Suing VW over emissions scandal... Mod warning post 313

JoeA3

Christ... it takes all sorts.

listermint

JoeA3 wrote: »

Christ... it takes all sorts.

Agreed ..

kirving

listermint wrote: »

Do you have any proof someone who comes back at trade time is not losing out?

Rather than just opinion.

I mean i have no proof either. But i am saying its a genuine concern. Enough of a concern for VW to take it seriously in the US, but they are protected here by the German high command in the EU. Molly coddled even.

I don't, no, but what I do know is that VW have remained the most popular cars in Ireland for the past 3 years and the consumer here will not be subject to higher tax in the future on such cars.

In addition, I would think that most people who have bought in that period have done so on PCP, where only a Guaranteed Future Value is given by the deal, so once VW give you that, it's difficult to prove a loss.

I agree though, the EU should fine them to prevent this kind of thing happening in future.

grogi

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I agree though, the EU should fine them to prevent this kind of thing happening in future.

Have they ever failed European regulations? On what grounds should they be fined?
In the US that is a completely different story though...

listermint

grogi wrote: »

Have they ever failed European regulations? On what grounds should they be fined?
In the US that is a completely different story though...

Misrepresentation ?


I mean American companies dont get away with anything in Brussels, why should European ones be different? they probably provide similar levels of employment in the zone.

Drummerboy08

What is suitable compensation for misrepresentation?

everlast75

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

What is suitable compensation for misrepresentation?

I think people are losing sight of what that word means.

You have to prove loss in order to succeed in a claim in tort.

I cannot for the life of me see where there is a loss for the claimant and therefore cannot see how they will recover compensation/damages.

dr.fuzzenstein

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

What is suitable compensation for misrepresentation?

Drummerboy08

everlast75 wrote: »

I think people are losing sight of what that word means.

You have to prove loss in order to succeed in a claim in tort.

I cannot for the life of me see where there is a loss for the claimant and therefore cannot see how they will recover compensation/damages.

That would be my thought exactly, however I'm just curious to see what those who feel compensation is due expect to get?

Does 1 free service cover any "loss"?

For Forks Sake

JJJJNR wrote: »

© O'Dwyers, Ballyhaunis, Co. Mayo

I'm assuming that's the same lad that pops up in the likes of the Last Word every now and again purporting to be a "road traffic law expert". Seems to be primarily focused on finding loopholes in legislation to get drunk drivers off charges.

edit. yup.

http://www.odwyersolicitors.ie/for-you/road-traffic-law/

In representing motorists accused of drink or drug driving our focus is on the detail of the law and the procedure applied where any issue may arise, so as to benefit the motorist.

zilog_jones

grogi wrote: »

VW did not violate Euro5 nor Euro6 AFAIK - so there is hardly anything in Europe the authorities can do.

They gamed the system in Europe in the same way they did with the US EPA tests, and are subject to penalties for using a "defeat device" - although I'm not sure if something's actually happening there. The cars in normal driving conditions do not meet Euro5 or Euro6 limits on NOx emissions, never mind the much more stringent US requirements.

robtri

the OP has done a runner ..... should we sue him for misrepresenting that this was to be a thread we expected him to participate in..... lol

martco

Ok
so the OP hasn't done any runner....I was out at work and just getting online now for a few mins
It was interesting to see all the replies however and the various opinions.
btw I'm a decent mechanic, I know the technical in's and outs.
Unfortunately I beg to differ with anyone who has said that we shouldn't be materially affected by the affair, the facts are different I'm afraid possibly if you're trying to sell on an affected Golf on privately at least...I have no idea how MSL treat trade-ins - if you're someone like me who takes pride in their cars (and I take care of my da's car these days due to his age) its not nice for me having watch a sale fall thru or get lowballed because I have an affected car - of the 3 people who came to see the car all 3 people asked the question which I answered honestly.
(in a way it's almost roundabout as bad a hassle as having that famous timing chain issue with the BMW N47 unit)
I couldn't care less about the emissions, both diesels and petrol both spew all sorts of stuff most which aren't even tested against, life's too short. I'm not a typical compo chaser either....but I do believe VW shouldn't just get to cruise on here like nothing's happened so if there is a way to access something in the way of compensation then why tf shouldn't I?

