The Dole

KCross

You can contribute negatively, of course.
If you are a criminal you are a burden and thats why we have laws.

Obese people.... hmm... obesity isnt necessarily a choice (i.e. they eat too much therefore its their fault or choice). It can be (and often is) genetic. So, I dont see them as negative contributors and even if they were, society should educate at an early age on that.

Likewise with smoking. Education is key and society should provide that.

Mental illness is a difficult one. I dont have a clear cut answer there but I dont think it, on its own, is enough to support your system. If someone has a social phobia they could look for a job that doesnt involve meeting people. Internet based job, back office job, gardening etc etc. I dont think a universal income with no questions asked is a clear cut solution as you suggest either.

I still dont know what the "cancer sufferer taking up a bed" comment was about.


Lets agree to disagree as neither of us are likely to get what we would like for the forseeable future.

I enjoyed the debate though!

Tony EH

andekwarhola wrote: »

Ironically you'd be completely undercutting those people already in employment at stuff like street cleaning, rubbish collecting, cleaning and whatever random low skill job categories people usually pull out of their arses to service handy punition narratives.

It's always gas how people like the OP, who suggest these hair brained schemes, can't see the obvious pitfall in their suggestions.

They're completely blinded by some petty revenge fantasy on unemployed people they know nothing about. It would be kind of funny, if it weren't so malicious.

johnnyskeleton

Tony EH wrote: »

It's always gas how people like the OP, who suggest these hair brained schemes, can't see the obvious pitfall in their suggestions.

They're completely blinded by some petty revenge fantasy on unemployed people they know nothing about. It would be kind of funny, if it weren't so malicious.

Mod note:

Constructive posts, not digs at the OP, please.

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

It's always gas how people like the OP, who suggest these hair brained schemes, can't see the obvious pitfall in their suggestions.

They're completely blinded by some petty revenge fantasy on unemployed people they know nothing about. It would be kind of funny, if it weren't so malicious.

Whereas I've noticed there's always some form of excuse for them. Excuses that wouldn't be accepted for other parts of society being such a drain on resources. (I have been unemployed before, was on the Dole for one year, and then went abroad repeatedly for work)

I suggested placing the unemployed in work in Germany or other EU countries if there was no work in Ireland, and supplementing the dole with some salary from the employer. Then I was accused of suggesting of Press ganging people... I drew the comaprison with 80's Ireland and going to Britain for work, and was told that everything was different now.

I believe It really doesn't matter (judging from the overall thread) what we suggest to change or improve the system. Those with a reason to support the unemployed in, well.. being unemployed, won't accept any change to that status, unless its a perfect job, with high salary/benefits. I'm not even sure they'd accept even that on boards.

I certainly don't think most people on the Dole think that way.... but I suspect many on boards do.

Tony EH

Deleted User wrote: »

Whereas I've noticed there's always some form of excuse for them.

Just look at the way you're talking about hundreds of thousands of people of people. :rolleyes:

The unemployed are a vast number, the huge majority of whom are there through no fault of their own and wish NOT to be unemployed. You simply cannot lump them all in one bucket with "them" written on the side.

Don't let bitterness against the tiny minority who grift the system cloud your opinion of the vast majority, who would happily be off social welfare and back in work in the morning.

Deleted User wrote: »

I suggested placing the unemployed in work in Germany or other EU countries if there was no work in Ireland, and supplementing the dole with some salary from the employer.

And it's nonsense. What you're suggesting is that people on the dole be sent to other countries to fill roles that should be filled by a person receiving a proper wage for that role. All that does is displace labour and drive wages down. Why would an employer pay someone the going rate for a job when they could get it for little or nothing?

Have you missed all the abuse of the jobbridge system?

Plus, say a man with a wife and two kids gets laid off from a job he was doing for 20+ years. Finds it hard to get a new job (because it is stupidly hard to get one in Ireland). Does social welfare "place" him in a job in Germany? Sorry, screw you and your family, you're going to Germany.

Deleted User wrote: »

Then I was accused of suggesting of Press ganging people...

Because that's the logical conclusion to what you're trying to suggest.

Deleted User wrote: »

I drew the comaprison with 80's Ireland and going to Britain for work, and was told that everything was different now.

People who did that, did so voluntarily. They did it off there own bat. Like people who do it today. There's no difference.

