Non - Catholic Wedding = Unhappy Catholic Parents

BlueLagoon1

Myself and my fiancée have recently got engaged after five years together and are planning a non-religious ceremony. We were both raised as Catholics in the West of Ireland by Catholic parents. Growing up and making up our own minds separately we have both become disillusioned with the Catholic Church and we do not feel it reflects our beliefs.

Neither of us attend mass regularly and we believe it would be dishonest to both us and practicing Catholics to go with tradition and use the Church for our ceremony.

We have decided we do not wish to raise our family (should we be lucky enough to have one) as Catholic. We firmly believe that our parents had a choice to choose our religion and now we as adults have the right to choose what is best for us as our own family unit.

We recently told our parents we would not be having a church wedding but rather a humanist ceremony. Both mothers were totally unhappy - one has said she will not attend the ceremony and will not see our marriage as 'real'. The other is more concerned about what others will think and is acting as if we are being rebellious children.

I am so hurt by their reaction and I am now finding it difficult to be excited about marrying the love of my life. It feels as if the two of the people who are supposed to care the most about us are choosing religion over their children.

This has got to be happening more and more in Ireland and I am wondering if anyone is experiencing this same hurtful reaction. Has anyone got any advice for this difficult time?

looksee

Of course your families are going to be unhappy about your decision - they are Catholics and whether they believe in god, cannot see past tradition, or simply cannot cope with what 'other people will think', you are showing that you reject the basis on which they raised you.

However the most striking paragraph is the one that reads

I am so hurt by their reaction and I am now finding it difficult to be excited about marrying the love of my life. It feels as if the two of the people who are supposed to care the most about us are choosing religion over their children.

Really? Your need for your parents' approval is greater than your love for your future husband? And if you look at the second sentence, it could be argued that your mothers are not so much choosing religion over their children, as wanting what they see as best for their children.

For now, just stop discussing it with them, go ahead with your plans, if you are asked just calmly reiterate that the wedding is going ahead. And hope that they will come round. If they don't come round and you allow this to stop your wedding, then maybe the relationship is not as strong as it should be. Don't row with them, don't be the cause of family break up, and give them a bit of time to digest the idea.

Lisha

Like it or not you are probably the first offspring of your parents peers to go down the humanist route, especially for a first marriage.
You and your fiancée have made your decision, and your families will have to put on their grown up knickers and wish you well.
Put it this way how would you feel if your fiancé asked you to alter your plAns to satisfy his/her parents, his would you feel?

Best of luck with you wedding and more importantly with your marriage .

macchoille

Push comes to the shove I can't see the Mammies actually missing the wedding. End of the day your wedding is your wedding and not your respective mother's. You are both adults now and as such are free to make your own decisions.

CPTM

BlueLagoon1 wrote:

We recently told our parents we would not be having a church wedding but rather a humanist ceremony. Both mothers were totally unhappy - one has said she will not attend the ceremony and will not see our marriage as 'real'. The other is more concerned about what others will think and is acting as if we are being rebellious children.

I feel for you Op, this hasn't happened me but has happened a number of my friends alright. Normally it's the result of the parent having a picture in their head for so long and not being happy that the reality is a bit different. When all the planning started, and invites were out, and a bit of time passed, it seemed they accepted what was happening and supported it in the end. Maybe give them a bit of time and they might come around?

looksee wrote:

Really? Your need for your parents' approval is greater than your love for your future husband?

Was curious how you knew a husband was in question here and not a wife! I feel like there was a clue in the original post and I can't find it - I feel like it's staring me in the face and I can't see it!

looksee

Yes, you are right - fiancee in the first sentence. Answer still stands though (with wife instead of husband ).

robindch

BlueLagoon1 wrote: »

We recently told our parents we would not be having a church wedding but rather a humanist ceremony. Both mothers were totally unhappy - one has said she will not attend the ceremony and will not see our marriage as 'real'. The other is more concerned about what others will think and is acting as if we are being rebellious children.

Both reactions are unhappy common - personally, I'd recommend you be as polite, but insistent, as possible and that you both do exactly whatever you both want to do - it's your day not theirs, its your relationship not theirs and its your commitments to each other, not theirs. It's quite likely that they'll come around in time anyway, especially as the day draws near and the hats and cakes need to be bought.

