Treating people with mental health issues

Andy From Sligo

Widdershins wrote: »

I don't see autistic people going for this . They tend to be very honest not devious people. Maybe someone self diagnosed somewhere along the line .

true - I'm just thinking about what the news said about them being targeted because of their vulnerability as well , and mentally ill people who are already depressed and hate life, and or hate people and feel like they have no place in life and separated and feel isolated, I could just see a terrorist organisation taking advantage of this and appealing to these type of people and brainwashing them

Andy From Sligo

someone was mentioning earlier on in this thread about people that have to wait a year or more are on the 'low risk' waiting list , i thought it was due to cutbacks but it sounds like its 'policies' - so what I think there should be (and there may well be something like this already in place) but you know when you visit A&E and you wait for a while and you see a nurse (is it called a triage nurse or something like that) they see you first and assess whether you need to be sent home with a paracetamol or need to stay longer and be seen to in A&E ... does the same kind of system exist in the mental health services or is it just a GP that asses you and decides whether you should go on the waiting list or be seen quickly ?

Pro Hoc Vice

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

So the way it is at the moment is that a person cannot be detained/sectioned under the mental health act against their will .... but if they are not thinking straight or cannot make decisions due to their mental health at that particular time why are they left to make that decision?

Did you not read the Act I posted? A person can and in fact are detained against their will in Ireland on a regular basis.

Pro Hoc Vice

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

someone was mentioning earlier on in this thread about people that have to wait a year or more are on the 'low risk' waiting list , i thought it was due to cutbacks but it sounds like its 'policies' - so what I think there should be (and there may well be something like this already in place) but you know when you visit A&E and you wait for a while and you see a nurse (is it called a triage nurse or something like that) they see you first and assess whether you need to be sent home with a paracetamol or need to stay longer and be seen to in A&E ... does the same kind of system exist in the mental health services or is it just a GP that asses you and decides whether you should go on the waiting list or be seen quickly ?

It's the same for mental health as any other illness, I am aware of people who have presented and within hours are in hospital.

Widdershins

I have always wondered about the system for addressing mental health but I think mentally ill people of all kinds are a completely separate category to terrorists . The only people I can think of who would be particularly suitable for SIS's ends are Sociopaths and they don't present like a person suffering from bpd or depression .
They do very well for themselves due to their ruthlessness etc.
'Angry', impressionable, bored but otherwise 'normal '/typical young men are the typical targets for recruitment to bloodthirsty cults .
We need to mind our young men , not fear our mentally ill folk.

The Russell Square killer could be diagnosed mentally ill within minutes but they couldn't name him even after visiting his home ?
Fundamental religion is by its very nature delusional . So delusional mentally ill religious people are ripe for being programmed by the extremists within that religious cult .


By the current thinking there will be some historical revisionism. Is it really fair to label Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Vlad the Impaler - - as ruthless monsters? Surely the first thing to remember is that they had "mental health issues"?

I don't think so . Sociopaths maybe .

BaaLamb

I'm finding this thread is making me incredibly uncomfortable. As someone with a few "labels" in terms of mental health I really don't think this discussion is helpful to anyone particularly someone who may already feel stigmatised by having mental illness. And yes I know it is After Hours and people are entitled to opinions etc etc. I just think this thread is a bit distasteful.

Pro Hoc Vice

BaaLamb wrote: »

I'm finding this thread is making me incredibly uncomfortable. As someone with a few "labels" in terms of mental health I really don't think this discussion is helpful to anyone particularly someone who may already feel stigmatised by having mental illness. And yes I know it is After Hours and people are entitled to opinions etc etc. I just think this thread is a bit distasteful.

I totally agree with you I think a particular poster is not being helpful to the very important topic of mental health, and may be getting much of their information from bad sources.

Widdershins

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I totally agree with you I think a particular poster is not being helpful to the very important topic of mental health, and may be getting much of their information from bad sources.

Way to make people paranoid

BaaLamb

Widdershins wrote: »

Way to make people paranoid

Paranoia seems kinda appropriate given the content of the thread :-D

lawlolawl

"Let's talk about mental health!"

/a few posts later

"You shouldn't say X, Y or Z about mental health. These are the things you can say...... "

Penny Tration

lawlolawl wrote: »

"Let's talk about mental health!"