What you're suggesting is that people are "placed" into this situation and that IS different.

Think.

Tony EH

I am trying very hard not to be too sarcastic here but he's making it difficult.

Tony EH wrote: »

Just look at the way you're talking about hundreds of thousands of people of people. :rolleyes:

Without placing "them" in bold, its a fairly reasonable sentence. What? I should name them individually? :rolleyes:

The unemployed are a vast number, the huge majority of whom are there through no fault of their own and wish NOT to be unemployed. You simply cannot lump them all in one bucket with "them" written on the side.

Sure I can. The Unemployed. Them. considering the Context of the discussion. The subject we are talking about. A group of people within a particular target of discussion.

You're seeking insults where there are none. Why? Why not address the content of my post rather than argue Grammar, or seek a sympathy vote?

Don't let bitterness against the tiny minority who grift the system cloud your opinion of the vast majority, who would happily be off social welfare and back in work in the morning.

Funny. I never mentioned anything about grifting or such. I spoke about those unemployed past a year, who are physically and mentally capable of working. I've actually said that a few times in this thread.

And it's nonsense.

What you're suggesting is that people on the dole be sent to other countries to fill roles that should be filled by a person receiving a proper wage for that role. All that does is displace labour and drive wages down. Why would an employer pay someone the going rate for a job when they could get it for little or nothing?

Nope. I'm suggesting that people from countries with unemployment are sent to countries who are seeking people to work in their countries. like Germany. Rather than inviting immigrants from outside of Europe, they employ Europeans instead.

As for salary, the employer pays an amount agreed as part of a government initiative and the government pays the remainder as part of the dole payment (they're already receiving). Lodgings could easily be provided within the salary amount. And I suspect the German people themselves would much prefer other europeans to the influx of immigrants.

I don't quite understand why you're so resistant to ideas that essentially get people working again (improving their resume and further chances of employment once the economy recovers), and actually provide a better income. Sitting on the dole doesn't help their future emloyment prospects at all.

Have you missed all the abuse of the jobbridge system?

Ahh yes, because there has been abuse in one system we should never try again with a new system. Good logic there. You haven't learned the concept of learning from mistakes?

Plus, say a man with a wife and two kids gets laid off from a job he was doing for 20+ years. Finds it hard to get a new job (because it is stupidly hard to get one in Ireland). Does social welfare "place" him in a job in Germany? Sorry, screw you and your family, you're going to Germany.

There are cheap flights dublin to munich for as little as 60 euro
(I'm sure a deeper search could find cheaper ones). I think surely the government can arrange cheap flights for monthly/weekly return of employees under the system. Earning a real wage above that of the dole payment, would mean that a person could easily afford such a cost.

Because that's the logical conclusion to what you're trying to suggest.

Only if you don't want to work for your income. Whereas I have had jobs where I commuted three-four hours each way... I didn't just give up and plonk my ass down to receive the dole. Which is what you obviously prefer.

People who did that, did so voluntarily. They did it off there own bat. Like people who do it today. There's no difference.

What you're suggesting is that people are "placed" into this situation and that IS different.

Shock. Horror. They're placed in jobs which pay them a salary instead of just giving them the dole? Seriously?

Maybe I have a different attitude because I believe people should actually work for a living rather than just seeking handouts all the time. After all, It's the people who are working who end paying for "the unemployed" (is that better than using "them"?)

I will repeat something since you seem to keep missing it. I'm referring to people on the dole longer than a year who are physically and mentally capable of working.

I think all unemployed are fully entitled to welfare with the year period... but after a year, if jobs are offered by the government then they should be taken.

Think.

Seriously? You have got to be joking.

kerryguy78

At least 50% of people on the dole longer than ten years are spongers and no one can say otherwise, we all know them, they are the ones who spend all day in the pub, the hardest thing they do every week is draw their money!

Markcheese

kerryguy78 wrote:

At least 50% of people on the dole longer than ten years are spongers and no one can say otherwise, we all know them, they are the ones who spend all day in the pub, the hardest thing they do every week is draw their money!

