Irish boxer failed drug test: Drugs in Irish Sport to now be questioned?

The problem with Russia is that the cheating appears to be backed by officialdom.

That takes it out of the "but what about this athlete from the west or that". It's akin to the East Germans in the 70s. It's a different level entirely. State sponsored cheating is a real throwback to a bygone age when ridiculous concepts like national pride trumped the lives and health of athletes. That would not be tolerated in any democracy. There is simply no way that that could happen in countries like Ireland or the UK given basic civil liberties like freedom of the press.

I don't think the Olympics are any more rife with doping than any other sport, in fact I suspect athletes are tested more than most. See all the golf withdrawals citing Zika virus, many have wondered whether the Olympics drug testing is the real deterrent.

As for the Irish boxer, recreational drugs are not next or near PEDs. It's stupid...but it's not cheating fellow athletes, spectators etc.

velo.2010

Russia's Olympic committee chief reckons Russia 'will have the cleanest team' at the Olympics.

Sad thing is...He's probably right!

liam7831

Andalucia wrote: »

Jimmy Magee last week made the laughable claim that he would guarantee the Irish team was 100% clean- he also reckoned Michelle Smith was great and hadn't doped

its the small fish that get caught for recretional drugs - they can't catch the big fish who are too smart to answer the doorbell or have the phone turned to silent when the tester calls

in my mind recreational drugs are worse than performing enhancing - I mean if your going to fail a test, at least do so whilst making all effort to win - doubtful if his recreational drug can be considered performing enhancing

Ah shur Jimmy still thinks he is in L.A. in 84

walshb

Andalucia wrote: »

Jimmy Magee last week made the laughable claim that he would guarantee the Irish team was 100% clean- he also reckoned Michelle Smith was great and hadn't doped

its the small fish that get caught for recretional drugs - they can't catch the big fish who are too smart to answer the doorbell or have the phone turned to silent when the tester calls

in my mind recreational drugs are worse than performing enhancing - I mean if your going to fail a test, at least do so whilst making all effort to win - doubtful if his recreational drug can be considered performing enhancing

Would you be hugely surprised if our 77 were honest and clean? I wouldn't be. O'Reilly excluded until we hear what exact drug he took.

Andalucia

walshb wrote: »

Would you be hugely surprised if our 77 were honest and clean? I wouldn't be. O'Reilly excluded until we hear what exact drug he took.

Yes I would be very surprised ignoring O'Reilly if the remainder were fully clean - happy to be a sceptic in this regard, given history, irrespective of the green jersey- there are a couple I would have serious doubts about whether they are playing within the rules, but given the rules are subjective, we'll never really know

groovyg

ronnie085 wrote: »

Nowhere near the worst, a couple of athletes over the last ten years, 1 swimmer in 20 years and a horse, no need for exaggerations, especially the level of testing top athletes go through, check Rob Heffernans twitter, 28 out of comp tests so far this year

Maybe the reason Rob is getting tested so much is because he has been training with Pacquillo Fernandez Spanish race walker who has served a ban.

Andalucia

how badly has this been handled by the IABA and OCI - two shambolic organisations in their media dealings


Paddy Barnes on twitter asking who it was when story broke

then Michael O'Reilly tweeting he'll fight on the 12th August - must have been smoking a lot of stuff!

walshb

Andalucia wrote: »

how badly has this been handled by the IABA and OCI - two shambolic organisations in their media dealings


Paddy Barnes on twitter asking who it was when story broke

then Michael O'Reilly tweeting he'll fight on the 12th August - must have been smoking a lot of stuff!

What are IABA and OCI to do do about the world of social media, where posting pictures of your dinner is seen as news? They can't police that nonsense.

average_runner

groovyg wrote: »

Maybe the reason Rob is getting tested so much is because he has been training with Pacquillo Fernandez Spanish race walker who has served a ban.

He is not training with him and has nothing to do with Rob coaching staff. He is a friend though and no harm in that.

