded) FTA receiver.

A free to air satellite signal cannot be geoblocked. Once it can, it would no longer be FTA but FTV. And that requires some sort of CAS, and the BBC have said they won't pay Sky for VideoGuard.

Sam Russell

Whereas that is true, the BBC could require a fixed BB connection to access their signals FTA. I doubt if any other FTA signal provider would bother, the BBC might.

Not sure how they would do it technically, but it is possible.

Stasi 2.0

the BBC could require a fixed BB connection to access their signals FTA

Not all households in the UK have (or can get) such a thing.

RTE cannot go FTA on satellite (28.2E)

They could

But they wont

The Cush

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

They could

But they wont

They couldn't afford the associated cost of programme rights for that footprint.

Stasi 2.0

The Cush wrote: »

They couldn't afford the associated cost of programme rights for that footprint.

Some people buy into the nonsense accepted wisdom.

Some don't

The Cush

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

Some people buy into the nonsense accepted wisdom.

Some don't

Some choose to ignore the facts

The BBC, ITV and a number of other companies have put their services on one of the wideband Astra satellites. The services are broadcast unencrypted, or “in the clear” as we call it. The trouble with those wideband satellites is that they have a very big footprint. If RTE were to be put up on a wideband satellite, its services would be in the clear to the UK, France, Holland and many other countries. One might ask why that should not be done, to which I would respond that we do not have the resources to purchase the rights to enable us to broadcast into those countries. We buy programming that allows us to broadcast to 4.5 million people. We do not have the money to broadcast to 100 million people. Therefore, the option taken by the BBC when Freesat was launched is not available to us.

Source: Conor Hayes, RTÉ CFO, 2010

In the UK, the public service channels for example BBC and Channel 4, are obliged to provide their channels throughout the UK freely over a digital platform. They have chosen to do this in two ways – using both a digital terrestrial network and also using satellite. Their satellite service, Freesat, is intended to provide for reception to the UK only but also covers Ireland through overspill.

In order to overcome copyright issues which are associated with broadcasting, the UK channels must purchase the rights to show their acquired content in Ireland as well as the UK. The copyright costs are proportional to TV viewer numbers so the additional cost for acquiring the rights to broadcast in Ireland is small. As an alternative approach, the UK could choose to encrypt the satellite service so that it could not be received in Ireland or elsewhere.

For the Irish channels to be freely available on the same satellite as the UK channels, the issue of copyright also arises. Irish stations would need to acquire copyright throughout the footprint area of the satellite, in the UK as well as Ireland, or to provide an encrypted service. RTÉ has informed us that both options are prohibitively expensive and that they have no plans to seek to place Saorview channels on Freesat.

Source: Pat Rabbitte, Minister for Communications, 2012

Stasi 2.0

The Cush wrote: »

Source: Conor Hayes Source: Pat Rabbitte

Well if they say it.........

icdg

Okay, that's enough. Stasi2.0 your next post on this topic must contain a link to hard verifiable evidence. If you cannot provide that you are requested not to post in this thread.