Thats a very broad statement, 10 years is a long time,if you've been unemployed for 10 years chances are your close to unemployable, without some major help... how are you going to spend all day in the pub if you've only got a welfare check..
but I do believe that after a year or so on the dole you should have to be doing 20/25 hours a week of social/ community work or a course to recieve a payment.. even if its just visiting elderly neighbours, or helping at the local soccer/ gaa club ,or tidy towns.

kerryguy78

I use ten years as a timeline because ten years ago there was loads of jobs but people didn't bother getting them. This babysitting culture in this country must stop. I see lots of lazy young people going down the dole road too

Destiiny

I know people receiving the dole but having to do courses and such.

NIMAN

I know people in NI in their 40s who have never paid a penny in tax from working.
These people worked very occasionally for cash in hand, but most of their adult life they have been on welfare. Taking plenty out of the system but contributing absolutely nothing.

They also have children who appear to be going the same route.

These are the sort of people that need addressing, as they are a real burden on the system and the system is crumbling.

kerryguy78

It is a big drain on the country's purse and I know people get stuck in a rut that is hard to get out of. Young people need a helping hand too to see that they can do it. My son 17 has done the leaving and straight away I got him in to the company I work for, if I didn't give him that helping hand he wouldn't have got there I think. Now he had an interview last week for an apprenticeship and it looked really good for him to be able to tell them he is working for a multinational company, of course he didn't mention I was working there too!!!! But that is the helping hand young people need .

kerryguy78

kerryguy78 wrote: »

This babysitting culture in this country must stop.

Totally agree.

kerryguy78

Like I read yesterday it costs the state €98000 a year to keep one prisoner in max security, they have tv's play stations the finest of food and they are after ruining people's lives with their crimes

kerryguy78

kerryguy78 wrote: »

Like I read yesterday it costs the state €98000 a year to keep one prisoner in max security, they have tv's play stations the finest of food and they are after ruining people's lives with their crimes

Again, I'm in full agreement. I suppose I've become more right winged as I got older because I don't like the leftie idea of giving in to criminals. People or crinimals should fear prison. I know, I already do, and I've never committed any serious crime. (Not really including having a a joint at home)

Prison should be punishment. Not simply holding them for a period of time. Hard labour, a suspension of "most" rights (they've chosen not to accept anyway), and harsh sentencing for violent crimes. And remove this whole insanity plea. It's just abused anyway. And repeat offenders who see the inside of a prison get a scale of increased punishment until they relent or are removed completely from society.

Just my opinion, and I know I'll probably get slated for saying it. If anyone wants to create a new thread, I'll join in. .

kerryguy78

I totally agree with you, the thing that gets me is concurrent sentencing, if your going to commit one crime you may as well commit a few more it's the same sentence you get

snubbleste

kerryguy78 wrote: »

It is a big drain on the country's purse and I know people get stuck in a rut that is hard to get out of. Young people need a helping hand too to see that they can do it. My son 17 has done the leaving and straight away I got him in to the company I work for, if I didn't give him that helping hand he wouldn't have got there I think. Now he had an interview last week for an apprenticeship and it looked really good for him to be able to tell them he is working for a multinational company, of course he didn't mention I was working there too!!!! But that is the helping hand young people need .

It's called nepotism.

kerryguy78

snubbleste wrote: »

It's called nepotism.

It is but our company took on ten students for the summer, it opens their eyes and shows them how the world of work goes, more companies should be doing this to help our youth

NIMAN

Nepotism isn't good though.

kerryguy78

NIMAN wrote: »

Nepotism isn't good though.

Well to be fair it got my son on to the employment ladder, I do agree there are people out there who are well capable of doing the job but no one there to pull strings for them.

Markcheese

kerryguy78 wrote:

Like I read yesterday it costs the state €98000 a year to keep one prisoner in max security, they have tv's play stations the finest of food and they are after ruining people's lives with their crimes

And ? They have much more freedom /liberty in swedish jails and much less recidivism...

na1

Speedwell wrote: »

I started off by saying that if the job needs to be done, then it is a proper job with a market rate and should be offered to a job applicant at that rate. If nobody wants the job at the offered rate, then by definition the rate offered is not the market rate.

If you have offered a job to someone at the market rate, they are employed, not unemployed. You can't be unemployed and employed at the same time. If what you mean to propose is for people who receive benefits to be hired for a job and paid only the amount of their benefits, and the amount of benefit is less than the market compensation for the job, then you are engaging in wage theft.