Letting slip on this one may also encourage them to think that they can get gain other concessions in times to come by applying similar pressure - and the forum is rife with stories about mothers and mothers-in-law exerting unhelpful religious pressure about baptisms, schools, first communion and so on.

BTW, my family's had one elderly female relative threaten not to go to any more non-catholic weddings in the family and nobody's all that worried - especially given her behavior at the most recent wedding a few weeks back where she showed up, burst into tears in the church when she saw who was taking communion, then caused major ructions at the wedding dinner by accusing other rellies of being "blasphemers" who "sleep around with whoever they want to" - she's unlikely to be invited for anything more than a bag of chips.

The best of luck with the day and everything!

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

BTW, my family's had one elderly female relative threaten not to go to any more non-catholic weddings in the family and nobody's all that worried - especially given her behavior at the most recent wedding a few weeks back where she showed up, burst into tears in the church when she saw who was taking communion, then caused major ructions at the wedding dinner by accusing other rellies of being "blasphemers" who "sleep around with whoever they want to" - she's unlikely to be invited for anything more than a bag of chips.

:pac:
Can you explain the bolded bit - is there a certain priest she regards as not draconian enough for her tastes, or is it that persons 'living in sin' were availing of the holy crackers?

lazygal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

:pac:
Can you explain the bolded bit - is there a certain priest she regards as not draconian enough for her tastes, or is it that persons 'living in sin' were availing of the holy crackers?

You're supposed to be in a state of grace to receive communion so maybe she was wondering why people who aren't were partaking of the sacrament.

Hotblack Desiato

Yeah probably, but 'taking communion' could possibly mean doling them out - similar to 'Father Feehily is taking confession today'.

looksee

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

:pac:
Can you explain the bolded bit - is there a certain priest she regards as not draconian enough for her tastes, or is it that persons 'living in sin' were availing of the holy crackers?

The priest would be giving, serving or offering the host, not 'taking communion' in the sense of, say, 'taking a service'. The communicants 'take comunion'.

Help!!!!

Whats the difference between a humanist ceremony & a civil wedding?

mfceiling

The sooner the whole church nonsense dies away the better.

Oul ones with a bee in their bonnet about mass, the priest, the communion and everything in between. Go on with themselves.

It's your choice OP...feck everyone else.

*if you are a practicing Catholic and you want the whole church ceremony then the very best of luck to you...if you don't then please let the rest of us do as we want without making a song and dance about it*

looksee

Whats the difference between a humanist ceremony & a civil wedding?

A civil wedding is the way of describing the legal stuff that goes on in a registry office. A humanist ceremony is the same legal stuff dressed up with some humanist type talk and ceremony, in much the same way that a religious ceremony is the legal stuff dressed up with religious type talk and ceremony.

An Claidheamh

The difference is civil ceremonies are for people who just want to be married.

Humanist ones are for fad followers who make childish snide remarks about symbolic age-old Catholic ceremonies..... and then hypocritically invoke the same stuff in a Humanist ceremony.

Not noting the irony.

Help!!!!

looksee wrote: »

A civil wedding is the way of describing the legal stuff that goes on in a registry office. A humanist ceremony is the same legal stuff dressed up with some humanist type talk and ceremony, in much the same way that a religious ceremony is the legal stuff dressed up with religious type talk and ceremony.

Maybe the OP would be better going for a civil wedding instead then. There are some great venues around the country that will do civil weddings

An Claidheamh

mfceiling wrote: »

The sooner the whole church nonsense dies away the better.

Oul ones with a bee in their bonnet about mass, the priest, the communion and everything in between. Go on with themselves.

It's your choice OP...feck everyone else.

*if you are a practicing Catholic and you want the whole church ceremony then the very best of luck to you...if you don't then please let the rest of us do as we want without making a song and dance about it*

I hate to break it to you and the O P but Humanist ceremonies are the whole Church ceremony!.... People just won't accept that. You can spot a pretentious hipster by the way they give out about "stupid this and that" and then have no problem with it at their ceremony.

Are they even practicing humanists?....
Of course not!

