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Competitor using our .ie domain name

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    #32
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Seve OB wrote: »
    the website is more company name specific than industry.

    I feel as though you're being deliberately evasive here as you still haven't answered me. Is the domain name a term or phrase that relates to their business offerings?


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    #33
    mrawkward
    Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭mrawkward


    The other guy has much to fear from a passing off action. As a sole trader, all his personal assets are on the line. My guess is dbrans advice is too windy, go in full on, hard and fast...he will buckle like a baby. Far too much poncing around on the topic here on soft side issues... real business people just do it


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    #34
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    mrawkward wrote: »
    The other guy has much to fear from a passing off action. As a sole trader, all his personal assets are on the line. My guess is dbrans advice is too windy, go in full on, hard and fast...he will buckle like a baby. Far too much poncing around on the topic here on soft side issues... real business people just do it

    This is probably the worst advice so far.


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    #35
    mrawkward
    Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭mrawkward


    smash wrote: »
    This is probably the worst advice so far.

    That you do not even understand that I gave solid commercial pragmatic advice speaks volumes....


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    #36
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    mrawkward wrote: »
    That you do not even understand that I gave solid commercial pragmatic advice speaks volumes....

    When you suggest "go in full on, hard and fast...he will buckle like a baby." Without even knowing the details speaks volumes about you. Do you work for a debt collector or something?

    The owner of the domain had a claim to the domain or they would not have got it. They've also operated a page on the domain for over 3 years now without objection.

    This guy bought a business without proper investigation relating to the future web channel of the business which he deems important. He has now decided that he doesn't like what a competitor is doing and what they have been legitimately doing for the last few years. And your advice is to jump in feet first and bully them? Give me a break...


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    #37
    Seve OB
    Registered Users Posts: 15,991 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    smash wrote: »
    I feel as though you're being deliberately evasive here as you still haven't answered me. Is the domain name a term or phrase that relates to their business offerings?

    I am being evasive as I don't want to give the game away. The website name is the name of our company. It has a reference to what we do.


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    #38
    Axwell
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 10,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Axwell


    Seve OB wrote: »
    I've checked. They have it for 3 years. They don't have any business name registered. They are not a company. They are a sole trader operating themselves under a completely different name.

    Are you 100% certain of this and have done thorough checks? If they have been awarded the .ie domain name you can be 99% certain they have a business name registered that is close enough to the domain or shows a clear relationship between the business name and the domain or they would not have been approved it.

    If that's the case then they will have a legitimate entitlement to it and have had it for 3 years without objection. You may find it hard to convince the IEDR otherwise but that would be the best route initially and see what they say before considering legal action that could end up costing you a lot of money or a full on hard and fast approach that could bite you in the ass if you don't have all the facts.


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    #39
    Seve OB
    Registered Users Posts: 15,991 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    smash wrote: »
    When you suggest "go in full on, hard and fast...he will buckle like a baby." Without even knowing the details speaks volumes about you. Do you work for a debt collector or something?

    The owner of the domain had a claim to the domain or they would not have got it. They've also operated a page on the domain for over 3 years now without objection.

    This guy bought a business without proper investigation relating to the future web channel of the business which he deems important. He has now decided that he doesn't like what a competitor is doing and what they have been legitimately doing for the last few years. And your advice is to jump in feet first and bully them? Give me a break...

    Again. We did investigate. We knew the position. It is not a decision we just now made that we don't like what they are doing, we always knew the lie of the land. We decided it was not a deal breaker and the venture was still worth undertaking. We paid out a lot of money for the company and paid a lot of money doing due diligence.

    I only came on here to ask if anyone knew how we might be able to do stake a claim on the website. I have found out that it is not going to be easy, but that I can register a complaint and it probably won't go any further. But I will lodge a complaint and when I know what the outcome is I will let you know. Till then, unless anyone else has some information that can be of benefit to me, I'm done.


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    #40
    mrawkward
    Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭mrawkward


    If the OP is to be believed, the competitor is diverting the goodwill of his new business dishonestly to his own benefit and to the detriment of the OP. That they are using a website/domain name that may or may not be validly held is incidental to the issue of passing off. The means is not the real issue but rather the actions. If the OP is sure of his facts, he instructs solicitors to go in hard, the damage limitation is time critical. Expecting the .ie domain regulator to act quickly and effectively is simply not going to solve the damage being done quickly, if ever!


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    #41
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Seve OB wrote: »
    I am being evasive as I don't want to give the game away. The website name is the name of our company. It has a reference to what we do.

    And it has reference to what they do?


