Lay of the land: Ministers hack away at upland wildlife habitats

rangler1

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

It is a bit of a contradiction, though, to fine one farm for having natural wildlife habitats yet pay another one to create an artificial one.

Why apply for SFP on land that you're not going to farm properly, Would you put your car in for NCT knowing you're not maintaining it properly.
It'd be lovely if i could get my SFP and never bother to farm it, ireland'd be a rough looking spot then.

Buford T. Justice XIX

rangler1 wrote: »

Why apply for SFP on land that you're not going to farm properly, Would you put your car in for NCT knowing you're not maintaining it properly.
It'd be lovely if i could get my SFP and never bother to farm it, ireland'd be a rough looking spot then.

Rushes are called Kerry barley down here for a reason, rangler. It's almost impossible to farm in huge swathes of the county without Rushes popping up. And rainfall doesn't always allow farmers to cut rushes on heavy ground to keep them under control. Kerry rainfall is twice what you receive during the year in the Midlands.

Chuchote

Isn't it a question of what you consider to be 'farming properly' too? Fallow land and land kept wild for the protection of wildlife could be part of a good farming plan.

rangler1

Chuchote wrote: »

Isn't it a question of what you consider to be 'farming properly' too? Fallow land and land kept wild for the protection of wildlife could be part of a good farming plan.

It doesn't matter what i think good farming is, the rules are plain in the Ts and Cs of the basic payment scheme, you either comply or do without.

Capercaillie

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Rushes are called Kerry barley down here for a reason, rangler. It's almost impossible to farm in huge swathes of the county without Rushes popping up. And rainfall doesn't always allow farmers to cut rushes on heavy ground to keep them under control. Kerry rainfall is twice what you receive during the year in the Midlands.

Widespread illegal hedgecutting in my area by locals and council. Widespread illegal burning of scrub/heather as well out of season. Government/council turn a blind eye. Nothing will be done until somebody is killed. In mean time species like curlew on the verge of extinction due to habitat loss ( + several other issues).

Chuchote

Capercaillie wrote: »

Nothing will be done until somebody is killed. In mean time species like curlew on the verge of extinction due to habitat loss ( + several other issues).

And then there will be howls and a temporary crackdown, followed by lassitude. Look at the ragwort if you want to see what'll happen.

Curlews? You think Irish farmers care about curlews?

Buford T. Justice XIX

Chuchote wrote: »

And then there will be howls and a temporary crackdown, followed by lassitude. Look at the ragwort if you want to see what'll happen.

Curlews? You think Irish farmers care about curlews?

Not really. Most are struggling to pay the bills and put food on the table. Any money received from Europe has halved in value since the SFP brought in between modulation and inflation and now convergence is taking a lot more from some and giving most of it back to those with lower value entitlements.

Given the choice, would you care a whole lot for the curlew if that option was taking money out of your pocket?

Edit. On ragworth, the vast majority of ragworth I see around me is found on government owned land, not farmers land.

Chuchote

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Not really. Most are struggling to pay the bills and put food on the table. Any money received from Europe has halved in value since the SFP brought in between modulation and inflation and now convergence is taking a lot more from some and giving most of it back to those with lower value entitlements.

Given the choice, would you care a whole lot for the curlew if that option was taking money out of your pocket?

Edit. On ragworth, the vast majority of ragworth I see around me is found on government owned land, not farmers land.

I suppose it depends. If I had enough money (and my own requirement for money is not a great one), the curlew would be welcome to my help. But 'enough money' is a variable thing; do I want a couple of expensive 4X4s, some holidays in nice places staying in good hotels… no, for my part, but for some people this would be a requirement.

Yes, the ragwort on the long acre and on government land is… astonishing.

_Brian

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Not really. Most are struggling to pay the bills and put food on the table. Any money received from Europe has halved in value since the SFP brought in between modulation and inflation and now convergence is taking a lot more from some and giving most of it back to those with lower value entitlements.

Given the choice, would you care a whole lot for the curlew if that option was taking money out of your pocket?

Edit. On ragworth, the vast majority of ragworth I see around me is found on government owned land, not farmers land.

My neighbor seems to have some sort of ragworth breeding program underway. Very successful too

laoch na mona

_Brian wrote: »

My neighbor seems to have some sort of ragworth breeding program underway. Very successful too

field across from my home place looks like he planted it

rangler1

laoch na mona wrote: »

field across from my home place looks like he planted it

It really annoys me to have my BPS reduced to give to that sort of farming, They obviously don't need or deserve subsidising

freedominacup

rangler1 wrote: »

It really annoys me to have my BPS reduced to give to that sort of farming, They obviously don't need or deserve subsidising

They're the type of really well off farmers the country is full of who would according to themselves be better off if they rented/leased out their land. It must be great to be in that position.

_Brian

The guy beside me is a bachelor just surviving on pension and bps cattle are just amusement. No ditching, hedges fencing, never tops, sprays or any care of land.

Genghis Cant

I think a One Size Fits All approach fails miserable. The countryside is made up of many different habitat types that require very specific actions, or in some cases no action at all!
A bugbear of mine is the eco terrorism carried out by Waterways Ireland along our canals. An absolute fixation in places with manicured banks and towpaths, and not a weed in sight for a pinkeen to hid behind. Some Tidy Towns fall into the same trap, though I see others with signs up on unkempt areas labelling them as wildlife corridors or areas of biodiversity!
Yellowhammers were mentioned above, and elsewhere I've read reports of their decline and endangered status. This year around here I've never seen or heard as much of them. Maybe they're on the way back!

Buford T. Justice XIX

_Brian wrote: »

My neighbor seems to have some sort of ragworth breeding program underway. Very successful too

A friend of mine had the same trouble so he went into the neighbours yard to have a word. Turns out the neighbour was having some health problems so he went in and pulled them himself. That winter the neighbour offered him the land to rent and he still has it rented from the man.

