Colnago retro frame: gearing advice urgently needed

Sionnach7

Hi I'm just wondering if you could help me. I've an old Colnago steel frame from the 80s.
People familiar with 80s and early 90s bikes would know that the low level gearing on them was particularly bad. I want to re-build the bike with a triple chainset to give me *low* gearing, but since I'm not a bike mechanic, there are MANY compatibility issues which I am facing.

I have a 6 speed block and chain. Both have been barely used. Mavic MA40 rims. They 'seem' fine, but would welcome any advice re. possible internal aluminium corrosion in bearings etc.?
Anyway, I strongly believe that we should use-out equipment as much as possible as the earth does not have infinite resources.
The block is a 13-14-15-17-19-21. I want to fit a front triple crankset 52-42-30 (or 28, whichever).

My questions are as follows:

1. Nearly all the triple cranks I can find on ebay are listed as 9 and 10 speeds. Would my 6 six speed chain pose problems on this crank? If so, what kind? And would it really matter too much?

2. Would a 9 speed rear derailleur clash with the 6 speed chain? Again, how? And would it really matter?

3. Would it *have* to be a "long cage" derailleur? Would a "medium cage" derailleur do? What would happen if the cage length is wrong??
It being a Colnago, I'd love to furnish it with some beautiful Campag equipment. They work really nice, and look really nice and just obviously go hand-in-hand with a Colnago.


I've tried three bicycle shops who have said they're not interested, can't get the parts, the parts are just too expensive and that they are afraid of taking the chance of ordering in case of incompatibility and thence would not be able to return the parts etc. Joy...
Some have suggested going for a wide range 7 speed block instead, but I don't fancy this as besides the fact that I'm not even sure if a wider 7 speed block will fit between the stays, it would also mean big jumps in gearing.

Seriously though boards.ie sages! If you could help out at all it would mean a lot to me. I want to ride it again as a long-distance training bike. I raced the frame a lot in the 80s and 90s. It's a good quality steel frame, is light, strong and never, ever, gave me goddamn road buzz!! The aluminium hybrid I'm training on at the moment is absolutely *killing* me with jarring road buzz. My hands ache after an hour and my back hurts from all the vibrations. It's actually turning me off training. So I really want to get my old steel back on the road.
If you can help out it would be great. ANY help is greatly appreciated.

onthefringe

few questions..

are you going friction down tube or downtube index?
how low a gear do you need on the back?
what wheels are you using ?
what parts do you already have ?

will answer most of your above with this info

gman2k

How about just fitting a compact crankset?

25sean

Get a compact indeed, triples look terrible on road bikes... Spa cycles to period square taper ones....

secman

Lots of vintage parts on eBay.
I'm just refurbishing a 1992 Raparee steel frame bike. Have been sourcing old Dura ace parts for the last 4 to 5 weeks. It helps when you know the model reference... mine was dura ace 7402 groupset. Couldn't use new chainring set....had to stick with a 52/42 crankset, 8 speed chain and cassette. Mine was an early edition of STI setup. Have the bike from new...custom built in 1992. Left it to a mechanic to do it though...parts were dear enough for me to screw it up.
Best of luck with your own rebuild.

cdaly_

Sionnach7 wrote: »

Some have suggested going for a wide range 7 speed block instead, but I don't fancy this as besides the fact that I'm not even sure if a wider 7 speed block will fit between the stays, it would also mean big jumps in gearing.

There's a 7-speed Shimano 'Megarange' block available which is essentially a 6-speed block with a 34t granny gear as well. You don't get the big jumps except for the last one. I'm pretty sure a 7-speed block will fit where a 6-speed used to.

This would be the easiest option but you would need a long-cage derailleur. If you have friction shifters it would be no problem. Your bigger issue might be finding 27" tyres to fit the wheels.

I did this with one steel frame and may have added a thin spacer to the axle for clearance and just had to pull the dropouts slightly apart to fit the wheel. No problem to a steel frame...