/a few posts later

"You shouldn't say X, Y or Z about mental health. These are the things you can say...... "

No, it's more like

"Let's talk about mental health."

/A few posts later

"Please don't make false statements and judgements about mentally ill people."

jh79

BaaLamb wrote: »

I don't know where you did your reading on OCD but I can tell you categorically that you are incorrect regarding voices in ocd sufferers heads. What ocd is about is Obessions and Compulsions that manifest themselves in extreme overt or covert rituals. So the typical way OCD is represented is the obsessive hand washer or the obsessive who checks the gas is off. You do not have OCD unless you are unable to ignore your obsession and have developed compulsions (rituals) such as checking the lights are off a specific number of times before going to bed. http://www.ocdireland.org/the-three-disorders/ocd/

Nowhere have I ever read that voices in your head is part of OCD. Voices in your head does not mean you are mentally ill but such symptoms are associated with psychosis which can be part of some mental illnesses. However having voices in your head does not automatically mean you're going to hurt someone even if it is associated with psychosis.https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/a-to-z/h/hearing-voices

OCD can manifest itself as intrusive thoughts in the form of your own internal voice repeating things that make you feel uncomfortable or telling you to do something dangerous .

A common example is straight people having their internal voice telling them they are gay. Some then invent rituals to block the thoughts but not all.

There is a lot more to OCD then "checking" and rituals.

http://www.ocduk.org/types-ocd

Tell me how

jh79 wrote:

A common example is straight people having their internal voice telling them they are gay. Some then invent rituals to block the thoughts but not all.

My immediate response when I read this was "Jayysssuuuussss".

RDM_83 again

222233 wrote: »

involuntary admissions to facilities still happen and exist they are rare about 10%, in the case of children the admission is deemed voluntary if the parent/guardian has agreed to it irrespective of whether or not the child is in agreement.

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Did you not read the Act I posted? A person can and in fact are detained against their will in Ireland on a regular basis.

I'm definitely no expert on this but while there is involuntary incarceration in Ireland does it happen as much as it should?

I know of one case where the family was trying to get their son "sectioned"* and they were unable to, they went on to destroy their lives in an act that didn't harm other people (directly) AFAIK but very easily could have.

I remember a relative who works in this area in another jurisdiction hypothesizing that in modern Ireland it has swung too far the other way because of the misuse in historic Ireland. The Priest or other community persons used to hold a lot of power in terms of institutionalizing people, this obviously wasn't right but with that avenue gone your left with relying on authorities and mental health workers who are overburdened potentially disinterested and have great reluctance because of historic abuses of the processes.

While the vast vast majority of mentally ill people aren't a danger to society and most of those that are risk to themselves are probably best served with care in the community is it the case within Ireland where involuntary institutionalization has become so taboo because of our history that its now too hard to implement.

I would be curious about a comparison between modern Ireland and other European countries.

BaaLamb

jh79 wrote: »

OCD can manifest itself as intrusive thoughts in the form of your own internal voice repeating things that make you feel uncomfortable or telling you to do something dangerous .

A common example is straight people having their internal voice telling them they are gay. Some then invent rituals to block the thoughts but not all.

There is a lot more to OCD then "checking" and rituals.

http://www.ocduk.org/types-ocd

It isn't an internal voice as such, rather these are intrusive thoughts which is very different. Voices in your head is not an OCD symptom.

Pro Hoc Vice

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I'm definitely no expert on this but while there is involuntary incarceration in Ireland does it happen as much as it should?

I know of one case where the family was trying to get their son "sectioned"* and they were unable to, they went on to destroy their lives in an act that didn't harm other people (directly) AFAIK but very easily could have.

I remember a relative who works in this area in another jurisdiction hypothesizing that in modern Ireland it has swung too far the other way because of the misuse in historic Ireland. The Priest or other community persons used to hold a lot of power in terms of institutionalizing people, this obviously wasn't right but with that avenue gone your left with relying on authorities and mental health workers who are overburdened potentially disinterested and have great reluctance because of historic abuses of the processes.

While the vast vast majority of mentally ill people aren't a danger to society and most of those that are risk to themselves are probably best served with care in the community is it the case within Ireland where involuntary institutionalization has become so taboo because of our history that its now too hard to implement.