Booking a hotel and having a civil ceremony is just not good enough for the Celtic cubs.

marienbad

Hi OP

Just go with what is best for you and your partner , the parents will come round pretty soon . Just don't force it with them - be firm though and avoid discussions on your decision . It is made -end of . Discuss all ye want on arrangements etc but the decision itself is done

I was at a Naming ceremony instead of a Christening recently and initially the same old reservations were trotted out , but at the end of the day everyone was there and loving it .

Good luck on the big day

catbear

Went away to get married as I'd always been adamant that a RCC wedding was a no go. However mother in law is a staunch RCC (thinks clerical child abuse is a media invention) so the compromise was we went to Malta, civil service which was perfect and had party back home. Mother in law is frail so we knew she wouldn't travel.

Had a few photos taken there in what looked like an RCC church, worked a treat.

I'll burn in hell undoubtably for my deception, along with all the media who invented child sex abuse stories.

Placid_Casual

An Claidheamh wrote: »

I hate to break it to you and the O P but Humanist ceremonies are the whole Church ceremony!.... People just won't accept that. You can spot a pretentious hipster by the way they give out about "stupid this and that" and then have no problem with it at their ceremony.

Are they even practicing humanists?....
Of course not!

Booking a hotel and having a civil ceremony is just not good enough for the Celtic cubs.

Except they're not, as there's no mention of God or religion allowed in Humanist ceremonies. Although, much of the ceremony may be the same besides that (you basically write your own ceremony), the absence of any religious element is kind of the point
And there's absolutely zero requirement to be a "practicing humanist", whatever that actually is, to have a humanist ceremony.

Also, you can't have a regular civil ceremony on Saturdays which is when many people actually want to have their wedding.

In response to the OP, all I can offer is my sympathy. We are having a Humanist ceremony for our wedding but fortunately haven't had any negative reaction from either family.

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

[...] she showed up, burst into tears in the church when she saw who was taking communion, [...]

Can you explain the bolded bit - is there a certain priest she regards as not draconian enough for her tastes, or is it that persons 'living in sin' were availing of the holy crackers?

The second. Some (partially-catholic) rellies from the USA had flown in and showed up at the mass and she dissolved into tears, shoulders heaving a little bit theatrically, tears running down her face, when she saw they were heading up for crackers despite them "sleeping around" with their long-term partners in the hotel the previous evening. After mass, she went up and gave the priest a piece of her mind - he hadn't denounced such behaviour from the pulpit in fiery terms, or indeed, at all. And had instead, rather wisely I thought, declined, with thanks, the invitation to the wedding dinner.

In all honesty, it was a fairly sad performance, only to be outdone a few hours later by the theatricals over dinner, and the only sharp edges on what was otherwise a rather wonderful day.

FutureGuy

There are two people that matter here. you and your fiancée.

Do what makes you both happy. If someone doesn't turn up because of that, then it's a reflection on them.

lazygal

An Claidheamh wrote: »

I hate to break it to you and the O P but Humanist ceremonies are the whole Church ceremony!.... People just won't accept that. You can spot a pretentious hipster by the way they give out about "stupid this and that" and then have no problem with it at their ceremony.

Are they even practicing humanists?....
Of course not!

Booking a hotel and having a civil ceremony is just not good enough for the Celtic cubs.

I hate to break it to you, but I think you're a bit misinformed.
We had a humanist ceremony, we are members of HAI and there was no religion whatseover, we even passed over a number of suggested readings that had references to blessings or pagan and spiritual woo we're not into at all. I don't think we're pretentious hipsters either, we just wanted a ceremony we could have that truely represented us. The civil ceremony we did the week before was fine, although the celebrant got my husband's name wrong during the vows and the setting in Grand Canal Dock was not very attractive.
There is no way to 'practice' humanism at all. It isn't trying to replace religion or ape it, it simply is what it is.

fits

We had this issue with our parents. Just give them time but let them know its not up for discussion.

toptom

robindch wrote: »

The second. Some (partially-catholic) rellies from the USA had flown in and showed up at the mass and she dissolved into tears, shoulders heaving a little bit theatrically, tears running down her face, when she saw they were heading up for crackers despite them "sleeping around" with their long-term partners in the hotel the previous evening. After mass, she went up and gave the priest a piece of her mind - he hadn't denounced such behaviour from the pulpit in fiery terms, or indeed, at all. And had instead, rather wisely I thought, declined, with thanks, the invitation to the wedding dinner.