There is no such thing as a "free market" in this country.
The minimal wage & the dole make this country a parasite heaven.
Make the Dole 100k for everyone, and nobody will work again. Does this mean that there are no jobs anymore because noone wants a job?

There are plenty of works (not jobs) to be done in this country, but there is a great shortage of incentive to work (or skills to do the work).
IMO the JB should be left or even increased proportional to the last salary (say 70% of the last salary for 6 month), JA should be abolished, or replaced with public service low-skilled work, with a rate of payment equat to current JA rates

na1

Speedwell wrote: »

Do you have a plan to provide a supply of such low wage/skill jobs sufficient to offer one to each recipient? People with chronic issues that make them unemployable, well, to put it bluntly, make very poor employees. Without services that make them employable, this is a bad plan.

There is PLENTY of work to be done, far exceeding the numbers on the Live Register.
What a chronic issues are you talking about?
TV related obesity? Alcoholism? Drug abuse?

K-9

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, I'm in full agreement. I suppose I've become more right winged as I got older because I don't like the leftie idea of giving in to criminals. People or crinimals should fear prison. I know, I already do, and I've never committed any serious crime. (Not really including having a a joint at home)

Prison should be punishment. Not simply holding them for a period of time. Hard labour, a suspension of "most" rights (they've chosen not to accept anyway), and harsh sentencing for violent crimes. And remove this whole insanity plea. It's just abused anyway. And repeat offenders who see the inside of a prison get a scale of increased punishment until they relent or are removed completely from society.

Just my opinion, and I know I'll probably get slated for saying it. If anyone wants to create a new thread, I'll join in. .

You need the carrot and the stick, plus there are loads of deeper issues along with those above. Drugs, education, poor backgrounds etc. Prison alone doesn't solve them.

Sentencing can often be a joke. I often see cases were some guy has 3 or 4 pages of a rap sheet and a judge wants to give him "one last chance". You need to give them programs to minimise the chances of re-offending as much as possible but don't throw away the responsibilities and consequences part.

na1

Joe prim wrote: »

people on the dole, i.e all the forms of welfare available in a modern western state like our own, already have a job. They are consumers, boosting activity in the economy and recycling workers tax money.

that's irrelevant.
Take the money of the Dole recipients and give them back to taxpayers, and the total consumption level will stay the same. Its just a matter of WHO is spending.
The working people who earned the money, or the parasites who have no incentive to work.
You can make it even better for consumption:
The dole recipients have no obligation to spend money locally: they can spend them abroad on holidays, or on smuggled cigarettes etc.
On the opposite: if you give this money to taxpayers you can impose a contract on them to spend this "extra money" locally. I don't think any taxpayer will object.
Again, it is not the matter of supporting local businesses it is just the matter of WHO is spending the money.
I personally think that if the money are spent by those who earn them is more fair.

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

You need the carrot and the stick, plus there are loads of deeper issues along with those above. Drugs, education, poor backgrounds etc. Prison alone doesn't solve them.

You can always find excuses for peoples behvaior. While prison alone doesn't solve them, this is no reason to make prison into a summer camp for them to improve their crinimal "skills". We already have avenues of learning for the poor, for travellers, for the abused, etc. All of these avenues are available for them before they commit crimes.... the thing we are missing is motivation.

IF they fear prison time, then, there will be motivation for them to avail of these other services to provide them with alternatives.

Sentencing can often be a joke. I often see cases were some guy has 3 or 4 pages of a rap sheet and a judge wants to give him "one last chance". You need to give them programs to minimise the chances of re-offending as much as possible but don't throw away the responsibilities and consequences part.

Agreed...and you need to provide them an incentive to reform... which would be the ability to return to mainstream society. As things stand, that option isn't really there. But there still needs to be a definite stick. They've done prison time and easily survived.... what is there to fear?

na1

na1 wrote: »

I personally think that if the money are spent by those who earn them is more fair.

Not going to happen. If it's not the dole, it will be some other group. Probably theyll just decide the travellers needs more benefits or some other rubbish.

Just get used to the idea that the tax you pay is not yours. It's "everyone's". But individuals are not part of everyone. Society has a greater demand of your tax than you do... and "society" has decided that the weakest members of society should be encouraged to stay weak... rather than seek to improve their opportunities towards self-improvement.