All top athletes are tested loads

Andalucia

walshb wrote: »

What are IABA and OCI to do do about the world of social media, where posting pictures of your dinner is seen as news? They can't police that nonsense.

they should be managing the story - no statements yet- instead its now a circus - they were obviously told who it was, probably before today - should have told O'Reilly to make sure he wasn't feeding the trolls via social media, instead it looks like Shane Ross leaked the story and has caught them on the hop

he's 22, positive test on eve of Olympics - he's going to be thrown under the bus - I feel sorry for the guy now on a personal level if its true its recreational drug - bit stupid but that's life

mansize

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem with Russia is that the cheating appears to be backed by officialdom.

That takes it out of the "but what about this athlete from the west or that". It's akin to the East Germans in the 70s. It's a different level entirely. State sponsored cheating is a real throwback to a bygone age when ridiculous concepts like national pride trumped the lives and health of athletes. That would not be tolerated in any democracy. There is simply no way that that could happen in countries like Ireland or the UK given basic civil liberties like freedom of the press.

I don't think the Olympics are any more rife with doping than any other sport, in fact I suspect athletes are tested more than most. See all the golf withdrawals citing Zika virus, many have wondered whether the Olympics drug testing is the real deterrent.

As for the Irish boxer, recreational drugs are not next or near PEDs. It's stupid...but it's not cheating fellow athletes, spectators etc.

Officialdom, like Seb Coe, who clung onto his job by his fingernails post Oregan scandal. British Cycling who paid for Lizzie's lawyers...

To think it's just Russia is naive, in Ireland we just blame the horses...

Deserves what he gets if it's all true.

Hopefully it doesn't hamper anyone else's preparation.

They should get him home asap

Darkest Horse

I have to say, despite the disappointing news I'm impressed with the lack of naivety and self-aggrandisement on this thread in relation to drug use in sport and Irish sport. Most seem to understand that this is a fact of life in world class professional sport and is even an issue in recreational amateur sport if some of my MAMIL friends are to be believed. While feeling for the Irish athlete involved, it's a wake up call that we are not necessarily "the good guys" of world sport and have the propensity to take such risks in pursuit of success. To listen to pundits like Ger Gilroy on Newstalk speak about this topic makes me want to put my fingers down my throat and regurgitate last night's dinner. The naivety, the willingness to believe we would never do such a thing, despite our poor record of doping and winning, is very reflective of the United States' "good guys vs bad guys" viewpoint someone mentioned a few posts back. I feel for this boxer because of these general attitudes he risks being branded something close to evil by people who have no appreciation of the pressures of international sport and no grasp of what performance enhancing drugs are and what they do. I don't want to branch off into a tangential discussion but it's a more complicated issue than what is or is not on the sacred banned list. Caffeine now isn't because people love coffee and drink it daily. It still enhances performance. Testosterone is on the banned list - it still enhances performance. Leaving the magnitude of performance enhancing effects aside, what is the difference? My basic point is people should not be so quick to judge this young man when they don't understand the first thing about drugs. For what it's worth, I can't understand why it offends and surprises people in equal measure. These are athletes. They want to win. Short of doing a Tonya Harding on it, they will do most things in their power to win. I can live with that myself be they Russian, British, Irish, American, Chinese. If Usain Bolt tested positive in the morning, I'd shrug my shoulders and get on with my life. No real opinion on the matter. But could you just imagine the media sh*t storm? It's more about them and selling papers than it is about the athletes.

Sorry for the meandering post.

The_Kew_Tour

Glad he was caught now before he possibly won a medal and would been far worse.

Deserves everything he gets, no excuses even if recreational

If recreational drugs are so universally non performance-enhancing, why ban them?

I think it's a little naive to believe that nature (or even pharmaceutical science) has such neat categories as 'performance enhancing' and 'non performance enhancing'

I'm sure there are plenty of painkillers that are non PEDs, but they can still enhance performance in showjumpers, for example, as we know quite well on this green island.

mansize

mansize wrote: »

Officialdom, like Seb Coe, who clung onto his job by his fingernails post Oregan scandal. British Cycling who paid for Lizzie's lawyers...

