2017 World Tour transfer rumours (and facts)

pelevin

desertcircus wrote: »

There's a difference between Rupert Murdoch (awful politics, not exactly hugely worried about human rights abuses) and Sheikh Nasser (has been credibly accused of personally torturing people following the pro-democracy protests in Bahrain). I dislike Murdoch deeply, but Nasser is in a different league. Would you go to work and sit beside a boss you were pretty certain had personally tortured people?

I don't see it as a different league at all. If there is a political group looking to start a war & torture people - as for instance the neo-cons were - and there is a huge media element enthusiastically furthering that process, I regard them as inextricably linked.
Talking about someone being in a different league doesn't really cut it for me - it's very much the same league, and actually in terms of real impact & power, it's the Murdochs with their global media empire directly tapping into huge numbers' consciousnesses that imo are of a different league in terms of the scale of damage they can do. Not that that in any way makes someone else any cleaner by comparison.

desertcircus

pelevin wrote: »

I don't see it as a different league at all. If there is a political group looking to start a war & torture people - as for instance the neo-cons were - and there is a huge media element enthusiastically furthering that process, I regard them as inextricably linked.
Talking about someone being in a different league doesn't really cut it for me - it's very much the same league, and actually in terms of real impact & power, it's the Murdochs with their global media empire directly tapping into huge numbers' consciousnesses that imo are of a different league in terms of the scale of damage they can do. Not that that in any way makes someone else any cleaner by comparison.

There is a colossal difference between being indifferent to the use of torture and personally torturing someone, not least because a world in which everyone is merely indifferent to its use is a world where nobody actually uses it. Without people willing to commit acts of torture, that indifference does nothing; it takes a willing torturer to cross the line into human rights abuse.

pelevin

desertcircus wrote: »

There is a colossal difference between being indifferent to the use of torture and personally torturing someone, not least because a world in which everyone is merely indifferent to its use is a world where nobody actually uses it. Without people willing to commit acts of torture, that indifference does nothing; it takes a willing torturer to cross the line into human rights abuse.

I think that's willful naivety and ignorance. The propagandist element of a murderous regime is a seamless part of the whole, just as Goebbels wasn't 'indifferent' to or distinct from the actual guys doing the abusing. We're not talking about indifference, we're talking about cheerleaders for war & all the accompanying hells war brings about. And those neo-cons were btw formulating programs for such wars around the world years before 911 so there was nothing retaliatory about this stuff. How can someone otoh be a propagandist for war, & yet count as almost innocently indifferent? And Fox in the US is of level of far-rightedness that goes very far right, nothing mild about their propagandising.

I do sadly realise we've gone a little off the track of World Tour transfer rumours.

desertcircus

pelevin wrote: »

I think that's willful naivety and ignorance. The propagandist element of a murderous regime is a seamless part of the whole, just as Goebbels wasn't 'indifferent' to actual guys doing the abusing. We're not talking about indifference, we're talking about cheerleaders for war & all the accompanying hells war brings about. And those neo-cons were btw formulating programs for such wars around the world years before 911.

That is a remarkably spectacular Godwin for a debate about the ethics of funding cycling teams. "Propagandist element of a murderous regime"? Goebbels? We're talking about a cycling team which is funded in the main by sponsorship from a TV company which is 40% owned by a publicly-traded company which in turn is 40% owned by a family headed by a man who has shown little interest in defending civil and human rights, versus a cycling team which will be funded in the main by a man who beats detainees with a length of garden hose for the crime of wanting a less awful government. One of these things is not like the other, and wildly overstating the case against Team Sky does nothing to change that.

That said, this is probably neither here nor there for a thread about cycling transfers. I don't like Sheikh Nasser, and I'll be deliberately booing any riders on his team and avoiding buying anything made by the team's sponsors. Let's leave it there.

godtabh

So any cycling news?

Brian?

Matthews is leaving Orica? That's a strange one.

MPFGLB

Brian? wrote: »

Matthews is leaving Orica? That's a strange one.

Been on the cards for ages...he can't stand Gerrans and visa versa
Seemingly Orica keeping Gerrans and even transitioning him to a DS

I suppose you could say Orica are fast becoming a GT team now with Chaves & two Yeates

Need to buy mountian doms I suppose

godtabh

MPFGLB wrote: »

Been on the cards for ages...he can't stand Gerrans and visa versa
Seemingly Orica keeping Gerrans and even transitioning him to a DS

I suppose you could say Orica are fast becoming a GT team now with Chaves & two Yeates

Need to buy mountian doms I suppose

Never heard that before.

pelevin

desertcircus wrote: »

That is a remarkably spectacular Godwin for a debate about the ethics of funding cycling teams. "Propagandist element of a murderous regime"? Goebbels? We're talking about a cycling team which is funded in the main by sponsorship from a TV company which is 40% owned by a publicly-traded company which in turn is 40% owned by a family headed by a man who has shown little interest in defending civil and human rights, versus a cycling team which will be funded in the main by a man who beats detainees with a length of garden hose for the crime of wanting a less awful government. One of these things is not like the other, and wildly overstating the case against Team Sky does nothing to change that.

That said, this is probably neither here nor there for a thread about cycling transfers. I don't like Sheikh Nasser, and I'll be deliberately booing any riders on his team and avoiding buying anything made by the team's sponsors. Let's leave it there.

