Kids in Cafes

catbear

I don't have a problem with kids in a common space as long as they're not allowed to treat it as their romper room. Then it's no longer common space.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

But think about it...in general, (and I stress that) Americans are more respectful. Certainly the kids don't act the maggot anyway near as much in cafes etc. It just isn't tolerated.

I honestly think we have become a very disrespectful society.

I think a lot of parents in Ireland and the UK have tended to indulge children quite extensively. (1 in 4 Irish children is overweight or obese, and it's even higher in the U.K.) Ireland is already on course to become the fattest country in Europe.

If we're indulging them in a dietary way with snacks and crap food, the same standards are probably slipping around manners.

Ideas like delayed gratification seem to be more common in France & Germany, where snacking is discouraged, and kids seem to have less of a role in choosing meals. You do tend to see a lot of kids in cafes and restaurants in France and other parts of Northern Europe, but there seems to be a big difference in their behaviour. (In fairness, I think Irish kids were traditionally very similar, ours is a somewhat recent phenomenon)

Yellow pack crisps

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Says someone who knows nothing about Aspergers...

My son with autism can have bad behaviour because he's a child and they ALL behave in ways they shouldn't at some point. He also can have challenging behaviours due to his Autism which can cause sensory overload. He doesn't smash his own head off a wall because he's a brat.

I personally don't blame my sons spectrum disorder on his behaviour. It's a reason, not an excuse. It's generally people who haven't got a clue what they are talking about that throw the bad parenting line about.

I hope you never have to walk the same mile and have someone call you a bad parent, when you know you do everything you possibly can and then some.

I think you're misunderstanding the point I'm making, and needlessly victimising yourself here. Nobody called you a bad parent. I have no idea whether you're a good parent or not, and to be honest it's not important.

The only point I was making is that in my experience, legitimate behavioural disorders get blamed for each negative behaviour, just because a child has a behavioural disorder. Others have mentioned it to me in relation to their experiences with Aspergers, I can only vouch for my experience with ADHD.

Yellow pack crisps wrote: »

Err yes it can explain a lot actually.

Of course it can explain 'a lot'. But every instance of misbehaviour should not be blamed on a disorder.

I'm a parent and discipline my child if he is being unruly and if we go to restaurants or cafes he knows to be good and respectful. The thing is i socialise in cafes and restaurants quite a bit with him and it's very rare I see such bad behaviour from children most parents I see are up like a light to make sure their kids are behaving. This thread and some people are near hysterical in their condemnation of parents and children as a whole based on what I would think are isolated instances bearing in mind I work in the sector and see first hand how children and adults are.

In most cases I see kids are generally more polite and mannerly than a lot of adults and to booth better house trained!!!!!!!

Yellow pack crisps

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Says someone who knows nothing about Aspergers...

My son with autism can have bad behaviour because he's a child and they ALL behave in ways they shouldn't at some point. He also can have challenging behaviours due to his Autism which can cause sensory overload. He doesn't smash his own head off a wall because he's a brat.

I personally don't blame my sons spectrum disorder on his behaviour. It's a reason, not an excuse. It's generally people who haven't got a clue what they are talking about that throw the bad parenting line about.

I hope you never have to walk the same mile and have someone call you a bad parent, when you know you do everything you possibly can and then some.

I think you're misunderstanding the point I'm making, and needlessly victimising yourself here. Nobody called you a bad parent. I have no idea whether you're a good parent or not, and to be honest it's not important.

The only point I was making is that in my experience, legitimate behavioural disorders get blamed for each negative behaviour, just because a child has a behavioural disorder. Others have mentioned it to me in relation to their experiences with Aspergers, I can only vouch for my experience with ADHD.

Yellow pack crisps wrote: »

Err yes it can explain a lot actually.

Of course it can explain 'a lot'. But every instance of misbehaviour should not be blamed on a disorder.

I'm a parent and discipline my child if he is being unruly and if we go to restaurants or cafes he knows to be good and respectful. The thing is i socialise in cafes and restaurants quite a bit with him and it's very rare I see such bad behaviour from children most parents I see are up like a light to make sure their kids are behaving. This thread and some people are near hysterical in their condemnation of parents and children as a whole based on what I would think are isolated instances bearing in mind I work in the sector and see first hand how children and adults are.

In most cases I see kids are generally more polite and mannerly than a lot of adults and to booth better house trained!!!!!!!

Keane2baMused

That's just it.