Arcade_Tryer

everlast75 wrote: »

I think people are losing sight of what that word means.

You have to prove loss in order to succeed in a claim in tort.

I cannot for the life of me see where there is a loss for the claimant and therefore cannot see how they will recover compensation/damages.

Damages for distress caused by being lied to by the company and subsequently judged by others for driving a car that was widely reported to be in part defective. Untold psychological effects could consequently exist as a result of this deception resulting in compensation being required to pay for treatment, as well as compensation for the restoring of their good name.

corglass

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

everlast75 wrote: »

I think people are losing sight of what that word means.

You have to prove loss in order to succeed in a claim in tort.

I cannot for the life of me see where there is a loss for the claimant and therefore cannot see how they will recover compensation/damages.

Damages for distress caused by being lied to by the company and subsequently judged by others for driving a car that was widely reported to be in part defective. Untold psychological effects could consequently exist as a result of this deception resulting in compensation being required to pay for treatment, as well as compensation for the restoring of their good name.

This is same claim culture rot that has Irish insurance through the roof.

Get a reality check!

NIMAN

Its the "how can I make a quick buck" logic that is now rife in Ireland.

From cutting your knee at a Neil Diamond concert to trying to get a quick lump of cash from VW, free money will always be appealing.

opinionated3

martco wrote: »

Ok
so the OP hasn't done any runner....I was out at work and just getting online now for a few mins
It was interesting to see all the replies however and the various opinions.
btw I'm a decent mechanic, I know the technical in's and outs.
Unfortunately I beg to differ with anyone who has said that we shouldn't be materially affected by the affair, the facts are different I'm afraid possibly if you're trying to sell on an affected Golf on privately at least...I have no idea how MSL treat trade-ins - if you're someone like me who takes pride in their cars (and I take care of my da's car these days due to his age) its not nice for me having watch a sale fall thru or get lowballed because I have an affected car - of the 3 people who came to see the car all 3 people asked the question which I answered honestly.
(in a way it's almost roundabout as bad a hassle as having that famous timing chain issue with the BMW N47 unit)
I couldn't care less about the emissions, both diesels and petrol both spew all sorts of stuff most which aren't even tested against, life's too short. I'm not a typical compo chaser either....but I do believe VW shouldn't just get to cruise on here like nothing's happened so if there is a way to access something in the way of compensation then why tf shouldn't I?

Please don't compare this to a serious and expensive timing chain failure. This is nothing of the sort. And the 3 persons that came to view the car are obviously clueless about the reality of the situation where they somehow believe that the car is now faulty. It works perfect. And why EXACTLY do you feel you should get some money out of this? Or what would be proper compensation in your eyes if you don't mind me asking...

Toyotafanboi

Why would people come to view a car that they knew was affected by the emissions scandal, then tell you they weren't taking it because it was affected by the emissions scandal. I'd take the car off adverts for a start.

A diesel Golf is probably the most sellable car in the country. If yours isn't selling, there's a bigger influence somewhere than the emissions.

NIMAN

Anyone coming to look at a Golf and trying to use 'the emissions scandal' as a way of getting big money off it is just chancing their arm, chase them.

bucketybuck

martco wrote: »

I'm not a typical compo chaser either....but I do believe VW shouldn't just get to cruise on here like nothing's happened so if there is a way to access something in the way of compensation then why tf shouldn't I?

:pac:

s15r330

shietpilot wrote: »

I find it funny nobody really even knows how much MPG they are getting. I've heard plenty of people tell me their diesel car gets 60 MPG because it's what they saw on the brochure. In reality these cars achieve a lot less.

If you log onto Fuelly and have a look at some 1.6 TDI Golfs you will see the average fuel consumption across a range of different drivers is a lot lower.

For example:
2012 1.6 TDI Golf - 47.9 MPG
2011 1.6 TDI Golf - 48.6 MPG
2010 1.6 TDI Golf - 46.0 MPG

You don't see anyone making a fuss about it though!