I'd suggest forgetting the word fair... it doesnt apply to anyone except those that are "weak", "abused", or "disadvantaged".

na1

Deleted User wrote: »

na1;100707121

society should be encouraged to stay weak... rather than seek to improve their opportunities towards self-improvement.

I think it is opposite:
The "weakest members of society" is the significant part of the population which has a voting power to resign any politic who will try to change the system.
It'll eventually lead to "parasitocracy" - the new type of the social order, where parasites has the voting majority so can rule the government decisions, while not making contributions towards the budged.


"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" ( ) Margaret Thatcher

na1

na1 wrote: »

I think it is opposite:
The "weakest members of society" is the significant part of the population which has a voting power to resign any politic who will try to change the system.
It'll eventually lead to "parasitocracy" - the new type of the social order, where parasites has the voting majority so can rule the government decisions, while not making contributions towards the budged.

why edit my post? You deleted words....

If you're going to quote me, quote me. Don't alter it to suit yourself.

na1

Deleted User wrote: »

na1 wrote: »

I think it is opposite:
The "weakest members of society" is the significant part of the population which has a voting power to resign any politic who will try to change the system.
It'll eventually lead to "parasitocracy" - the new type of the social order, where parasites has the voting majority so can rule the government decisions, while not making contributions towards the budged.

why edit my post? You deleted words....

If you're going to quote me, quote me. Don't alter it to suit yourself.

I left only the part of the post I was answering. Otherwise my answer would be confusing.

starshine1234

It's seems to be all about punishing people.

Why do people on this thread seek to punish people?


There aren't enough jobs for everyone.

The constant suggestions that people should be punished for not having a job are getting tedious.

Why can't our society support everyone?
Why can't the people in good jobs just accept that they are lucky to have the good jobs and stop hating poor people?
If the people in the good jobs don't want the good jobs then leave the job and claim the dole. Simple.
If people in good jobs feel hard done by then leave the job. Stop getting upset and bitter and make a positive choice to leave the job and claim the dole.



In summary, stop being judgemental of other people.
Live your own life and leave other people alone instead of constantly berating them.

Jayop

starshine1234 wrote: »

It's seems to be all about punishing people.

Why do people on this thread seek to punish people?


There aren't enough jobs for everyone.

The constant suggestions that people should be punished for not having a job are getting tedious.

Why can't our society support everyone?
Why can't the people in good jobs just accept that they are lucky to have the good jobs and stop hating poor people?
If the people in the good jobs don't want the good jobs then leave the job and claim the dole. Simple.
If people in good jobs feel hard done by then leave the job. Stop getting upset and bitter and make a positive choice to leave the job and claim the dole.



In summary, stop being judgemental of other people.
Live your own life and leave other people alone instead of constantly berating them.

It's only a matter of time before the fact that there's less jobs than people really dawns on the majority. So many jobs are going to be replaced by automation soon that pretty much anyone low skilled is going to be without work. When that happens though there will still be more than enough money to give everyone a decent standard of life. The living wage thing needs to be properly examined and looked at as a means to stop the attitude of the haves always assuming the have not's are leechers.

na1

na1 wrote: »

I left only the part of the post I was answering. Otherwise my answer would be confusing.

You changed the sentence.

i.e. I wrote.. and "society" has decided that the weakest members of society should be encouraged to stay weak

Your quote of me is " society should be encouraged to stay weak."

You changed the meaning and put it as a quotation. Write your own sentences. Don't edit mine. :mad:

na1

Good point, I meant to leave the whole sentence, just missed the begin by mistake.
Without the begin it wouldn't make any sense anyway.

starshine1234

starshine1234 wrote: »

It's seems to be all about punishing people.

Why do people on this thread seek to punish people?

What punishment? The expectation that the unemployed capable of working, should be working? You actually see that as a punishment....

There aren't enough jobs for everyone.

Aren't there? You're members of Europe with free movement and certain shared rights.

The constant suggestions that people should be punished for not having a job are getting tedious.

Withdrawal of benefits is not a punishment.

Why can't our society support everyone?

Where would the money come from? Seriously, I'd love an answer. How do you expect Ireland with a minor economy to do things that major nations are also incapable of doing?

Why can't the people in good jobs just accept that they are lucky to have the good jobs and stop hating poor people?

Who is hating the poor, and in what way? Clarify.