My child in general is very well behaved when out. As well behaved and mannerly as you can expect from a young child. There are the odd hiccups, but if they had all the answers so young there would be no growth or maturing! I correct him when needs be and if he misbehaves there are consequences. What I won't do is apologise for something beyond his or my control. I learned to stop doing that some time ago. When you physically do the best you can what more can people expect?

Tolerance and understanding works both ways. Just like I understand some people don't like children and don't want to be bothered by them, I would expect those same people to be mindful of family time and that children are by nature busy little beings and not to expect them to do a disappearing act from whatever establishment they enter.

Rarely do I see children that are purely badly behaved or rude. I regularly encounter adults who are extremely rude however and it would nearly kill them to say please, thank you or excuse me.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Keane2baMused wrote: »

What I won't do is apologise for something beyond his or my control. I learned to stop doing that some time ago..

What sort of thing do you mean? Can you give an example?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I have a little cousin who's got autism and it affects her a lot. She has no words, she can't talk and when she's sad or angry or stressed out or happy, she screams. It's literally the only way she has of expressing herself, except for punching you.

I guess if a child with a similar condition was out and about, and got a little bit upset and started to scream - that's not really in anybodies control. They can't tell you what's wrong, or what's happening, or what you need to do to make them better or their situation better.

Is that an example of a situation that can't be controlled?

Smondie

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I have a little cousin who's got autism and it affects her a lot. She has no words, she can't talk and when she's sad or angry or stressed out or happy, she screams. It's literally the only way she has of expressing herself, except for punching you.

I guess if a child with a similar condition was out and about, and got a little bit upset and started to scream - that's not really in anybodies control. They can't tell you what's wrong, or what's happening, or what you need to do to make them better or their situation better.

Is that an example of a situation that can't be controlled?

Many not verbal children are taught to communicate using PECS and other strategies ratheir than just screaming.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Smondie wrote: »

Many not verbal children are taught to communicate using PECS and other strategies ratheir than just screaming.

You know what though? Sometimes sh1t happens. I was taught to have polite conversations, not to shout and not to use profanities. When I get tired or angry or upset, I cry and shout and curse like a sailor.

I have no idea how it feels to be stressed out because there's music playing in a the supermarket or because someone I didn't know patted my head. If they're about to have a meltdown - and the triggers can't be controlled - do you really expect the child to be calm enough to try communicate using PECS?

Keane2baMused

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I have a little cousin who's got autism and it affects her a lot. She has no words, she can't talk and when she's sad or angry or stressed out or happy, she screams. It's literally the only way she has of expressing herself, except for punching you.

I guess if a child with a similar condition was out and about, and got a little bit upset and started to scream - that's not really in anybodies control. They can't tell you what's wrong, or what's happening, or what you need to do to make them better or their situation better.

Is that an example of a situation that can't be controlled?

Exactly that.

When you have communication difficulties it's not always as easy as 'just tell them off'.

Imagine knowing exactly what you want or need but being unable to say the words and nobody can figure out the problem, the frustration of that alone is incredible. In the beginning I would profusely apologise to the people staring at me (like I was a monster) if my child went into a meltdown in a supermarket for example. Then you just realise you are apologising for something you can't predict, or control. The only control you have is how you react to the situation and those around you and by apologising it's an admission of wrong doing.

I've lost track of how many times I ended up in tears carrying my child out of places, with people just staring and tutting.

I will never forget the day an elderly lady came up to me outside tesco when my son was kicking off during a meltdown and I was waiting for the onslaught. She stopped, looked at me and said you're a great mother and person, keep your head high and chin up and ignore everyone else.

Since then I have done exactly that and life is much less stressful.

Keane2baMused

Smondie wrote: »

Many not verbal children are taught to communicate using PECS and other strategies ratheir than just screaming.

PECS is a communication tool. It is not the answer to sensory overload.

Smondie

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Smondie wrote: »

Many not verbal children are taught to communicate using PECS and other strategies ratheir than just screaming.

PECS is a communication tool. It is not the answer to sensory overload.

Yes I know. The issue the other poster raised was a communication issue.

What's the solution for sensory overload?.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I'll be the first to admit I have a very low tolerance for kids being bold but if there's a parent trying, and the child is having none of it, I'm nowhere near as irritated. If there's a child screaming the place down and mam or dad are dealing with it (even unsuccessfully) it doesn't bother me as much. If a child is screaming the place down and the parents are encouraging it, or ignoring it, then I'll be going mad

Smondie

Keane2baMused wrote: »

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I have a little cousin who's got autism and it affects her a lot. She has no words, she can't talk and when she's sad or angry or stressed out or happy, she screams. It's literally the only way she has of expressing herself, except for punching you.