MegaRange on ebay "RATIO 34/24/21/19/17/15/13"

ford2600

secman wrote: »

Lots of vintage parts on eBay.
I'm just refurbishing a 1992 Raparee steel frame bike. Have been sourcing old Dura ace parts for the last 4 to 5 weeks. It helps when you know the model reference... mine was dura ace 7402 groupset. Couldn't use new chainring set....had to stick with a 52/42 crankset, 8 speed chain and cassette. Mine was an early edition of STI setup. Have the bike from new...custom built in 1992. Left it to a mechanic to do it though...parts were dear enough for me to screw it up.
Best of luck with your own rebuild.

I've no doubt bike will look lovely and ride nice but with 42/21 (or maybe 23?) you won't be doing hill repeats with it?

Gearing on bikes from that time aren't really for lads in their 30/40/50's trying to rekindle their youth and keep their knees.

If OP wants to have this bike as his main bike then can't see how he can keep it retro and enjoy climbing with it.

secman

ford2600 wrote: »

I've no doubt bike will look lovely and ride nice but with 42/21 (or maybe 23?) you won't be doing hill repeats with it?

Gearing on bikes from that time aren't really for lads in their 30/40/50's trying to rekindle their youth and keep their knees.

If OP wants to have this bike as his main bike then can't see how he can keep it retro and enjoy climbing with it.

Original cassette was a straight 12 to 19. I did the wicklow 200 on it about 15 years ago.... I changed the cassette about 18 months ago ,think its a 13 to 25. I'm hitting 59 next month and my other bike is a 50/34 with a 10 speed cassette, huge difference climbing on this bike.

clog

I had bikes of that vintage back then And have built a few up recentely as well.

There are many compatibility issues and to be honest I would not be surprised that a bike shop would not want to take it on.

You are going to run into problems with every suggestion. And it could end up very expensive.

Have you thought of selling the parts on it and buying a new groupset and wheels to put on the bike. Parts from that era are getting very good prices at the moment (from experience I would say prices have doubled in the last 5 years).

If you do not want to go that route then by far the easiest thing to do is change the freewheel. The mega range one quoted earlier I am sure will not fit a rear derailleur of that vintage. To be honest you probably do not need to go that low.
I have had success fitting 7 speed Sunrace freewheels (these are re-makes of a Suntour patent freewheel from years ago). You can get them in 13-25 or 13-28. You will get a much easier low gear. In fact 39/28 will get you very near the same gear ratio as 30/21.

Link to freewheel
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/freewheels/1325-sunrace-7-speed-freewheel/

gman2k

secman wrote: »

Lots of vintage parts on eBay.
I'm just refurbishing a 1992 Raparee steel frame bike. Have been sourcing old Dura ace parts for the last 4 to 5 weeks. It helps when you know the model reference... mine was dura ace 7402 groupset. Couldn't use new chainring set....had to stick with a 52/42 crankset, 8 speed chain and cassette. Mine was an early edition of STI setup. Have the bike from new...custom built in 1992. Left it to a mechanic to do it though...parts were dear enough for me to screw it up.
Best of luck with your own rebuild.

Was there much work needed to the frame? Have one myself, but needs framebuilder work to it....

Sionnach7

onthefringe wrote: »

few questions..

are you going friction down tube or downtube index?
how low a gear do you need on the back?
what wheels are you using ?
what parts do you already have ?

will answer most of your above with this info

Thanks very much for your time onthefringe.

- Friction down tube
- 21 on existing block. Do not want to change and don't think there's room between the stays for a wider 7 or 8 speed block.
- Mavic MA40s which were on it.
- Have all parts. But:

a. The 42/21 was useless for severe climbing
b. Massive aluminium corrosion on the cranks and pedals so have to ditch them anyway. Attempts at cleaning didn't make a dent on it. So as I have to get a whole new crankset, I may as well get a triple.
Am a bit worried about possible corrosion inside the wheels hubs though which can't be seen. They seem to spin fine, but I'm not sure. The outside of the hubs had considerable aluminium oxide build-up: almost 'furry', like chocolate gone a year beyond its best before!
Cheers again for your time.