My girlfriends 2011 1.6 TDI gets 58mpg, and I calculated that over 3 tanks, not using the trip computer.
My 99 AFN a4 got 65mpg out of a tank recently.

dr.fuzzenstein

s15r330 wrote: »

My girlfriends 2011 1.6 TDI gets 58mpg, and I calculated that over 3 tanks, not using the trip computer.
My 99 AFN a4 got 65mpg out of a tank recently.

Did you push it some of the way? :P Or did you mean to say you got 65 miles out of a tank...

s15r330

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Bid you push it some of the way? :P Or did you mean to say you got 65 miles out of a tank...

Nope! 65mpg, 896 miles to a full tank! Was raging I didn't make the 900.
It was on a long run though.

shietpilot

s15r330 wrote: »

Nope! 65mpg, 896 miles to a full tank! Was raging I didn't make the 900.
It was on a long run though.

No problems getting such fuel consumption on one tank to be fair. Do 10 (or more) tanks in a row calculating the fuel consumption for each and then get the average of those tanks and it will be a lot lower most likely.

Getting one good tank means nothing - the consumption average over your period of ownership is what counts

s15r330

shietpilot wrote: »

No problems getting such fuel consumption on one tank to be fair. Do 10 (or more) tanks in a row calculating the fuel consumption for each and then get the average of those tanks and it will be a lot lower most likely.

Getting one good tank means nothing - the consumption average over your period of ownership is what counts

I could get the near the same over 10 tanks if I drove accordingly. But normal driving conditions would have it a bit lower alright.

dr.fuzzenstein

shietpilot wrote: »

No problems getting such fuel consumption on one tank to be fair. Do 10 (or more) tanks in a row calculating the fuel consumption for each and then get the average of those tanks and it will be a lot lower most likely.

Getting one good tank means nothing - the consumption average over your period of ownership is what counts

I only ever managed to get 60 mpg once in the Cmax, got onto the motorway, zeroed the counter and drove at a steady 110 from Limerick to Gort. At the end of the trip the mpg read 60. I drove home the backroad and the 60 reading didn't even make it through town.
So yes, purely motorway and with a very light foot it's possible. Though with normal driving the old girl gets always over 50, now that the lead footed GF is no longer driving it.

grogi

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Damages for distress caused by being lied to by the company and subsequently judged by others for driving a car that was widely reported to be in part defective. Untold psychological effects could consequently exist as a result of this deception resulting in compensation being required to pay for treatment, as well as compensation for the restoring of their good name.

So when the untold consequences become told and actual treatment is reqired - then file a complaint.

R.O.R

There is no issue with the resale value of used VAG cars that are affected by the emissions "scandal".

That's based on diesel VW's still selling for stupid money from here. No directly comparable cars to give actual figures from last year and this year, but based on age/mileage differences, the prices we are achieving for used VW diesels are more or less the same as they were before the "scandal" hit.

Drummerboy08

Not seeing any issue with residual values here either.

There's still quite a strong demand for used VW.

corglass

So in summary:

1. The OP it a chancer. We've established that.

2. VW owners haven't suffered a financial loss. We've established that too.

3. Finally once a thread descends into MPG claims they'll always be "outrageous" claims followed by a poster challenging the legitimacy of it.

Henry Ford III

How come if there's no loss to owners here that VW has had to reserve huge amounts of money abroad to pay claims for loss and damages?

Muahahaha

Henry Ford III wrote: »

How come if there's no loss in to owners that VW has had to reserve huge amounts of money abroad to pay claims for loss and damages?

Good point, iirc VW have set €13.5bn aside to pay compensation worldwide.

A mate of mine is a solicitor in Dublin who has a good few VW cases on his books at the moment and he tells me they will be paying out to Irish drivers. They've already admitted liability so now he says its just a matter of processing paperwork and getting customers their compensation. He reckons it might take about 12 months from now before payouts arrive but hes certain that they will be coming. So those thinking this will be thrown out of court are going to find themselves to be very wrong on this one.

Also I really dont understand why some on here are getting in a tizzy over this, VW themselves have told their shareholders to expect a multi-billion euro payout which is as good as saying we were wrong and now have to pay the costs of the emissions cheating.