Capercaillie

Chuchote wrote: »

And then there will be howls and a temporary crackdown, followed by lassitude. Look at the ragwort if you want to see what'll happen.

Curlews? You think Irish farmers care about curlews?

I'm a part time farmer and I do care about curlew/cornrake/lapwing etc.

Capercaillie

Chuchote wrote: »

Isn't it a question of what you consider to be 'farming properly' too? Fallow land and land kept wild for the protection of wildlife could be part of a good farming plan.

More active management than leaving wild is needed though, especially if trying to protect endangered species.

Chuchote

Capercaillie wrote: »

More active management than leaving wild is needed though, especially if trying to protect endangered species.

Mmmaybe.

Look what happened to the 200 metres or so on either side of the Iron Curtain, which was free of humans for half a century:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/nature/european-green-belt/

the_syco

Chuchote wrote: »

I would certainly be an enviro lobby supporter (or part of ~brigade, as I suspect you might regard me ) but it's more than that; to have a good farming country we also need to have a good wildlife country, imho.

Would I be correct in saying that due to stupid laws, it'll be soon (or now?) easier to have absolutely no hedges at all?

ganmo

the_syco wrote: »

Would I be correct in saying that due to stupid laws, it'll be soon (or now?) easier to have absolutely no hedges at all?

yes regs dictate that we can't cut them, spray weeds or spread slurry near them. so without hedges we could ignore all that regulation.

now when I say weeds I include briars which can kill sheep as they go into the hedge for shelter get tied up in them and can't get out

note - when talking about cutting hedges we mean trimming them back not uprooting them. as it stands we can't destroy a hedge without planting one the same length before attacking the existing one

_Brian

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

A friend of mine had the same trouble so he went into the neighbours yard to have a word. Turns out the neighbour was having some health problems so he went in and pulled them himself. That winter the neighbour offered him the land to rent and he still has it rented from the man.

Fair enough. This lad has been farming this way for the 30 years I can remember and in that time the only change has been to inherit another ~20 acres which is being ran down too.
I wouldn't care about anything else other than the ragworth, it seeds everywhere so easily.

Birdnuts

ganmo wrote: »

yes regs dictate that we can't cut them, spray weeds or spread slurry near them. so without hedges we could ignore all that regulation.

now when I say weeds I include briars which can kill sheep as they go into the hedge for shelter get tied up in them and can't get out

note - when talking about cutting hedges we mean trimming them back not uprooting them. as it stands we can't destroy a hedge without planting one the same length before attacking the existing one

A well maintained stock-proof hedge is an asset on any farm, especcially livestock. Stock with no shelter from heat,rain,wind etc. will not thrive as well as those who have access to a well maintained hedge. Problems as you describe can be avoided by fencing off the hedge. Poorly maintained hedges are an issue in this country as the old skills of laying and coppicing a hedge properly have mostly been lost and as far as I can see most hedge contractors nowadays are utterly clueless when it comes to properly shaping,trimming etc. hedges. Most go for a crude slash job that often causes damage to the hedge structure, creating problems like excessive briar growth etc.

Chuchote

Birdnuts wrote: »

A well maintained stock-proof hedge is an asset on any farm, especcially livestock. Stock with no shelter from heat,rain,wind etc. will not thrive as well as those who have access to a well maintained hedge. Problems as you describe can be avoided by fencing off the hedge. Poorly maintained hedges are an issue in this country as the old skills of laying and coppicing a hedge properly have mostly been lost and as far as I can see most hedge contractors nowadays are utterly clueless when it comes to properly shaping,trimming etc. hedges. Most go for a crude slash job that often causes damage to the hedge structure, creating problems like excessive briar growth etc.

What plant mixtures would you recommend in good hedges?

Genghis Cant

Chuchote wrote: »

What plant mixtures would you recommend in good hedges?

I've put in a nice bit of hedging here.
Probably 75% Whitethorn mixed with Holly, beech, spindle, dog rose, green privet, Hazel, and blackthorn. It's getting into a lovely hedge, the Rose is great in it, great summer colour and great rosehips from now on.

ganmo

Birdnuts wrote: »

A well maintained stock-proof hedge is an asset on any farm, especcially livestock. Stock with no shelter from heat,rain,wind etc. will not thrive as well as those who have access to a well maintained hedge. Problems as you describe can be avoided by fencing off the hedge. Poorly maintained hedges are an issue in this country as the old skills of laying and coppicing a hedge properly have mostly been lost and as far as I can see most hedge contractors nowadays are utterly clueless when it comes to properly shaping,trimming etc. hedges. Most go for a crude slash job that often causes damage to the hedge structure, creating problems like excessive briar growth etc.

stockproof hedging needing to be fenced anyway? i don't see any hedge as stock proof. yes hedges are mostly an asset but there are some spots that suffer from over shading from the hedges
all hedging here is fenced with sheep wire, none were trimmed last year so they're fairly wild

i've been walking the hedges recently with a pliers in my pocket pulling briars that are growing out into the field good or bad i don't know but i just hate the fecking things

the crux of the problem is that farmers earn money by working the ground and harvesting crops be it grass, grain or vegetable thats their main focus many don't give a second thought to biodiversity or protected animals(well except the problem ones badger + deer). I see that as a failure of environmentalists to educate them of the habitats etc so that farmers can appreciate their workplace in a different way

Genghis Cant

ganmo wrote: »

stockproof hedging needing to be fenced anyway? i don't see any hedge as stock proof.

I think you're spot on. Even an established hedge wouldn't stand a chance if livestock had unfettered access.
We just fence with one strand of electric wire.