In all honesty, it was a fairly sad performance, only to be outdone a few hours later by the theatricals over dinner, and the only sharp edges on what was otherwise a rather wonderful day.

Maybe the poor woman has just had enough of the tomfoolery and disrespect given to the church nowadays.

looksee

toptom wrote: »

Maybe the poor woman has just had enough of the tomfoolery and disrespect given to the church nowadays.

No, it was attention seeking - one of those people who cannot bear to have other people the centre of attention.

jackboy

OP, keep in mind that your parents were brainwashed as children and throughout their youth by the RCC. This isn't their fault and they are unlikely to change at this point.

Hotblack Desiato

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Are they even practicing humanists?....
Of course not!

Ooh - do tell what 'practicing humanists' do.

I'm not really into the 'humanist' label, but once the aliens among us make themselves known, by default we'll all be humanists

<.<

>.>


:pac:

lazygal wrote: »

The civil ceremony we did the week before was fine, although the celebrant got my husband's name wrong during the vows and the setting in Grand Canal Dock was not very attractive.

The former is unfortunate, but also common enough in RC ceremonies...

The latter I have to disagree with, we got married just short of ten years ago in Grand Canal Street and we were perfectly happy with the venue, we'd checked it out before while making arrangements. No complaints from the predominantly RC grandparent generation either although there was at least one prod in attendance - my uncle - who had to run off with my mother's sister approx. 1970 to West Berlin to get married, caused a bit of scandal :pac: 'mixed marriage' :rolleyes: every marriage is mixed!

L.Jenkins

BlueLagoon1 wrote: »

This has got to be happening more and more in Ireland and I am wondering if anyone is experiencing this same hurtful reaction. Has anyone got any advice for this difficult time?

My Wife and I had a civil wedding ceremony, even at the objections of my own mother. It's your day and no one elses, whether your mother feels it will be a real marriage is besides the point, as it will be a real marriage in the eyes of the State.

Boom__Boom

BlueLagoon1 wrote: »

We recently told our parents we would not be having a church wedding but rather a humanist ceremony. Both mothers were totally unhappy - one has said she will not attend the ceremony and will not see our marriage as 'real'. The other is more concerned about what others will think and is acting as if we are being rebellious children.

BlueLagoon1 wrote: »

This has got to be happening more and more in Ireland and I am wondering if anyone is experiencing this same hurtful reaction. Has anyone got any advice for this difficult time?

I'd imagine you are right about it happening with lots of people - maybe point out that the percentage of non-Roman Catholic marriages in Ireland is pretty much 50% nowadays.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93249938&postcount=1

iguana

Help!!!! wrote: »

Maybe the OP would be better going for a civil wedding instead then. There are some great venues around the country that will do civil weddings

Pretty much the main difference that makes people go for a Humanist celebration, as far as I can tell, is that with a civil ceremony there are strict limits on when and where you can marry. It can only be performed in certain licensed venues. And it can only be Mon-Fri in most cases. A Humanist wedding has less restrictions, especially as most solemnisers work at weekends. It costs more but it allows couples to have a wedding ceremony that suits their wishes.

Cabaal

OP, I would say stand by your ground,

Went through this a few years ago with the wife's mother, mother said she wouldn't attend the wedding if it wasn't in a church. In the end we went ahead with church wedding, however despite me saying countless times before and even on the wedding day that the church bit was meaningless to me and all that matter was the state part she was happy...just odd.

In addition, before this my wife would go to mass with the family if she happened to be visiting (to keep the peace), since then thats completely stopped and we've made it clear no children we ever have will have water poured on them. End of. We'll be fighting another battle when that happens but there will be no backing down on this one.

In hindsight we should have stood our ground, yes potentially she may not have attended but it was our wedding and not hers. Some parents seem to think its there day though and this factors into why they want things a certain way, its weird.