To think it's just Russia is naive, in Ireland we just blame the horses...

Um...to fling out some line about Seb Coe and fingernails and something about British cycling does not mean the accusations about Russia are no worse than that facing other countries.

Do you think there is state sponsored doping in Britain? If so, what is the evidence?

Alf Veedersane

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

If recreational drugs are so universally non performance-enhancing, why ban them?

I think it's a little naive to believe that nature (or even pharmaceutical science) has such neat categories as 'performance enhancing' and 'non performance enhancing'

I'm sure there are plenty of painkillers that are non PEDs, but they can still enhance performance in showjumpers, for example, as we know quite well on this green island.

There are several criteria for including drugs on the prohibited list, one of which is that the use of the substance represents an actual or potential risk to the athlete's health.

Chivito550

I adore the Olympics, but a horrible side effect is having to listen to morons who know nothing about these sports voice their opinions. From the whole "it's just one big drug fest, they are all at it" (usually coming from soccer fans lol, the dirtiest sport of all) to the whole "they are wasting tax payers funding Joe". Just read a comment on RTE by some unfortunate soul who thinks the whole Irish boxing team should be banned off the back of O'Reilly's positive. So glad I'll be out there so I can be far removed from all these idiots.

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

I adore the Olympics, but a horrible side effect is having to listen to morons who know nothing about these sports voice their opinions. From the whole "it's just one big drug fest, they are all at it" (usually coming from soccer fans lol, the dirtiest sport of all) to the whole "they are wasting tax payers funding Joe". Just read a comment on RTE by some unfortunate soul who thinks the whole Irish boxing team should be banned off the back of O'Reilly's positive. So glad I'll be out there so I can be far removed from all these idiots.

And no matter how much you try and educate these types it's over their heads. The attitude that they are all at it is one of the most ignorant and stupid attitudes in society today.

walshb

walshb wrote: »

The attitude that they are all at it is one of the most ignorant and stupid attitudes in society today.

Nobody said they're all at it.

To presume that all the Irish Olympic team is 'at it' is as bafflingly stupid as media comments & assumptions that NONE of the Irish are at it, which is the whole point of the thread.

You're grumbling about something that nobody here has said, and ignoring the idiocy that is being spouted in mainstream media

Chivito550

Chivito550 wrote: »

I adore the Olympics, but a horrible side effect is having to listen to morons who know nothing about these sports voice their opinions. From the whole "it's just one big drug fest, they are all at it" (usually coming from soccer fans lol, the dirtiest sport of all) to the whole "they are wasting tax payers funding Joe". Just read a comment on RTE by some unfortunate soul who thinks the whole Irish boxing team should be banned off the back of O'Reilly's positive. So glad I'll be out there so I can be far removed from all these idiots.

The other thing that annoys me is the reduction to medals. Everything is weighed up in terms of medals by the vast majority. If athletes PB, which for me is the most you can hope or expect, and we come home without medals, expect at least a few callers to Joe moaning about the waste of money that could be spent on hospital beds.

Pherekydes

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Nobody said they're all at it.

To presume that all the Irish Olympic team is 'at it' is as bafflingly stupid as media comments & assumptions that NONE of the Irish are at it, which is the whole point of the thread.

You're grumbling about something that nobody here has said, and ignoring the idiocy that is being spouted in mainstream media

Thread title: Irish boxer failed drug test: Drugs in Irish Sport to now be questioned?

walshb

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Nobody said they're all at it.

To presume that all the Irish Olympic team is 'at it' is as bafflingly stupid as media comments & assumptions that NONE of the Irish are at it, which is the whole point of the thread.