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    #42
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    My understanding of the OP's position is this:

    OP is called Bray Cleaners

    Other business is called Wicklow Cleaners

    BrayCleaners.ie is currently a single page that directs a customer to WicklowCleaners.ie

    Unless the customer is being mislead on BrayCleaners.ie to believe they are interacting with the OPs business, I can't see any passing off occurring.

    It would be quite different if:

    OP is called 'Do It All Cleaners'

    Other business is called 'DIA Cleaners'

    'Do It All Cleaners'.ie is a single page that makes a customer believe they are interacting with the OP, but in fact are redirected to 'DIA Cleaners'.ie

    Without more information, its pure speculation.


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    #43
    mrawkward
    Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭mrawkward


    ironclaw wrote: »
    My understanding of the OP's position is this:

    OP is called Bray Cleaners

    Other business is called Wicklow Cleaners

    BrayCleaners.ie is currently a single page that directs a customer to WicklowCleaners.ie

    Unless the customer is being mislead on BrayCleaners.ie to believe they are interacting with the OPs business, I can't see any passing off occurring.

    It is passing off if a reasonable person were to look at the site and think they were dealing with BrayCleaners!
    Add to that from post #1 "is the scoundrels are telling everyone in the local business, that we have no gone out of business and they have taken over"
    Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, most likely a duck!


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    #44
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    mrawkward wrote: »
    It is passing off if a reasonable person were to look at the site and think they were dealing with BrayCleaners!
    Add to that from post #1 "is the scoundrels are telling everyone in the local business, that we have no gone out of business and they have taken over"
    Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, most likely a duck!

    But that's the critical point, does 'BrayCleaners.ie' make it out to be that the consumer is dealing with the OPs business? Or are they just being told about cleaners in Bray, which happen to operate under the name 'Wicklow Cleaners' and you are redirected to that site instead?

    As regards the 'they are shut down etc etc', you'd want to have that on paper or in print media, otherwise its hearsay.

    OP hasn't given enough information to make that call and its quite a subtle but important point.


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    #45
    FAILSAFE 00
    Registered Users Posts: 5,419 ✭✭✭FAILSAFE 00


    Could it be possible that this other business isn't aware you bought this company so assumes it has closed it doors.


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    #46
    mrawkward
    Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭mrawkward


    ironclaw wrote: »
    My understanding of the OP's position is this:

    OP is called Bray Cleaners

    Other business is called Wicklow Cleaners

    BrayCleaners.ie is currently a single page that directs a customer to WicklowCleaners.ie

    Unless the customer is being mislead on BrayCleaners.ie to believe they are interacting with the OPs business, I can't see any passing off occurring.

    It would be quite different if:

    OP is called 'Do It All Cleaners'

    Other business is called 'DIA Cleaners'

    'Do It All Cleaners'.ie is a single page that makes a customer believe they are interacting with the OP, but in fact are redirected to 'DIA Cleaners'.ie

    Without more information, its pure speculation.
    ironclaw wrote: »
    But that's the critical point, does 'BrayCleaners.ie' make it out to be that the consumer is dealing with the OPs business? Or are they just being told about cleaners in Bray, which happen to operate under the name 'Wicklow Cleaners' and you are redirected to that site instead?

    As regards the 'they are shut down etc etc', you'd want to have that on paper or in print media, otherwise its hearsay.

    OP hasn't given enough information to make that call and its quite a subtle but important point.

    I am with you on the lack of all pertinent information. It is also important that it is understood the IEDR or Business/Company Name registration affords next to no legal name protection. Registered/unregistered marks are much more solid in that regard and supported by passing off law/remedies in infringement.


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    #47
    mrawkward
    Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭mrawkward


    If it were my business I would be scouting out a proper litigation solicitor with expertise in the whole Intellectual Property area, does not need to be one of the big firms either.


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    #48
    VincePP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 982 ✭✭✭VincePP


    How important is the domain name to the business?

    Will you be selling online or is it a showroom site?

    Can you change the name slightly by adding and 's' or even deleting part of the name?

    At the end of the day, good seo and prominent stating of the domain name will win out.


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    #49
    Nuttzz
    Registered Users Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Nuttzz


    Targeted correctly and with proper SEO your .com site will outrank any redirected .ie site within a matter of weeks


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    #50
    mneylon
    Registered Users Posts: 7,739 ✭✭✭mneylon


    It's not clear if the company name and domain name are "unique" or more "generic"
    If the company name and the corresponding name are "unique" (think "Yahoo" versus "Dublin Cleaners") then the position is quite different to one where the name is more generic.

    If the competitor is, as is being suggested, "passing off" then you should probably seek legal advice. A good solicitor would be able to advise on what the best course of action is, but a "cease and desist" letter might solve the matter.

    With respect to the domain name itself, if the OP feels that it was registered in bad faith then they can use the IEDR's dispute resolution process:
    http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/cctld/ie/

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