Its no different from buying any product to later find out you've been mis-sold it. And the whole case itself will concentrate the minds of other car manufacturers thinking of pulling the same stunt. If there is no punishment for doing so then they're free to do it again and again till we cant trust any car companies in what they're selling.

zilog_jones

Henry Ford III wrote: »

How come if there's no loss in to owners that VW has had to reserve huge amounts of money abroad to pay claims for loss and damages?

It has affected resale value in many countries, especially the US.

Anyway, VW are still liable for fraud, false advertising, breach of contract and possibly other things. In the US they are offering to buy back the cars and free termination of leases, which will also cost millions. Many people purchased these cars believing they truly were "clean" diesels, and they aren't.

And then there's the fines from governments, and losses incurred from their cars being banned from sale in some countries (e.g. Switzerland).

Markcheese

NIMAN wrote:

How many members of the public actually know what they do in these mpg tests? That they strip the car bare to make it lighter, that they tape up all air catching surfaces etc? Surely thats cheating from all the car makers?

Cheating / gaming .... it's one of those things that develops over time... by the time everyone knows about it.. everyones doing it ..and how do you call stop..
They'll need a standard air/pressure and a standard temp, a factory standard weight for a given model, standard tyres and wheels too.. but how do you go back to catch the cars that gamed the system and will be competing with the cars adhering to the upgraded system ...

Henry Ford III

zilog_jones wrote: »

It has affected resale value in many countries, especially the US.

Anyway, VW are still liable for fraud, false advertising, breach of contract and possibly other things. In the US they are offering to buy back the cars and free termination of leases, which will also cost millions. Many people purchased these cars believing they truly were "clean" diesels, and they aren't.

And then there's the fines from governments, and losses incurred from their cars being banned from sale in some countries (e.g. Switzerland).

Yes but that doesn't answer my question.

Why are there no class action lawsuits being filed here, and why aren't VW being taken to task (and to the cleaners) by owners and regulators?

Some in the know above say residuals are unaffected here - are we completely stupid or what?

everlast75

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Damages for distress caused by being lied to by the company and subsequently judged by others for driving a car that was widely reported to be in part defective. Untold psychological effects could consequently exist as a result of this deception resulting in compensation being required to pay for treatment, as well as compensation for the restoring of their good name.

Let's break this down, shall we?

1) "Damages for distress" - medical report required to prove such distress
2) "Judged by others" - who judged you and what proof have you that they did?
3) "widely reported to be in part defective" - extremely minor "defect" rectified by a minor recall, which placed the owner in no harm whatsoever

so you sum up by saying "Untold psychological effects could consequently exist as a result of this deception resulting in compensation being required to pay for treatment, as well as compensation for the restoring of their good name" Well, if you're that delicate to suffer "untold psychological effects" because of a recall , or hang around with people who whisper behind your back

"Look at him - can you believe he let VW deceive him into buying a diesel? Has he no shame?"

then you really need to look at the company you keep...

martco

opinionated3 wrote: »

Please don't compare this to a serious and expensive timing chain failure. This is nothing of the sort. And the 3 persons that came to view the car are obviously clueless about the reality of the situation where they somehow believe that the car is now faulty. It works perfect. And why EXACTLY do you feel you should get some money out of this? Or what would be proper compensation in your eyes if you don't mind me asking...

you didn't read me properly here. ffs I know this isn't the same technically or €€€ wise as N47 but in it's nature it's similar....IF you are the owner of an affected and highly publicised motor and you're trying to sell it on privately to get to your next car that is

i.e. if your joe soap non-car non-educated person comes to view and buy they're immediately either a) put off buying or b) on the upper hand financially speaking. I on the other hand might well buy it because I understand the in's and outs of it without blinking. but the fact of the matter is as the owner/seller you get exposed to this. and I've experienced it directly. The size of the population of people I can sell on to now at the correct price for a private sale & condition is smaller. I carry the can for something I didn't cause/do. the car is tainted in their eyes and I end up picking up the tab for that. look..if I'd bought a new car from VW and they'd said to me "listen its a great car but here's the thing...you can maybe expect more difficulty than usual in selling her on then normally because..." and I went ahead and bought with that knowledge then fair enough my problem and my consequences. but as you well know that's not the case here.

btw I know 2x people with N47's who after jumping thru a million hoops eventually got them sorted (they would be in a position to sue after the stress caused believe me)...and one of them has been trying to sell his nice clean 5 on and off and guess what? despite the job having been done, paperwork etc. he's STILL having difficulty selling her on for the correct resale. I might buy it personally, to me its no problem because I understand the tech of it and appreciate that this car has actually benefitted from the process but Joe Soap will have doubts and won't.