You're grumbling about something that nobody here has said, and ignoring the idiocy that is being spouted in mainstream media

Some people do have this ignorant lazy ass stupid view.

ronnie085

ronnie085 wrote: »

Nowhere near the worst, a couple of athletes over the last ten years, 1 swimmer in 20 years and a horse, no need for exaggerations

It wasn't just one horse, it was two horses, one in 2004 and one in 2008, for remarkably similar reasons (use of painkillers, which when applied to the shins of horses, effectively allows them to achieve greater height over a fence).

I've been involved with horses for years and although there are plenty of apologists for Lynch & O'Connor, there are plenty of us who believe they are cheats.

You're also ignoring Cathal Lombard (once the fastest white man on the planet). Remember him? He admitted to using EPO in 2004 because he wanted to 'level the playing field', and was in the Olympics training camp when he was pulled, right before the Olympics, just like Michael O'Reilly.

Martin Fagan failed a blood test trying to qualify for London in 2012.

Michelle Smith de Bruin is probably the most stupid case, she's certainly not an isolated one.

I know from my own sport, equestrianism, there is plenty of skepticism, and probably deservedly so.

Pherekydes wrote: »

Thread title: Irish boxer failed drug test: Drugs in Irish Sport to now be questioned?

Yes, that's what I wrote, meaning: we should engage with this question of Irish drug use, instead of assuming (or, more bafflingly, 'guaranteeing') that Irish atheletes are clean.

Read the OP again if you think I was saying something else.

Our record is not clean, and we should not assume that Irish sport is clean.

walshb

Wow, well done on the handful of examples of issues with doping in Irish sport. We're not completely clean, but we're very far from dirty. And farther I would think than many other countries. Irish athletes IMO are a genuine bunch. It's the kind of people we are. Just something honest about us.

walshb

walshb wrote: »

Wow, well done on the handful of examples of issues with doping in Irish sport. We're not completely clean, but we're very far from dirty. And farther I would think than many other countries.

Nice job on completely missing the point.

walshb

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Nice job on completely missing the point.

I missed no point. You said nothing of note.

walshb

walshb wrote: »

I missed no point. You said nothing of note.

The whole point of the thread is beyond you. Ah here, go back to your bizarre defence of Michelle de Bruin, not wasting my time.

RedemptionZ

walshb wrote: »

Some people do have this ignorant lazy ass stupid view.

I don't think everyone is on something, were it to come out that they were however I wouldn't be surprised. Nor would I really blame them. I personally feel sympathy for people caught. Although recreational drugs are pure stupidity. It's a lazy view in that it's generalising all sportspeople into one group but its possible for someone to be exposed to a high level of a certain sport and be aware widespread doping yet see any accusations thrown out as nonsense and assume that this is the case for all other 'clean sports'. This is the reputation that the olympics has brought upon itself and its up to them to deal with it.

Also no idea how you're so confident we're cleaner than other countries?

Alf Veedersane

Sport isn't clean anywhere.

There will always be people that take drugs.

But they are individuals and theirs are individual cases, which is very different to state-sponsored doping.

In those individual cases, some take drugs to compete, others take them to survive. It happens and will always happen. Those going it alone will be caught by testers more and more as tests are developed for a broader range of drygs.

For those in more organised drug programmes, they have a better chance of avoiding detection.

Pherekydes

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

You're also ignoring Cathal Lombard (once the fastest white man on the planet). Remember him? He admitted to using EPO in 2004 because he wanted to 'level the playing field', and was in the Olympics training camp when he was pulled, right before the Olympics, just like Michael O'Reilly.

Cathal Lombard was never remotely the fastest white man on the planet. I'd go so far as to say I was easily faster, and I wasn't even the fastest man in my own club. But that's all ancient history.

Yes, that's what I wrote, meaning: we should engage with this question of Irish drug use, instead of assuming (or, more bafflingly, 'guaranteeing') that Irish atheletes are clean.

