Keeping firearm in a car

PSXDupe

Sparks wrote: »

Not saying that that's categorically wrong barnaman, because the firearms act is such a mess, but I can't find the section of it that says what you say it says, and the section of it that sets out the conditions for granting a licence does not have that listed in it explicitly.

Also, if it was in there explicitly, then it would not serve any purpose for the Super or Chief Super to put it in the conditions of the licence because it'd be just repeating itself.

Can you find and quote the section that contains that condition please?

I've never seen it either, I know the super can add it as an additional. Luckily I've never had it added to any of mine

Heckler

C'mon we've all done. Stop on the way to the range, pull in for petrol and a coffee etc. Just keep it in the boot and you'll be fine.

I have a chain and padlock attached to the car chassis I can secure to the rifle trigger guard if I'm feeling really paranoid. If I have my pistol with me I leave it in the boot and take the slide with me. Likewise with the rifle bolt.

If I have the pistol only with me and I need to stop for more than 5 minutes I take the bag (an aldi fishing bag) with the whole lot with me. My licence says "you are hereby authorised to have in your possession, use and carry a pistol/rifle /etc subject to any conditions etc."

Even when taking my rifle to the car from my house in a sling I wrap it in a black plastic bin bag to disguise what it is. Overly paranoid no doubt but no harm done.

I wouldn't go strolling in to the local Aldi with a rifle in a soft case over my shoulder even if it is permitted. Just going to attract attention.

I'd wager everyone of us has breached the terms of our licences either accidently or on purpose in a number of ways.

Terms of licence having an alarm in the house. Popped to the shop for 5 mins and didn't put the alarm on ? Breach. etc. etc.

Found you had 20 rounds more than you were supposed to ? What are you going to do ? Turn yourself in ? Bit of sense is all thats needed.

Sparks

Heckler wrote: »

Just keep it in the boot and you'll be fine.

Until you're not, at which point you learn the difference between "it's grand" and "it's grand until someone catches you".

Which isn't to say you're doing something that puts the public at risk, btw, just that the law is an ass.

Terms of licence having an alarm in the house. Popped to the shop for 5 mins and didn't put the alarm on ? Breach. etc. etc.

Oddly, no. The licences says you have to have an alarm, not that it has to be on. Now your insurance might have a few words if you tried to claim on it if the alarm was off, but according to the firearms act, you were grand...

Bit of sense is all thats needed.

Yup. Good luck finding any of that in the Firearms Act though. I've been looking for a while now and really haven't found too much sense in there at all.

Heckler

Sparks wrote: »

Until you're not, at which point you learn the difference between "it's grand" and "it's grand until someone catches you".

Which isn't to say you're doing something that puts the public at risk, btw, just that the law is an ass.


Oddly, no. The licences says you have to have an alarm, not that it has to be on. Now your insurance might have a few words if you tried to claim on it if the alarm was off, but according to the firearms act, you were grand...


Yup. Good luck finding any of that in the Firearms Act though. I've been looking for a while now and really haven't found too much sense in there at all.

Well I wouldn't be worried about the insurance side of things if a firearm was stolen. I'd be more worried about the PTB asking was the alarm on. And while it may not be explicitly said I'm pretty sure that when the Guards say you have to have an alarm they mean that you actually use it. But I agree with you, its a mess.

meathstevie

I for example can for practical reasons ( I drive an open back pick up truck ) not comply with the different compartment of vehicle for transport guideline. Just about all local Gardaí know my old clunker. Didn't cause any issues for renewals or obtaining an additional certificate last year and this year. Safe handling and reasonable precautions are key. A car or a van are not safe storage locations as in most cases simply smashing a window and a quick grab will do the job.

I've personally seen a case from close by in the North where a man had stored one of his shotgun in a car and went duck shooting on an island with another gun and the remaining gun was stolen from the car. He was prosecuted for breeching conditions, fined and licence revoked. It's a different jurisdiction but I reckon the outcome in a local scenario wouldn't be wildly different.

barnaman

Sparks pretty certain I saw it in a Criminal Justice Misc. Provisons Act. Cannot find which one now! Leaving a firearm in a car unattended would get you done IMO on public safety grounds anyway. If removed bolt etc say place you in a better position.

Sparks

There's only the one Criminal Justice (Misc.Provisions) Act that amends the Firearms Act barnaman (it's the 2009 one) and it doesn't say that. In fact, that Act doesn't amend section four at all (section four is where the mandatory legal conditions for granting a firearms cert are listed).

Section 4 currently looks like this:

Conditions of grant of firearm certificate.
4.— (1) An issuing person shall not grant a firearm certificate unless he or she is satisfied that the applicant complies with the conditions referred to in subsection (2) and will continue to comply with them during the currency of the certificate.