Sionnach7

gman2k wrote: »

How about just fitting a compact crankset?

Thanks for the idea gman, but as there's only a 6 speed block, I would have greatly reduced range of gearing. Thanks anyway.

Sionnach7

25sean wrote: »

Get a compact indeed, triples look terrible on road bikes... Spa cycles to period square taper ones....

Thanks for your thoughts Sean, but there is a point where form does not, cannot, override function.

Sionnach7

secman wrote: »

Lots of vintage parts on eBay.
I'm just refurbishing a 1992 Raparee steel frame bike. Have been sourcing old Dura ace parts for the last 4 to 5 weeks. It helps when you know the model reference... mine was dura ace 7402 groupset. Couldn't use new chainring set....had to stick with a 52/42 crankset, 8 speed chain and cassette. Mine was an early edition of STI setup. Have the bike from new...custom built in 1992. Left it to a mechanic to do it though...parts were dear enough for me to screw it up.
Best of luck with your own rebuild.

secman, thanks, that was a lovely post man!
That will be REALLY nice I think when you're finished with it. Yeah, it definitely helps knowing the model reference. I just got this Colnago as a frame, and built it with components from my previous bike, and some additional parts. Like you say "left it to a mechanic", as not wanting to screw it up.
Having said that, most mechanics are extremely reticent to help out with it. They just don't really want to know. I have one mechanic who has been very obliging, but as he's not much older than myself, I think his knowledge might be a bit limited with the older stuff which was prevalent when we were only young lads.
Your 52/42 with an 8 speed would have got me out of most jams, but she's just too narrow at the back for anything more than its existing 6 speed. Thus, the triple. Makes great sense, just need to sort out compatibility issues and it can work.
Here send us pics of your Raparee when it's finished Bud! That would be great to see.

eeeee

But a compact would give you 30 x 21? Which is the same lowest gear as a triple, if aesthetics are important?

Sionnach7

cdaly_ wrote: »

There's a 7-speed Shimano 'Megarange' block available which is essentially a 6-speed block with a 34t granny gear as well. You don't get the big jumps except for the last one. I'm pretty sure a 7-speed block will fit where a 6-speed used to.

This would be the easiest option but you would need a long-cage derailleur. If you have friction shifters it would be no problem. Your bigger issue might be finding 27" tyres to fit the wheels.

I did this with one steel frame and may have added a thin spacer to the axle for clearance and just had to pull the dropouts slightly apart to fit the wheel. No problem to a steel frame...

MegaRange on ebay[/URL] "RATIO 34/24/21/19/17/15/13"

cdaly, thanks very much for that. It's something I considered, but preferentially I'd rather not. True, it would give me gear range, but it would still mean lots of jumps between gears. The advent of wider ratio blocks made SO much sense, going from 5 speeds to 10 speed etc.
But anyway, thanks very much again for your post. Ye are all really decent people on here to share of yere time and ideas, and I'm really impressed with the level of knowledge and understanding. Thanks again

Sionnach7

ford2600 wrote: »

I've no doubt bike will look lovely and ride nice but with 42/21 (or maybe 23?) you won't be doing hill repeats with it?

Gearing on bikes from that time aren't really for lads in their 30/40/50's trying to rekindle their youth and keep their knees.

If OP wants to have this bike as his main bike then can't see how he can keep it retro and enjoy climbing with it.

*Exactly*!!

secman

gman2k wrote: »

Was there much work needed to the frame? Have one myself, but needs framebuilder work to it....

Is it a Raparee that you have ?