For the people saying she'll attend, I wouldn't take this as 100%, she may not. But if she doesn't she would be the talk of the town for not attending her own childrens wedding so I'd make that clear to her. From my experience religious people don't want to be the talk of anything.

Of course there are exceptions and sometimes religion overrules all sanity and reason in people even when it comes to crunch time, I know of one particularly religious person who's son committed suicide and at the funeral the mother said that he'd burn in hell for killing himself. As you can imagine everyone found that suitably awkward at the time!

eviltwin

I agree with everyone else, stick to your guns. It's early days yet and people may need a bit of time to absorb it. I had a civil wedding, the first in my family to do so, and two people didn't attend but we didn't give them much notice. After they expressed regret and did go to subsequent civil weddings. It wasn't a nice experience for us at the time but I'm glad despite the drama that we were true to ourselves. I think if I'd had a religious wedding to make them happy I'd feel worse. I did baptise my eldest due to pressure and still regret that nearly twenty years later. Just keep planning and hopefully they will soon come round. Hope it all works out and congratulations.

veganrun

It's a shame the mothers feel that way but you can't really control how other people feel. I think you are doing the right thing by not getting married in the church if you are not practising. Too many people do that and seem to miss/ignore the real point of getting married there.

The Bishop Basher

veganrun wrote: »

I think you are doing the right thing by not getting married in the church if you are not practising. Too many people do that and seem to miss/ignore the real point of getting married there.

I would agree and while the shift away from RC church weddings is completely understandable given the archaic teachings and views of that organization, I can’t help but get the feeling that a lot of couples are opting for a humanist ceremony instead without actually giving any thought as to whether humanism is compatible with their beliefs or not.

In other words, it appears a lot of people are turning away from one organization because it understandably conflicts with their beliefs, to another organization that also conflicts with their beliefs but the latter is ok because it’s current and trendy and they haven’t had to actually think about it all that much.

I suppose for many it’s the lesser of 2 evils but then that doesn’t explain why the civil option is often ignored despite the fact that it has no stance on theism or atheism. Maybe it’s just not sexy or trendy enough.

This is all subjective of course and we can never really know anyone else’s reason for doing or saying anything. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with a theist or an agnostic opting for a humanist ceremony as long as they’re aware of the hypocrisy and aren’t busy moaning about others doing exactly the same in opting for a religious ceremony.

magicbastarder

one analogy i've used - not sure how much mileage you'd get from it - would be to ask her if your husband was jewish, how she would feel if you were telling her you were being pressured into a jewish ceremony. she'd probably have sympathy.
then point out that jews and christians have far more in common than atheists and christians. i.e. pressuring an atheist into a christian ceremony is more of a logical leap than pressuring a christian into a jewish ceremony.

i may not have explained that well.

lazygal

Swanner wrote: »

I would agree and while the shift away from RC church weddings is completely understandable given the archaic teachings and views of that organization, I can’t help but get the feeling that a lot of couples are opting for a humanist ceremony instead without actually giving any thought as to whether humanism is compatible with their beliefs or not.

In other words, it appears a lot of people are turning away from one organization because it understandably conflicts with their beliefs, to another organization that also conflicts with their beliefs but the latter is ok because it’s current and trendy and they haven’t had to actually think about it all that much.

I suppose for many it’s the lesser of 2 evils but then that doesn’t explain why the civil option is often ignored despite the fact that it has no stance on theism or atheism. Maybe it’s just not sexy or trendy enough.

This is all subjective of course and we can never really know anyone else’s reason for doing or saying anything. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with a theist or an agnostic opting for a humanist ceremony as long as they’re aware of the hypocrisy and aren’t busy moaning about others doing exactly the same in opting for a religious ceremony.

Humanist ceremonies are classed as secular, not religious.

How do you know people aren't ignoring the civil option? We had two
weddings, one civil, one humanist, for myriad reasons. It wasn't to be sexy or trendy or hypocritical. I think some people here like to have a go at humanism because they're lumping it into some religious category and want to poke a bit of fun at people they think just want whatever the latest trend is, while smugly pointing out that they think these people are being hypocrites like those who have a church wedding without thinking about it.