I guess if a child with a similar condition was out and about, and got a little bit upset and started to scream - that's not really in anybodies control. They can't tell you what's wrong, or what's happening, or what you need to do to make them better or their situation better.

Is that an example of a situation that can't be controlled?

Exactly that.

When you have communication difficulties it's not always as easy as 'just tell them off'.

Imagine knowing exactly what you want or need but being unable to say the words and nobody can figure out the problem, the frustration of that alone is incredible. In the beginning I would profusely apologise to the people staring at me (like I was a monster) if my child went into a meltdown in a supermarket for example. Then you just realise you are apologising for something you can't predict, or control. The only control you have is how you react to the situation and those around you and by apologising it's an admission of wrong doing.

I've lost track of how many times I ended up in tears carrying my child out of places, with people just staring and tutting.

I will never forget the day an elderly lady came up to me outside tesco when my son was kicking off during a meltdown and I was waiting for the onslaught. She stopped, looked at me and said you're a great mother and person, keep your head high and chin up and ignore everyone else.

Since then I have done exactly that and life is much less stressful.

Well a lot of that is the parent not understanding the needs of thier child and bringing them to a supermarket with noisy music before they are ready for it.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Smondie wrote: »

Well a lot of that is the parent not understanding the needs of thier child and bringing them to a supermarket with noisy music before they are ready for it.

You cant wrap an autistic child up in cotton wool their entire lives. They're very intelligent children and learn very quickly, from my limited understanding of the disorder. They are children. They need to be taught how to deal with situations they don't like and how to learn to cope in situations.

How are they to get used to being out and about, if the parents shouldn't take them where there's triggers??

Elliott S

mohawk wrote: »

Having lunch earlier and there was two men sitting at a two person table while the 10ish old was sitting by himself at a four person table playing computer games on what sounded like full volume.
Some people parents or not just have no consideration for others. I always make my fella use headphones or keep volume very low when he plays games in a cafe. I would never let him take a table to himself especially at peak lunch time when others want a table.

Hate when people play films to entertain their kids on public transport and have it on full blast. There is nothing worse than hearing the audio of a film without being able to see the visual, especially if it's a children's film. Such a cacophony. :mad: It's even worse when more than one film per carriage is being played without headphones.

steddyeddy

There's some amount of hyperbole in this thread. I dislike when kids are running around in coffee shops or screaming.

This shouldn't need explaining but hating kids running up and down does not mean I hate all parents, don't understand that parents or kids might have a lot on their plate or hate special needs kids. Most kids haven't got special needs or autism and there is some parents who let their kids run amok.

Parents have a lot on their plate but so does everyone. My mother worked hard and after shopping liked to go into a small cafe for a break. Once or twice she complained about kids running up and down the cafe or screaming. Surely people who go to cafes for peace deserve that too.

Smondie

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Smondie wrote: »

Well a lot of that is the parent not understanding the needs of thier child and bringing them to a supermarket with noisy music before they are ready for it.

You cant wrap an autistic child up in cotton wool their entire lives. They're very intelligent children and learn very quickly, from my limited understanding of the disorder. They are children. They need to be taught how to deal with situations they don't like and how to learn to cope in situations.

How are they to get used to being out and about, if the parents shouldn't take them where there's triggers??

Nope that's not what I said. It's all about working with your child and what they are comfortable with.

chocksaway

This thread can be summed up as follows

Kids are like farts. Your own are grand. Everyone elses stink

Smondie

Smondie wrote: »

Well a lot of that is the parent not understanding the needs of thier child and bringing them to a supermarket with noisy music before they are ready for it.

That's not fair, my godson is autistic, he lives in the countryside with my friend, his mother, and her other two kids. They are 5, 7 & 9.
Her husband is gone, leaving her to bring them up alone.
Now, what do you suggest she does when she needs to go anywhere?

Any of those kids have appointments anywhere, then she has to bring all 3. If she needs milk from the shop, then she needs to bring all 3.

It's not her choice to out him in situations that may cause him some stress, she is his mother, but sometimes it's unavoidable.

Keane2baMused

Smondie wrote: »

Well a lot of that is the parent not understanding the needs of thier child and bringing them to a supermarket with noisy music before they are ready for it.

What exactly do you know about autism and sensory issues?

"Noisy music" doesn't effect all children with autism.

Smondie

bubblypop wrote: »

Smondie wrote: »

Well a lot of that is the parent not understanding the needs of thier child and bringing them to a supermarket with noisy music before they are ready for it.