A guy had a spliff (perhaps) and everyone wants to drag up every old case to illustrate a point, what exactly, I don't know. Cathal Lombard and this case are not linked. de Bruin's case and this case are not linked. There is no giant state-sponsored drug conspiracy in Irish sport. That is not to say we can guarantee the Irish team is clean. But you can't prove 'clean' anyway, so we should ignore the silly statements from the likes of Jimmy Magee, just as we should ignore the silly statements about Irish boxing's legacy being in tatters, or morale in the Irish team being destroyed, or withdrawing the team. Did you ever hear the like?

walshb

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The whole point of the thread is beyond you. Ah here, go back to your bizarre defence of Michelle de Bruin, not wasting my time.

The thread was started by you. You have said nothing of note. Irish sports is not 100 percent clean. No country can say this. Going by statistics and what we know, we aren't doing too bad. We have many good and honest and clean athletes.

As for Michelle. Old news. Get over it.. She was done for tampering. Tested 7-8 times in Atlanta. Officially/legally she was clean at those games.

walshb

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Also no idea how you're so confident we're cleaner than other countries?

Where did I say I was so confident?? It's more a feeling I have.

techdiver

Well if it wasn't a PED and it was just a recreational drug I wouldn't class him as a cheat, in the same vein as the Russians. He was stupid, but not a cheat.

On another point I don't see why recreational drugs that have no performance enhancement properties are tested for anyway. He is an amateur guy that will be vilified for smoking a joint FFS!

RedemptionZ

walshb wrote: »

Where did I say I was so confident?? It's more a feeling I have.

Fair enough, I'd probably share that feeling tbh. If we were better funded and more organised though I think we'd be as bad as anyone, don't think it's a case of our morals are too strong.

Alf Veedersane

techdiver wrote: »

Well if it wasn't a PED and it was just a recreational drug I wouldn't class him as a cheat, in the same vein as the Russians. He was stupid, but not a cheat.

On another point I don't see why recreational drugs that have no performance enhancement properties are tested for anyway. He is an amateur guy that will be vilified for smoking a joint FFS!

Because the WADA Code has several criteria for putting drugs on the prohibited list, one of which is that the use of the substance represents an actual or potential risk to the athlete's health.

techdiver

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Because the WADA Code has several criteria for putting drugs on the prohibited list, one of which is that the use of the substance represents an actual or potential risk to the athlete's health.

I still think it's BS. You are tainted in the same way as a cheat for not cheating!

Why is alcohol not banned so? It is much more harmful than some items on the banned list that have no PED qualities.

walshb

techdiver wrote: »

I still think it's BS. You are tainted in the same way as a cheat for not cheating!

.

I think people with half a brain should be able distinguish between a cheat and someone who is reckless and silly. But unfortunately you will have people lumping MOR in the same category as Ben Johnson. Moronic!

techdiver

walshb wrote: »

I think people with half a brain should be able distinguish between a cheat and someone who is reckless and silly. But unfortunately you will have people lumping MOR in the same category as Ben Johnson. Moronic!

That's my point. There will be an asterisk beside his name with a ban, whilst Gatlin and Gay will compete at the Olympics.

Once again, I'm not saying he wasn't dumb for what he did, but missing an Olympics for something like this is ridiculous,especially for a first offence.

irishgeo

techdiver wrote: »

I still think it's BS. You are tainted in the same way as a cheat for not cheating!

Why is alcohol not banned so? It is much more harmful than some items on the banned list that have no PED qualities.

Alcohol is listed as banned substance in shooting events.

Alf Veedersane

techdiver wrote: »

I still think it's BS. You are tainted in the same way as a cheat for not cheating!

Why is alcohol not banned so? It is much more harmful than some items on the banned list that have no PED qualities.

Sports alcohol is prohibited in-competition:

• Air Sports (FAI)
• Archery (WA)
• Automobile (FIA)
• Powerboating (UIM)

techdiver

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Sports alcohol is prohibited in-competition:

• Air Sports (FAI)
• Archery (WA)
• Automobile (FIA)
• Powerboating (UIM)

In fairness, that's just common sense. Doesn't address my main point.

techdiver

techdiver wrote: »

Well if it wasn't a PED and it was just a recreational drug I wouldn't class him as a cheat, in the same vein as the Russians. He was stupid, but not a cheat.