If the people in the good jobs don't want the good jobs then leave the job and claim the dole. Simple.
If people in good jobs feel hard done by then leave the job. Stop getting upset and bitter and make a positive choice to leave the job and claim the dole.

seriously? Are you really this naive?

In summary, stop being judgemental of other people.
Live your own life and leave other people alone instead of constantly berating them.

It's a discussion board. Why are you here for?

Jayop

Jayop wrote: »

It's only a matter of time before the fact that there's less jobs than people really dawns on the majority. So many jobs are going to be replaced by automation soon that pretty much anyone low skilled is going to be without work. When that happens though there will still be more than enough money to give everyone a decent standard of life. The living wage thing needs to be properly examined and looked at as a means to stop the attitude of the haves always assuming the have not's are leechers.

I don't get this attitude. It's like you're stuck in Amber. Change your skills! Modernize your education! Become employable. Jeez. There is no age limit on going to University, and many incentives for mature students, nevermind all the workshops for more practical skillsets.

Jayop

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't get this attitude. It's like you're stuck in Amber. Change your skills! Modernize your education! Become employable. Jeez. There is no age limit on going to University, and many incentives for mature students, nevermind all the workshops for more practical skillsets.

Some people are simply not cut out for 3rd level education. Some people are quite simply not capabale of upskilling to the standard that will be required in the future to earn a meaningful living.

Even if they do, there will still only be x amount of jobs for graduates and if the amount of graduates is greater than x then we'll just have loads of them out of work too. It's quite simply idiotic to look into the future and see anything other than too many people for the jobs available. So unless you propose a cull or some sort of reproduction limit being introduced that problem will not go away.

A living wage is pretty much an inevitability and it will cut out so much waste in the public sector that a few of them will end up needing it too because there won't be jobs for them either.


When healthcare becomes as simple as repairing yourself at home, all the docs and nurses will be out of work, mechanics won't be needed as much because computers and robots will be repairing out cars. All these trades will become irrelevant.

na1

Jayop wrote: »

starshine1234 wrote: »

It's seems to be all about punishing people.

Why do people on this thread seek to punish people?


There aren't enough jobs for everyone.

The constant suggestions that people should be punished for not having a job are getting tedious.

Why can't our society support everyone?
Why can't the people in good jobs just accept that they are lucky to have the good jobs and stop hating poor people?
If the people in the good jobs don't want the good jobs then leave the job and claim the dole. Simple.
If people in good jobs feel hard done by then leave the job. Stop getting upset and bitter and make a positive choice to leave the job and claim the dole.



In summary, stop being judgemental of other people.
Live your own life and leave other people alone instead of constantly berating them.

It's only a matter of time before the fact that there's less jobs than people really dawns on the majority. So many jobs are going to be replaced by automation soon that pretty much anyone low skilled is going to be without work. When that happens though there will still be more than enough money to give everyone a decent standard of life. The living wage thing needs to be properly examined and looked at as a means to stop the attitude of the haves always assuming the have not's are leechers.

Meanwhile there is LOADS of work to be done which requires certain skills.
I.e. cancer/heart decease medical research, which requires billions of euro to invest. But which can really save thousands of lives (the amount of people die in this country every year from cancer and heart related deceases)
So it is a matter of choice,
Give that multi-billion SWO bill to support people who are "low skilled" to support their comfortable life without job,
OR:
give that money to medical research teams which can potentially save anyone from serious illness or death.

What would be your choice?

Jayop

na1 wrote: »

Meanwhile there is LOADS of work to be done which requires certain skills.
I.e. cancer/heart decease medical research, which requires billions of euro to invest. But which can really save thousands of lives (the amount of people die in this country every year from cancer and heart related deceases)
So it is a matter of choice,
Give that multi-billion SWO bill to support people who are "low skilled" to support their comfortable life without job,
OR:
give that money to medical research teams which can potentially save anyone from serious illness or death.

What would be your choice?

Well if it's a choice between cancer research to save a few thousand people in Ireland or paying people some money so they can feed their family and we dontt have tens of thousands on the streets or starving to death I'd choose the latter.

People aren't going to go away, as much as they might seem like a parasite to you, so you have a choice, let them starve or pay them a living wage which we as a society can afford.

FFS, if it's a choice between one or the other in all these things then why pick on the poor? Why not take away the arts funding, or sports funding or the state jet and put every cent into cancer research. Oh what an enlightened little state we'd be.