That's not fair, my godson is autistic, he lives in the countryside with my friend, his mother, and her other two kids. They are 5, 7 & 9.
Her husband is gone, leaving her to bring them up alone.
Now, what do you suggest she does when she needs to go anywhere?

Any of those kids have appointments anywhere, then she has to bring all 3. If she needs milk from the shop, then she needs to bring all 3.

It's not her choice to out him in situations that may cause him some stress, she is his mother, but sometimes it's unavoidable.

why wouldn't a 9 year old be able to run in to a shop for a carton of milk if the mother drove to the shop? It is not necessary for a child to be in a supermarket with online ordering etc. Even children without additional needs aren't too fond of spending an hour or so in a supermarket, i'm not too fond of it myself.

Why inflict it on a child who finds it completely overwhelming?

Keane2baMused

Smondie wrote: »

Yes I know. The issue the other poster raised was a communication issue.

What's the solution for sensory overload?.

De-sensitisation.

My son is much more able to cope with the world and lights and noises now because of that.

The solution is not avoidance.

Smondie

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Smondie wrote: »

Well a lot of that is the parent not understanding the needs of thier child and bringing them to a supermarket with noisy music before they are ready for it.

What exactly do you know about autism and sensory issues?

"Noisy music" doesn't effect all children with autism.

Noisy music in the supermarket was The example given by another poster. Ask them?

Keane2baMused

Smondie wrote: »

why wouldn't a 9 year old be able to run in to a shop for a carton of milk if the mother drove to the shop? It is not necessary for a child to be in a supermarket with online ordering etc. Even children without additional needs aren't too fond of spending an hour or so in a supermarket, i'm not too fond of it myself.

Why inflict it on a child who finds it completely overwhelming?

It's not inflicting if the child wants to do it. A child with autism having a meltdown is not necessarily having one because they don't want to be there or because they're not enjoying it, often it's actually the other way around.

If you don't bring a child out into the world with noise and people and lights they will never be able to adjust and be included in society.

Sometimes you have to wade through the sh1t to get your freedom.

Smondie

Smondie wrote: »

why wouldn't a 9 year old be able to run in to a shop for a carton of milk if the mother drove to the shop? It is not necessary for a child to be in a supermarket with online ordering etc. Even children without additional needs aren't too fond of spending an hour or so in a supermarket, i'm not too fond of it myself.

Why inflict it on a child who finds it completely overwhelming?

Firstly, lidl or Aldi don't deliver neither can you order online. And if you live alone with 3 kids, then that's where she does her shopping.
It's not great having to bring her autistic son to the doctor's waiting room when one of her other kids are sick.
Or to the dentist's or to karate practise, or to football practice, or to dancing lessons, etc etc

If you want to stay in her house, miles away from anywhere, and mind her autistic son, so he doesn't need to go those places, I'm sure she would be delighted.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Because I have no experience of autism and the child I know with autism hates noisey music. I don't know enough about it to give different examples

Keane2baMused

Smondie wrote: »

Noisy music in the supermarket was The example given by another poster. Ask them?

That's an example of what can effect a child with autism and Lexie is not incorrect in saying so.

The fact is there are so many variables you could not possibly predict.

My son also has OCD and if some things don't happen in a sequence that he expects (and we may not always know what that sequence is) it can set off a chain of events.

In general he has a set routine so he knows what to expect and he can cope better. However life doesn't always work like that and sometimes things have to be different, they all have to learn that and learn to cope with the change as best they can.

Ave Sodalis

My local Supervalu has a "quiet hour" where kids with autism are allowed in with very few shoppers etc. Its fantastic

Dubl07

Parental responsibility seems to have gone out the window.

If your child has autism, bring them to the supermarket or restaurant for ten minutes at a time and extend that comfort zone rather than causing distress to both child and customers. You can use click and collect/a babysitter/shop online.
If your child is an obnoxious toerag who gets a raging sugar-high in the supermarket from chowing down on the biscuits, berries and doughnuts you haven't yet paid for, GO HOME. If your child has a tantrum in the comics aisle due to lack of reading material, I'll sympathise with them but glare at you. If your child is has a nappy incident or a fright and cries in the supermarket as a result, you have my sympathy and I'll pass the tissues and hold your trolley while you deal with the issue.
If your child is bouncy and flouncy in a restaurant but remains in the seat/booth which you have cunningly managed to block them into so that seat is as far as they can go without permission, lots of gooey-eyed admiration. If your child screams and mashes their face into the floor or treats the restaurant as a slalom track, I'll take pay the waiters to feed him (Ayrton) Senna. If your child throws food or pours drinks anywhere into their gob, I will tell the waiters that it's you or us.