Frame is in reasonable condition, paint work is in the main fine, it is after all 24 years old.
it was parked up for about 10 years, ventured back on bike about 5 years ago. It had a full dura ace group set, the 2 chain rings are badly worn, rear and front derailleur are okay.

Sionnach7

nee wrote: »

But a compact would give you 30 x 21? Which is the same lowest gear as a triple, if aesthetics are important?

Thanks nee for your time. Yes a compact could give the lowest gear I would conceivably need. However, it would also mean huge jumps between gears at all the wrong cadences!
It would just drive me nuts and I'd not want to ride it. Technology is supposed to *work* for us, and compatibilities aside, it's only really simple engineering. It'd be a disaster if it can't be sorted out, just using an extra front crank to open up another whole range of gears, *without* compromising close ratios the whole way up.
Thanks anyway though for your time.

Sionnach7

clog wrote: »

I had bikes of that vintage back then And have built a few up recentely as well.

There are many compatibility issues and to be honest I would not be surprised that a bike shop would not want to take it on.

You are going to run into problems with every suggestion. And it could end up very expensive.

Have you thought of selling the parts on it and buying a new groupset and wheels to put on the bike. Parts from that era are getting very good prices at the moment (from experience I would say prices have doubled in the last 5 years).

clog, thanks for your input. I might just have to do the above, and sell everything, and start off with a complete synchronous group set. But I will probably have to get the stays widened at the back as well though. It's not something I really wanted to do.
To be honest, I just (obviously) just wanted to take the easiest route possible i.e. replacing the crankset which was shot anyway, with a triple, introducing another nice range of much-needed ratios.

Anyway....yes I might have to just "go the whole hog" and widen, and replace a complete group set and wheels. A really big undertaking which I just didn't want to take on.

Thanks for your valuable input though, it has been very useful to me.

Quigs Snr

I have a 1983 colnago master (standard 126mm rear spacing)... If it fits a 6 speed it should fit a 7. Mine came with a 6 but I changed it without trouble to a 7 speed cassette from ebay which if memory serves is a 26 or 27-14. On the front I have an ofmega triple .

So it can be done.

clog

Your frame will likely have 126mm dropout spacing, it will take a 7 speed freewheel no problem, the dropout spacing did not increase between 6 and 7 speed.
Your frame is not 'too narrow for anything more than its existing 6 speed'. I have had a 1970's Colnago mexico with changed from 5 to 7 speed. I have also had a 1989 c35slx frame which i was able to easily cold set to 130mm to fit a 10 speed groupset on.

I would really suggest that you just change the freewheel and see how you go. If not I would go for a complete rebuild with a new groupset and wheels. It really is much cheaper to buy the whole groupset that getting pieces ad hoc.

The problem that you identify with the large gaps is not really a major issue as the high/middle gears in the block are pretty much the same, you have effectivrly an extra gear 6-7 which is essentialy a bale out gear. Please look up and compare the ratio.

Sionnach7

Quigs Snr wrote: »

I have a 1983 colnago master (standard 126mm rear spacing)... If it fits a 6 speed it should fit a 7. Mine came with a 6 but I changed it without trouble to a 7 speed cassette from ebay which if memory serves is a 26 or 27-14. On the front I have an ofmega triple .

So it can be done.

Cool
Is the "ofmega" a triple crank Quigs, yeah?

Thanks for that.

Sionnach7

clog wrote: »

Your frame will likely have 126mm dropout spacing, it will take a 7 speed freewheel no problem, the dropout spacing did not increase between 6 and 7 speed.
Your frame is not 'too narrow for anything more than its existing 6 speed'. I have had a 1970's Colnago mexico with changed from 5 to 7 speed. I have also had a 1989 c35slx frame which i was able to easily cold set to 130mm to fit a 10 speed groupset on.

I would really suggest that you just change the freewheel and see how you go. If not I would go for a complete rebuild with a new groupset and wheels. It really is much cheaper to buy the whole groupset that getting pieces ad hoc.