Jayop

Jayop wrote: »

Some people are simply not cut out for 3rd level education. Some people are quite simply not capabale of upskilling to the standard that will be required in the future to earn a meaningful living.

There are other options. Industry specific qualifications. Workshop level diplomas. Qualifications from other government aid organisations.

And as for being not cut out for university. My bachelor (4 year course) took me 6 years, and I still only scraped a pass. I came back 8 years later for my honors degree and was the top in my class. People change. We grow up. At least, some do.

You just won't even try. Bailing out.. and expecting others to cover your tab.

Even if they do, there will still only be x amount of jobs for graduates and if the amount of graduates is greater than x then we'll just have loads of them out of work too. It's quite simply idiotic to look into the future and see anything other than too many people for the jobs available. So unless you propose a cull or some sort of reproduction limit being introduced that problem will not go away.

There is no requirement to stay in Ireland... or *gosh* they could start their own small business. Perhaps a webdesign/hosting company? Wouldn't make a fortune but easily more than the dole payments, and no need for formal education. Just hop on to youtube for a few weeks and get the tutorials. So difficult is life.

Most people start working in an industry at a low wage, and then as their experience grows, their salary grows. BUT you consider that beneath the poor. To work upwards. Like the rest of us.

You call it idiotic to attempt to change for the future. I call it idiotic to refuse to change based on variables that aren't even guaranteed. There is loads of work out there... and there will continue to be loads of work out there... the problem is that it is just too hard to do the work or doesn't pay enough for you. You're surrendering before the fight even begins.

A living wage is pretty much an inevitability and it will cut out so much waste in the public sector that a few of them will end up needing it too because there won't be jobs for them either.

Its a dangerous proposition. Why? Because it creates entitlements. And whats the problem with that? because there are no guarantees in economics or the ability to support those entitlements in the future.

When healthcare becomes as simple as repairing yourself at home, all the docs and nurses will be out of work, mechanics won't be needed as much because computers and robots will be repairing out cars. All these trades will become irrelevant.

And new professions will be created. It's just that the world is moving away from physical labor to more intellectual areas... Anticipate the market. Use that brain that God gave you for something better than playing COD.

Mr. teddywinkles

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There are other options. Industry specific qualifications. Workshop level diplomas. Qualifications from other government aid organisations.

And as for being not cut out for university. My bachelor (4 year course) took me 6 years, and I still only scraped a pass. I came back 8 years later for my honors degree and was the top in my class. People change. We grow up. At least, some do.

You just won't even try. Bailing out.. and expecting others to cover your tab.



There is no requirement to stay in Ireland... or *gosh* they could start their own small business. Perhaps a webdesign/hosting company? Wouldn't make a fortune but easily more than the dole payments, and no need for formal education. Just hop on to youtube for a few weeks and get the tutorials. So difficult is life.

You call it idiotic to attempt to change for the future. I call it idiotic to refuse to change based on variables that aren't even guaranteed. There is loads of work out there... and there will continue to be loads of work out there... the problem is that it is just too hard to do the work or doesn't pay enough for you. You're surrendering before the fight even begins.



Its a dangerous proposition. Why? Because it creates entitlements. And whats the problem with that? because there are no guarantees in economics or the ability to support those entitlements in the future.



And new professions will be created. It's just that the world is moving away from physical labor to more intellectual areas... Anticipate the market. Use that brain that God gave you for something better than playing COD.

And varying levels of intellect has nothing to do with this of course

starshine1234

If this is the quality of dabate I despair for the future.

There aren't enough jobs now, and there won't be enough jobs in the future.

People focussing on minor details are missing the larger picture.

Artificial intelligience has the potential to replace every job.

When there are no jobs left what will the naysayers be saying?

People used to say 'I work to live, not live to work'. Clearly many posters on this thread think life is about working and nothing else. Do posters not have any imagination? Can you not imagine a better society?

What about the Star Trek universe? Nobody has to work. Would that be that desirable or not?

Mr. teddywinkles

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

And varying levels of intellect has nothing to do with this of course

huh?

starshine1234

starshine1234 wrote: »

If this is the quality of dabate I despair for the future.

There aren't enough jobs now, and there won't be enough jobs in the future.