I'm sorry but bottom line is if you are an owner of one of these "tainted" cars and are trying to sell privately you ARE materially affected.

Value? I'm going to say €500

grogi

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Some in the know above say residuals are unaffected here - are we completely stupid or what?

Here, there is 0 risk of those cars being banned from roads or road tax changed. Thus nothing changed in regards of those cars, they are as good or as bad as they been before - hence no reason to change the residuals.

In the US - I can absolutely imagine EPA or CARB banning diesel VW from the roads - thus they will be worth 0. Hence the sharp drop in residuals.

martco

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Not seeing any issue with residual values here either.

There's still quite a strong demand for used VW.

I assume with a statement like that you're a dealer? if so...pls remember I'm selling on privately, that's a different ballgame as well you know

also for the record there's more than 1x VW in my family (including a MK1) we've been VW customers for years and would I buy another? yep I would.

Drummerboy08

But the fact that a private seller is selling the car won't make a difference.

If it's priced correctly it will sell, no different to a dealer selling the car.

my3cents

Should be worth more if owning it entitles you to a pay out from VW :pac:

grogi

my3cents wrote: »

Should be worth more if owning it entitles you to a pay out from VW :pac:

I like the way you're thinking

Arcade_Tryer

corglass wrote: »

This is same claim culture rot that has Irish insurance through the roof.

Get a reality check!

grogi wrote: »

So when the untold consequences become told and actual treatment is reqired - then file a complaint.

They may already exist. She may have been living a life of hell for the last few months due to the distress caused. I was only surmising. The effects may also have hit her harder now that the court case is public. A very difficult time for the claimant potentially.

everlast75 wrote: »

so you sum up by saying "Untold psychological effects could consequently exist as a result of this deception resulting in compensation being required to pay for treatment, as well as compensation for the restoring of their good name" Well, if you're that delicate to suffer "untold psychological effects" because of a recall , or hang around with people who whisper behind your back

"Look at him - can you believe he let VW deceive him into buying a diesel? Has he no shame?"

then you really need to look at the company you keep...

You could accuse anyone who has ever sued for defamation of the very same thing. So not sure why you're trying insinuate that anyone would just shrug something like that off or that they should feel shame. They don't.

robtri

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Yes but that doesn't answer my question.

Why are there no class action lawsuits being filed here, and why aren't VW being taken to task (and to the cleaners) by owners and regulators?

Some in the know above say residuals are unaffected here - are we completely stupid or what?

I believe the answer is that in Ireland you cannot bring a class action suit...


I also believe the money isnt to compensate but reserved to potentially buy back vehicles.

Whether people care or not about emissions, the fact is VW sold a product under false pretenses... you buy anything and its not as stated you should be entitled to your money back on return of the product.

martco

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

But the fact that a private seller is selling the car won't make a difference.

If it's priced correctly it will sell, no different to a dealer selling the car.

No it won't. Why do you think I wrote the post?? Like I have nothing better to do with my time or something. Did you read what I wrote in the post at all?

If you just choose not to believe what I'm saying then off you go but I'm telling you for a fact that in comparison to a non tainted build I'm categorically having more trouble than usual selling THIS car on a private sale basis. I know for a fact that if it was not on the affected list we wouldn't be having this thread. 3 people came to look, all 3 asked the question and 1 tried to use it as a bargaining tool. It's an unmarked Highline with DSG. On the button mileage. New Dunlop rubber. 1 owner. Properly detailed even. Perfect service history. It IS a factor.

apart from €€ differential which I'd assume you being a dealer you would rightly expect more money and there's a reason for that from a customers PoV that I totally accept - comeback, warranty etc. in other words CONFIDENCE. There's a value in that. I'm not pricing the car at dealers price. I'm pricing it at a normal expected private price. And I'm entitled not to have to deal with the hassle of trying to sell something that's getting difficult to sell because of VW's lies.