The problem that you identify with the large gaps is not really a major issue as the high/middle gears in the block are pretty much the same, you have effectivrly an extra gear 6-7 which is essentialy a bale out gear. Please look up and compare the ratio.

Thanks guys, it's news to me. This is why I'm here. So you reckon it's possible to "easily cold set to 130mm to fit a 10 speed groupset on."? That sounds promising.
To be honest, selling everything and buying again afresh, is something which is likely going to take quite a while. I know it would be perfectly contiguous to do so, but besides the time factor involved, I haven't budgeted for that. I'm a mature student gone back to UCC, and the aul funds are a bit tight. I know this must sound frustrating for you clog, after putting time and thought into presenting me with a solution which holds a lot of merit, but it really is the last thing I want to do.
If I was a damn bike mechanic, I would know what will work with what. It's frustrating in my (ignorant) situation that for such a relatively simple engineering issue, that all these professional bike mechanics can't just invest a bit of intuitive thought with their years of experience and bloody make it happen! It's not NASA level engineering!!
Anyway, thanks again clog for your input. Much appreciated.

Quigs Snr

Sionnach7 wrote: »

Cool
Is the "ofmega" a triple crank Quigs, yeah?

Thanks for that.

Ofmega is just a brand that was popular at the time. The crank otherwise looks like a campagnolo one.

Tonyandthewhale

As has been pointed out, a 7 speed freewheel block should fit on your existing wheel with the 126mm spacing. If you're willing to cold set the frame and stretch it out to 130mm (which is easy peasy and no problem with a steel frame 90% of the time) then you could fit modern 130mm wheels which would accommodate 8, 9, 10 or 11 speed cassettes. Your existing derailleur is probably a short cage, I don't know what how big a cog your existing derailleur will it, I'd say you're safe up to 25, might even go up as far as 27-28, which is plenty of gearing really.

If you get a 7 speed block a compact shouldn't be maddeningly gappy, should be quite functional with a 8, 9, 10 or 11 speed set-up.
If you want to use a triple then anything designed for 5,6,7,8 speed gearing can be regarded as interchangeable as it wasn't until things went to 9 speed that chains got narrower and chainsets started to follow. A 9 or 10 speed chainset can be made to work with a 5,6,7,8 speed chain. Personally I've used a 9 speed compact crankset with an 8 speed chain and block on a frame from 1983 and I had no problems. Not going to make any guarantees with 10 or 11 speed components though as I haven't tried personally.

If you do change the crankset you may find that while your old one is square taper a lot of the newer ones are Hollowtech II or the like. Stick with square taper if you want to keep a retro look but otherwise a Hollowtech II external cup bottom bracket will work fine, you'll just have to remove the old square taper BB and have the frame faced.

I'm surprised really that a bike shop told you to go away, standards haven't changed that much really and any bike shop in the country (except maybe halfords) is going to be dealing with late 80's/early 90's steel framed, 126mm spacing road bikes on a daily basis.

Your frame's going to have campag drop outs and integral derailleur hanger,either British or Italian threading on the bottom bracket and 126mm spacing (which can, if necessary, be stretched to 130mm), either a braze on-front mech or a perfectly normal diameter clamp-on and nothing unusual about Q-factor or bottom bracket width that'd upset things. I'm guessing the MA40 rims are 700c (someone in the thread here mentioned 27inch but I don't see why they would be). Basically there should be nothing exotic about your bike and while compatibility issues exist in any build the only real problem you have is not finding solutions to your compatibility issues but deciding which solution you like best. Don't go back to any bike shop that couldn't or wouldn't help you with that.