It's not remotely a Godwin or cheap wilful brining up of the Nazis to further an argument because since the most famous and virtually only famous political propagandist ever is undoubtedly Goebbels, there wasn't much point referring to any other one in relation to the point at hand. The Murdochs' actions as modern propagandists are reasonably placed within that lineage of the mass-media as mouthpieces & cheerleaders for vicious political elements.

I neither like this line of talk in a cycling thread but felt it an entirely apporopriate response unless we're just happy to be western head-in-the-sand gutless hypocrites. I'm sure I won't be wearing this Bahrain cycling kit the same as there's no way I'd buy Sky kit.

To add, I'd be happy enough for a mod to delete all our posts from the beginning of this exchange between desertcircus & myself.

pelevin

The Yates brothers could be the new Williams sisters.

MPFGLB

pelevin wrote: »

The Yates brothers could be the new Williams sisters.

Are you sure you donlt mean the new Beverly sisters ...They do have high voices

I think they are great but the Peloton (past & present) is littered with examples of riders who were 4th in the Tour and never got higher

pelevin

MPFGLB wrote: »

Are you sure you donlt mean the new Beverly sisters ...They do have high voices

I think they are great but the Peloton (past & present) is littered with examples of riders who were 4th in the Tour and never got higher

There does seem to have been quite a few expecting such a career trajectory for them though but as you say, wait & see. Going to Orica was definitely a wise move with the freedom to progress in their own manner & not be tied to domestique duties to bigger name GC riders. That in itself could be a fine learning curve too though.

Pudsy33

Brian? wrote: »

Matthews is leaving Orica? That's a strange one.

Him and Gerrans had a falling out and it seems to have split the team. I heard he was off to Giant.

gordongekko

One of those Yeats is a convicted doper. So I take their progress with a pinch of salt.

godtabh

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Him and Gerrans had a falling out and it seems to have split the team. I heard he was off to Giant.

any idea bout what?

Pudsy33

godtabh wrote: »

any idea bout what?

I seem to recall it was to do with Matthews refusing to work for Gerrans in a race last year. It may have been the worlds but I'm not 100%. By all accounts he's tough to get on with.

gordongekko

Pudsy33 wrote: »

I seem to recall it was to do with Matthews refusing to work for Gerrans in a race last year. It may have been the worlds but I'm not 100%. By all accounts he's tough to get on with.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gerrans-calls-on-orica-greenedge-management-to-call-shots-in-rift-with-matthews/

MPFGLB

Pudsy33 wrote: »

I seem to recall it was to do with Matthews refusing to work for Gerrans in a race last year. It may have been the worlds but I'm not 100%. By all accounts he's tough to get on with.

i don't like Matthews at all...of coure he and Gerrans are going for the same races and both ambitious but the World RR last year was a farce for the Aussie team

and again in the Ardennes with both in top 10 but neither working for the other

Happens all the time in teams where there are 2 similiar top riders ...I believe GVA & Gilbert don't get on...Aru & Nibali , etc

But at Orica it is toxic and caused major division

pelevin

gordongekko wrote: »

One of those Yeats is a convicted doper. So I take their progress with a pinch of salt.

W.B. or Jack?

pelevin

MPFGLB wrote: »

i don't like Matthews at all...of coure he and Gerrans are going for the same races and both ambitious but the World RR last year was a farce for the Aussie team

and again in the Ardennes with both in top 10 but neither working for the other

Happens all the time in teams where there are 2 similiar top riders ...I believe GVA & Gilbert don't get on...Aru & Nibali , etc

But at Orica it is toxic and caused major division

Maybe if I actually knew him I'd think he's fine but at a distance Matthews doesn't come across to me as the most appealing character.

neris

pelevin wrote: »

Maybe if I actually knew him I'd think he's fine but at a distance Matthews doesn't come across to me as the most appealing character.

Comes across as a bit of an ego whos more interested in living the high life then working harder to become better. Even the nickname "bling" sounds like something a medicore premiership player would call himself.

MPFGLB

So Purito retires after the Olympic Race next week...

WinnyThePoo

That's mad with Matthews!. What am ssset to lose. He will do well wherever he goes.

MPFGLB

So Sagan & entourag eof 4 other riders from Tinkoff to Bora ..confirmed

Therfore Sam Bennett will ride in the same team

Majka rumoured tocome across too....Imo Bennett may not ride the Tour again for a while

MPFGLB

Astana signs
Moreno Moser (Cannondale)
Oscar Gatto (Tinkoff)
Jesper Hansen (Tinkoff)
Michael Valgren Andersen (Tinkoff)

TheBlaaMan

Kreuziger move to ORICA BikeExchange confirmed. Despite strong rumours of moving to Katusha....
http://www.greenedgecycling.com/news/game-changing-kreuziger-joins-orica-bikeexchange.phps

neris

Nico off to BMC

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/irelands-nicolas-roche-to-leave-team-sky-and-join-bmc-34928852.html

Trev De rev

http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/nicolas-roche-signs-for-bmc-racing-team/ Good move for Roche?

godtabh

How long has Roche signed for?

I wonder was there a falling out at Sky? Not riding Tour probably confirmed hai exit

godtabh

How long has Roche signed for?

I wonder was there a falling out at Sky? Not riding Tour probably confirmed his exit