I don't really see how anyone could disagree with the humanist views on things, or why a couple who want a ceremony presided over by a humanist celebrant must be hypocritical and moaning about people having church weddings. As others have said, if you want a certain time and date and place, the civil ceremony might not be suitable. It was one reason why we had two weddings-in Dublin getting a date and time of our choosing was impossible for the office we got married in, we had to take whatever was available.

magicbastarder

Swanner wrote: »

In other words, it appears a lot of people are turning away from one organization because it understandably conflicts with their beliefs, to another organization that also conflicts with their beliefs

which of the facets of humanism would you expect might conflict with peoples' beliefs?

The Bishop Basher

magicbastarder wrote: »

which of the facets of humanism would you expect might conflict with peoples' beliefs?

Theism

looksee

How is theism a facet of humanism?

The Bishop Basher

looksee wrote: »

How is theism a facet of humanism?

It's not.

I had noticed the error but didn't correct it as i assumed it was obvious.

Atheism is a facet of humanism.

stillatit

I think just give them time and they will probably accept the idea.

I am 59 and both mothers were a bit shocked when we announced plans for a civil ceremony 30 years ago. They both got used to it and even forgave the fact that I was marrying a prod and she a catholic.

I have know many people who have had this experience, the Mammies came to accept it in the end.

Good luck.

magicbastarder

Swanner wrote: »

It's not.

I had noticed the error but didn't correct it as i assumed it was obvious.

Atheism is a facet of humanism.

humanism is generally atheist, not anti-theist, as far as i understood. so doesn't set out to prove catholicism wrong, for example.

Hotblack Desiato

Swanner wrote: »

Atheism is a facet of humanism.

Not necessarily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_humanism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_humanism

catbear

for fs sake, if whatever officiate is engaged carries out the ceremony to the couples liking then it's hardly any ism except themism!

One thing is certain with an RCC service, the church comes first, the couple second.

An Claidheamh

catbear wrote: »

for fs sake, if whatever officiate is engaged carries out the ceremony to the couples liking then it's hardly any ism except themism!

One thing is certain with an RCC service, the church comes first, the couple second.

How do you know? Why are you certain?

An Claidheamh

magicbastarder wrote: »

which of the facets of humanism would you expect might conflict with peoples' beliefs?

The part in humanist ceremonies where spirits are invited perhaps.....

Earlier on someone mentioned the "pagan stuff" and then complained about Rcc ceremonies.

Humanism has existed long before the last 10 years and it doesn't just exist for ex-private Catholic school hipsters to jump on to appear as "rebels".

The worst thing is the attention seeking atheist wannabes who think they're suddenly Humanists. They certainly shouldn't be having Humanist ceremonies and complaining about religious ones.

looksee

An Claidheamh wrote: »

The part in humanist ceremonies where spirits are invited perhaps.....

Earlier on someone mentioned the "pagan stuff" and then complained about Rcc ceremonies.

Humanism has existed long before the last 10 years and it doesn't just exist for ex-private Catholic school hipsters to jump on to appear as "rebels".

The worst thing is the attention seeking atheist wannabes who think they're suddenly Humanists. They certainly shouldn't be having Humanist ceremonies and complaining about religious ones.

How do you know? Why are you certain?

lazygal

An Claidheamh wrote: »

The part in humanist ceremonies where spirits are invited perhaps.....

Earlier on someone mentioned the "pagan stuff" and then complained about Rcc ceremonies.

Humanism has existed long before the last 10 years and it doesn't just exist for ex-private Catholic school hipsters to jump on to appear as "rebels".

The worst thing is the attention seeking atheist wannabes who think they're suddenly Humanists. They certainly shouldn't be having Humanist ceremonies and complaining about religious ones.

No spirits mentioned in our humanist wedding. And all schools are private in Ireland, perhaps you're confused about the difference between fee paying and private schools? What wedding ceremony isn't attention seeking? It's supposed to be drawing attention to the solemnising of a relationship.

Pherekydes

looksee wrote: »

How do you know? Why are you certain?

Because all atheists are just enraged teenagers going through a rebellious phase, don't you know?

lazygal

Pherekydes wrote: »

Because all atheists are just enraged teenagers going through a rebellious phase, don't you know?

Oh yeah, and our surly teenage attitude puts people off atheism and nearly pushes them towards religion.