Tonyandthewhale

Oh, and btw I've used 9 speed derailleur's with 5,6,7,8 speed chains. Wouldn't use a 10 speed but never had a problem with 9, ideally though match parts that are compatible rather than parts that can be made work. If I was building a bike for myself I'd use whatever derailleur I had lying around, test it and see if it works, if I was building a bike for myself or buying new parts online specifically for a build I'd go with what I know to be 100% compatible.

hesker

Haven't read all this thread in detail but I can give you my experience.

I have several bikes of that vintage. 52/42 up front. Your first step should be to try a 26 cog in back. This won't require a long cage and will cost you less than a tenner off ebay, postage included.

I have this set up and can get up almost all hills I come across. Obviously the steepest ones are a problem but these are a rarity. I'm average enough on strength and fitness.

Anyway reckon you should try this before more drastic measures.

After that I'd look at the long cage options.

Sionnach7

Tony thanks for that, it was absolutely wonderful info. *Exactly* the kinds of specifics I needed to know. Fair play to you.

- I think I'll stick with the square taper unless something occurs which necessitates changing it. But thanks for the info on the Hollowtech as this is precisely the kind of thing I'd need to know should I have to change from square taper.
- It's an Italian thread BB and since it has a bit of play in it, I'd have to change it anyway.
- Yes quite right, Campnolo Brevs dropouts at the end....emmm..."integral derailleur hanger"...not sure what that is, sorry for ignorance. Yes, braze on front derailleur.
Tony I really am aghast at the things you are itemising here that you say are quite commonplace and non-exotic considering the STORIES I was hearing from reluctant bike shop mechanics. When you consider ALL the engine overhauls and replacements and suspensions and what-not that is done in the motor trade, building and re-building cars, engines and gearboxes, I really have developed a very poor impression of bike mechanics. In the light of what car mechanics do, they really seem like a very poor lot, lacking in what is, by comparison, far simpler engineering knowledge and aptitude, mixed in with a good dollop of laziness. They'd probably have a stroke if they watched an episode of "Cuban Chromers"
- Sorry yes, the MA40s are most certainly standard 700c. If you don't mind me imposing on you again, any ideas if corrosion can start *inside* the hubs? The outside of the bubs had a LOAD of 'furry' aluminium oxide, which I have only partially cleaned off (with great difficulty). "Astonish" household paste was the only thing that would put a dent on the corrosion. Cleaned up the spokes nicely, but again with a *LOAD* and load of elbow grease, excruciating and extremely time consuming.

I especially liked your distinction that "finding solutions to your compatibility issues" should NOT be any form of 'real' problem. My God, again, when I think of what car mechanics do....I wonder do bike "mechanics" even deserve that description of "mechanic" - certainly not the ones I've encountered. I've learned far more off of you, who are probably in the main, just hobbyist/enthusiasts.
I have to leave it there for now as have to go training on my road buzz aluminium brick!!
Thanks very much again though, talk later.

happytramp

A 28 tooth rear cog works absolutely fine with old 70's/80's derailleurs. I've got them on two steel bikes with downtube shifters and old Campagnolo short cage derailleurs.

clog

Suggestions :

Get a 25-28 freewheel
and/or
Get a compact crankset and new bottom bracket
or
Get a triple crankset, new bottom bracket, front mech and rear mech.
or
Put new 10/11 speed groupset and wheels on
or
Sell the Colnago and buy new carbon bike.

Also
(Your hubs will not corrode from the inside, the bearing races will be steel. Get yourself a tube of Autosol for cleaning ).

BTW you explained in you first post why a bike shop will not do the work

I've tried three bicycle shops who have said they're not interested, can't get the parts, the parts are just too expensive and that they are afraid of taking the chance of ordering in case of incompatibility and thence would not be able to return the parts etc.

It really comes down to time and money for the bikeshop not ignorance and laziness as you suggest. The proper parts are not available from normal distributors, have to be sourced second hand and could be of dubious quality.

It is not worth the reputational damage to bodge together something which 'may' work. I believe you are looking for a sub optimal solution on the cheap instead.


There is nothing else I could add