On another point I don't see why recreational drugs that have no performance enhancement properties are tested for anyway. He is an amateur guy that will be vilified for smoking a joint FFS!

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Because the WADA Code has several criteria for putting drugs on the prohibited list, one of which is that the use of the substance represents an actual or potential risk to the athlete's health.

Lets just clear something up here.

Maybe it will turn out that Michael O'Reilly simply smoked marijuana. I don't know. But it has to be said that there is no clear division between recreational drugs and PEDs.

Some recreational drugs are stimulants and are not classified as PEDs.

Some stimulants are not even banned.

Benzylpiperazine is banned by WADA, but it is considered a recreational drug. It may be used recreationally, but its dompaminergic reactions result in hyperactivity. Its effects are apparently similar to amphetamine.

So there you have an innocent-sounding 'recrational drug' which actually is a stimulant, but not a PED.

Alf Veedersane

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Lets just clear something up here.

Maybe it will turn out that Michael O'Reilly simply smoked marijuana. I don't know. But it has to be said that there is no clear division between recreational drugs and PEDs.

Some recreational drugs are stimulants and are not classified as PEDs.

Some stimulants are not even banned.

Benzylpiperazine is banned by WADA, but it is considered a recreational drug. It may be used recreationally, but its dompaminergic reactions result in hyperactivity. Its effects are apparently similar to amphetamine.

So there you have an innocent-sounding 'recrational drug' which actually is a stimulant, but not a PED.

As I said, the banned list isn't restricted to PEDs. There doesn't need to be a clear differentiation between what's recreational and what's a PED. Just between what's banned and what isn't.

Elite athletes should know that list inside out.

Alf Veedersane

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

As I said, the banned list isn't restricted to PEDs. There doesn't need to be a clear differentiation between what's recreational and what's a PED.

Some posters here seem to think that a recreational drug can't be a stimulant.

If anyone has that misunderstanding, I'm just attempting to clarify that.

Recreational drugs aren't simply banned because they're bad for your health. A lot of recreational drugs are stimulants and can lead to an unfair competitive advantage.

Pherekydes

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Recreational drugs aren't simply banned because they're bad for your health. A lot of recreational drugs are stimulants and can lead to an unfair competitive advantage.

But only in competition. That is the point. And this was an out-of-competition test. But nothing official has been announced about the substance, so we're still in the dark.

Alf Veedersane

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Some posters here seem to think that a recreational drug can't be a stimulant.

If anyone has that misunderstanding, I'm just attempting to clarify that.

Recreational drugs aren't simply banned because they're bad for your health. A lot of recreational drugs are stimulants and can lead to an unfair competitive advantage.

Fairy nuff.

In any case, the question shouldn't be "why is X on the banned list?" but rather "what was he/she doing taking X when it's on the list of prohibited substances?" and if they didn't know it was, then why not?

Especially when you're going into an Olympics with a chance of a medal. Ludicrous.

Pherekydes

Pherekydes wrote: »

this was an out-of-competition test.

Link?

Pherekydes

I just saw this, due to quotation issues.

Pherekydes wrote: »

Cathal Lombard was never remotely the fastest white man on the planet.

He was the 'fastest' white man on the planet over 10,000 metres. When he was taking EPO.

Pherekydes wrote: »

A guy had a spliff (perhaps) and everyone wants to drag up every old case to illustrate a point, what exactly, I don't know. Cathal Lombard and this case are not linked. de Bruin's case and this case are not linked.

We have a problem with the media discourse, in my view, which is the whole point of this thread.

I'm not claiming there is a widespread conspiracy in the halls of the Irish sporting authorities. I'm criticising the media analysis of doping in sport. Read the OP.

In that sense, I'm a bit confused as to why this thread was landed in the Sports forum and not left in AH or sent to the Media forum, but that wasn't my decision.

mansize

He's gone straight to appeal.