(2) The conditions subject to which a firearm certificate may be granted are that, in the opinion of the issuing person, the applicant—

(a) has a good reason for requiring the firearm in respect of which the certificate is applied for,

(b) can be permitted to possess, use and carry the firearm and ammunition without danger to the public safety or security or the peace,

(c) is not a person declared by this Act to be disentitled to hold a firearm certificate,

(d) has provided secure accommodation for the firearm and ammunition at the place where it is to be kept,

(e) where the firearm is a rifle or pistol to be used for target shooting, is a member of an authorised rifle or pistol club,

(f) has complied with subsection (3),

(g) complies with such other conditions (if any) specified in the firearm certificate, including any such conditions to be complied with before a specified date as the issuing person considers necessary in the interests of public safety or security, and

(h) in case the application is for a restricted firearm certificate—

(i) has a good and sufficient reason for requiring such a firearm, and

(ii) has demonstrated that the firearm is the only type of weapon that is appropriate for the purpose for which it is required.

(3) An applicant for a firearm certificate shall supply to the issuing person the information requested in the application form and such further information as the issuing person may require in the performance of the person’s functions under this Act, including, in particular—

(a) proof of identity,

(b) proof of competence in the use of the firearm concerned,

(c) written consent for any enquiries in relation to the applicant’s medical history that may be made from a health professional by or on behalf of the issuing person, and

(d) names and addresses of two referees who may be contacted to attest to the applicant’s character.

(4) A member of the Garda Síochána may inspect the accommodation for a firearm provided by an applicant for a firearm certificate or require the applicant to provide proof of its existence.

(5) The Minister, in consultation with the Commissioner, may by regulations provide for minimum standards to be complied with by holders of firearm certificates in relation to the provision of secure accommodation for their firearms.

(6) In this section “health professional” means doctor or psychiatrist registered under any enactments governing the profession concerned or a clinical psychologist.

Your super or chief super could add in the condition that the firearm had to be under your control at all times, but if he did, I'd refuse to accept that condition because you can't be in control of the firearms at all times and sleep or go to work. Unless, of course, you slept in the gun safe and took the firearm to work, neither of which is terribly pleasant as solutions go

Wadi14

Annex C of the Commissioners Guidelines, under no circumstances should a firearm or ammo be left unattended even for short periods in vehicles as these are not secure.

Sparks

Yup, but those are the Pirate Code.



I mean, we've had discussions in the last decade or so where things like deadlocks on car boots, welded-in padlock attachment points, welded-to-the-chassis lockboxes and other measures have all been mentioned as acceptable measures in the event someone has to leave the car for short periods - and I mean mentioned by Gardai. There's no actual law covering it at the moment, it's mostly being left to common sense (which is legalese for "there's no law covering what you should have done so if anything does go wrong, you've no way to show due diligence shy of a court case, and nobody's really working on it at the moment").

Personally, I wouldn't risk it, and just drive to the destination nonstop, but I have the luxury of short car journeys. Someone travelling from (say) Kerry to Dublin for the nationals doesn't have that luxury, and the RSA's advice to them is to take a rest stop along the way. So if the Gardai say one thing and the RSA say the other and you're the one making the mistake if you do either mutually exclusive option and the other choice comes up after an accident of some sort... well, it's a fecal sandwich of a situation.

One for the FCP methinks...

barnaman

This is a naive question but do/have you lads who are comp. shooters at a high level raised it with the Minister for Sport/Justice?

Sparks

Minister for Sport wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. I understood it got raised at the FCP when it was first formed, but never got settled due to the fun and games that interrupted the FCP process. I'd hope that it'd be on the agenda now that the FCP's going again, though it's down the list behind things like reloading and so on.

Heckler

In terms of secure storage requirements, what do people traveling as mentioned above, say from kerry to dublin for a comp, do ?

Assuming they are overnighting in a hotel, B&B, with friends or family etc. ?

Can't leave it in the car. Maybe want to socialise out the night before the comp ? Gonna stay in the hotel room with the firearm ? Leave it under the bed while you head out for a while ?

All of the above would seem to breach secure storage requirements.

IRLConor

Heckler wrote: »

In terms of secure storage requirements, what do people traveling as mentioned above, say from kerry to dublin for a comp, do ?

Assuming they are overnighting in a hotel, B&B, with friends or family etc. ?

Can't leave it in the car. Maybe want to socialise out the night before the comp ? Gonna stay in the hotel room with the firearm ? Leave it under the bed while you head out for a while ?

All of the above would seem to breach secure storage requirements.

In my experience (mostly abroad, but a few times here) secure storage is arranged by the organisers of the competition. Abroad, it's been an armoury at the range. Here, it's been the friendly local RFD.

All the ranges here that I've visited either have an onsite RFD or a good working relationship with one nearby so I suspect that's the simplest option for overnight secure storage in Ireland.