People focussing on minor details are missing the larger picture.

Artificial intelligience has the potential to replace every job.

When there are no jobs left what will the naysayers be saying?

People used to say 'I work to live, not live to work'. Clearly many posters on this thread think life is about working and nothing else. Do posters not have any imagination? Can you not imagine a better society?

What about the Star Trek universe? Nobody has to work. Would that be that desirable or not?

Like talking to a wall. So, yes, I feel similiar dispair for the future.

Tony EH

starshine1234 wrote: »

If this is the quality of dabate I despair for the future.

There aren't enough jobs now, and there won't be enough jobs in the future.

People focussing on minor details are missing the larger picture.

Artificial intelligience has the potential to replace every job.

When there are no jobs left what will the naysayers be saying?

People used to say 'I work to live, not live to work'. Clearly many posters on this thread think life is about working and nothing else. Do posters not have any imagination? Can you not imagine a better society?

What about the Star Trek universe? Nobody has to work. Would that be that desirable or not?

These dole threads are always the same. It always ends up as some bitching session for some people to blow hard about something they know little about and come up with unworkable "ideas" about what to do with "dole scum".

It's always a one size fits all approach too. A blanket "solution" that supposed to apply to hundreds of thousands of people. "They should do this, that or t'other".

And it nearly always comes across as simple bitterness.

Mr. teddywinkles

[Deleted User] wrote: »

huh?

You maintain that everyone has the mental capacity for the types of work you describe. Pick some random high tech profession and off you go. Sorted

Jayop

Deleted User wrote: »

There are other options. Industry specific qualifications. Workshop level diplomas. Qualifications from other government aid organisations.

And as for being not cut out for university. My bachelor (4 year course) took me 6 years, and I still only scraped a pass. I came back 8 years later for my honors degree and was the top in my class. People change. We grow up. At least, some do.

You just won't even try. Bailing out.. and expecting others to cover your tab.



There is no requirement to stay in Ireland... or *gosh* they could start their own small business. Perhaps a webdesign/hosting company? Wouldn't make a fortune but easily more than the dole payments, and no need for formal education. Just hop on to youtube for a few weeks and get the tutorials. So difficult is life.

Most people start working in an industry at a low wage, and then as their experience grows, their salary grows. BUT you consider that beneath the poor. To work upwards. Like the rest of us.

You call it idiotic to attempt to change for the future. I call it idiotic to refuse to change based on variables that aren't even guaranteed. There is loads of work out there... and there will continue to be loads of work out there... the problem is that it is just too hard to do the work or doesn't pay enough for you. You're surrendering before the fight even begins.



Its a dangerous proposition. Why? Because it creates entitlements. And whats the problem with that? because there are no guarantees in economics or the ability to support those entitlements in the future.



And new professions will be created. It's just that the world is moving away from physical labor to more intellectual areas... Anticipate the market. Use that brain that God gave you for something better than playing COD.

I don't think I'm going to bother going on with you if you're going to make assumptions based on nothing I've ever said. I've been gainfully employed my entire life having only claimed welfare for a few weeks once when the company I worked for went into receivership. I, unlike some others, am capable of thinking about people other than myself.

Jayop

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

You maintain that everyone has the mental capacity for the types of work you describe. Pick some random high tech profession and off you go. Sorted

Some poor fella that left school barely able to read or write but was doing well enough for himself on the buildings or some other manual trade should now open a web hosting company. If he doesn't he's clearly sitting on his hole playing call of duty.

Easy peasy.

starshine1234

Deleted User wrote: »

Like talking to a wall. So, yes, I feel similiar dispair for the future.

Are you arguing that artificial intelligence doesn't have the potential to replace jobs?

Do you advocate that people should work in jobs that have no purpose? Just to keep them happy, or perhaps just to keep you happy?

For example, we could have people moving piles of rocks from place to place. No purpose to it but it would keep the people busy.

Why should we bother forcing people to work in jobs which don't exist?

Can you address the issue please of insufficient jobs in the future and how that fact fits into your plans and worldview?

Mr. teddywinkles

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

You maintain that everyone has the mental capacity for the types of work you describe. Pick some random high tech profession and off you go. Sorted

There's a lot of other types of work... and web design was just one option and not particularly difficult to get into. Plenty of other IT related work or internet related work, that can yield an income.