GustavoFring

Maybe they're using it to bring the price down from something a bit too high. It's common knowledge what's affected and they should have known it before coming to view it. Just sounds like a bargaining tactic tbh.

JoeA3

Selling any car privately is a massive pain in the hole. A potential buyer (or absolute chancer) will look for whatever angle to push your asking price down. If it wasn't this emissions thing (and I guarantee you the chancers asking you about it don't care about the emissions either!) it would be something else. Personally if I was selling it and the "buyer" asked me about it I'd hang up / tell him to sling his hook. His next question is likely to be "best price?" or "swap for my ads?"

martco wrote: »

No it won't. Why do you think I wrote the post?? Like I have nothing better to do with my time or something. Did you read what I wrote in the post at all?

If you just choose not to believe what I'm saying then off you go but I'm telling you for a fact that in comparison to a non tainted build I'm categorically having more trouble than usual selling THIS car on a private sale basis. I know for a fact that if it was not on the affected list we wouldn't be having this thread. 3 people came to look, all 3 asked the question and 1 tried to use it as a bargaining tool. It's an unmarked Highline with DSG. On the button mileage. New Dunlop rubber. 1 owner. Properly detailed even. Perfect service history. It IS a factor.

apart from €€ differential which I'd assume you being a dealer you would rightly expect more money and there's a reason for that from a customers PoV that I totally accept - comeback, warranty etc. in other words CONFIDENCE. There's a value in that. I'm not pricing the car at dealers price. I'm pricing it at a normal expected private price. And I'm entitled not to have to deal with the hassle of trying to sell something that's getting difficult to sell because of VW's lies.

robtri

martco wrote: »

No it won't. Why do you think I wrote the post?? Like I have nothing better to do with my time or something. Did you read what I wrote in the post at all?

If you just choose not to believe what I'm saying then off you go but I'm telling you for a fact that in comparison to a non tainted build I'm categorically having more trouble than usual selling THIS car on a private sale basis. I know for a fact that if it was not on the affected list we wouldn't be having this thread. 3 people came to look, all 3 asked the question and 1 tried to use it as a bargaining tool. It's an unmarked Highline with DSG. On the button mileage. New Dunlop rubber. 1 owner. Properly detailed even. Perfect service history. It IS a factor.

apart from €€ differential which I'd assume you being a dealer you would rightly expect more money and there's a reason for that from a customers PoV that I totally accept - comeback, warranty etc. in other words CONFIDENCE. There's a value in that. I'm not pricing the car at dealers price. I'm pricing it at a normal expected private price. And I'm entitled not to have to deal with the hassle of trying to sell something that's getting difficult to sell because of VW's lies.

link to your ad????

what year? what price? how does it compare to other cars on Donedeal?
who decided your asking price is fair?

the VW scandal isnt a big factor with customers as VW still holds the number 1 car sale slot for the first six months, so customer confidence in VW is high....

martco

robtri wrote: »

link to your ad????

what year? what price? how does it compare to other cars on Donedeal?
who decided your asking price is fair?

the VW scandal isnt a big factor with customers as VW still holds the number 1 car sale slot for the first six months, so customer confidence in VW is high....

sorry I'm not prepared to do that, you're kidding right? everyone on this thread gets my email/phone number? c'mon be sensible please.

trust me the car was priced within norms. its not the first time I've sold a car. I know how to buy and sell cars.

this was a couple of months back & we've kept the car for the time being, the thing that prompted me to write the post was that story I spotted in the Examiner, I hadn't realised Irish customers were taking actual action.

you are a little off topic here btw - I couldn't care less what VW's quarterly sales numbers are like, I just wanted to discuss this specific context.
but I already said in a reply earlier I would probably buy VW again. the technicals don't bother me in the slightest. but the fact is this issue/affair affects my ability to resell my car. that's what bothers me.

Sam Quentin

I BLAME THE GREEN PARTY