I would be curious about a comparison between modern Ireland and other European countries.

http://www.mhcirl.ie/File/2015-Annual-Report-inc-Report-OIMS.pdf

Page 44 monthly involuntary admissions in 2015, the graph also shows the monthly voluntary admissions that are relisted as inboluntary.

Widdershins

About the global outbreak of ''mental illness ''. (The Bavarian train attack has since been confirmed to be connected to isis .)

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/06/video-robert-spencer-on-the-global-outbreak-of-mental-illness

jh79

BaaLamb wrote: »

It isn't an internal voice as such, rather these are intrusive thoughts which is very different. Voices in your head is not an OCD symptom.

An intrusive thought can be your own internal voice telling you to do something.

Intrusive thoughts don't have to be visual or a feeling.

For example you could be walking over a bridge and an intrusive thought could be your own internal voice telling you to jump. The same internal voice that also tells you to do the lotto on your way from work for example.

Hearing different voice types is not a symptom of OCD.

At least that's my take on it

RDM_83 again

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

http://www.mhcirl.ie/File/2015-Annual-Report-inc-Report-OIMS.pdf

Page 44 monthly involuntary admissions in 2015, the graph also shows the monthly voluntary admissions that are relisted as inboluntary.

Thanks for that, I know a comparison between countries is probably both hard to do because of different laws and definitions and possibly not that useful because of different demographics but looking at this information (Table 1) it appears the UK's "commitment/sectioning" rate is about 10% higher than Irelands.

I can't get access to this paper unfortunately
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12100342

and this one seems to throw out some strange figures
http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_projects/2000/promotion/fp_promotion_2000_frep_08_en.pdf
It seems unbelievable that Finland is 7 times more likely to detain somebody than Denmark.

The interesting thing about that UK paper is it seems to indicate that a reduction of mental health beds and increased care in the community increases the rate of involuntary admissions.

While I don't agree with the way the OP has worded things and their generalization about mental illness perhaps we should talk about involuntary admissions and if the system is fit for function for at risk individuals.

blue5000

Maybe shove all mentally ill people under a bridge out of sight.

JuliusCaesar

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Haha - people really go to a doctor and admit they hear voices in their head saying cause harm to yourself or others ? off their own backs ....really?

Yes, they do.

And if they don't, generally their family will mention it to a GP that the person is hearing voices - then the GP can assess necessity for psychiatric intervention. If necessary, they can be detained in a mental hospital for assessment and treatment involuntarily.

Widdershins

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Yes, they do.

And if they don't, generally their family will mention it to a GP that the person is hearing voices - then the GP can assess necessity for psychiatric intervention. If necessary, they can be detained in a mental hospital for assessment and treatment involuntarily.

Not in my experience . There was a crisis before any medical attention was received in any case I am familiar with .
I think people who are used to discussing their mental state assume everyone does the same . A lot of people don't .

JuliusCaesar

Widdershins wrote: »

'Angry', impressionable, bored but otherwise 'normal '/typical young men are the typical targets for recruitment to bloodthirsty cults .
We need to mind our young men , not fear our mentally ill folk.

The Russell Square killer could be diagnosed mentally ill within minutes but they couldn't name him even after visiting his home ?
Fundamental religion is by its very nature delusional . So delusional mentally ill religious people are ripe for being programmed by the extremists within that religious cult .

The social problems that give rise to feelings of alienation and vulnerability and hopelessness can make people vulnerable to depression and all sorts of strange thinking. Some of it within the confines of 'normality' (joining cult religions, or becoming a fundamental Christian or whatever) and some outside (joining terrorist organisations or acting on behalf of them).

We really need to address the factors that cause this kind of thing; most people will eventually find their own place in society, but some won't - or can't, because of the crimes they have committed against others, or because they have killed themselves.

Pro Hoc Vice

judge_ned wrote: »

technically yes but involuntary detention is extremely rare nowadays , the right to freedom of the unwell individual trumps any concern for their immediete family or the general public

unless you physically injure someone , a person would not be detained any longer than a few days even they were technically sectioned

So you think in excess of 150 such detentions a month is rare

Pro Hoc Vice

judge_ned wrote: »

no they are not !

even it happens , they are inevitably back out in a few days , the system is dominated by liberals nowadays

Yes they are and they often not released in matter of days as a MHT hearing would not even happen in a matter of days.

triona1

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Yes they are and they often not released in matter of days as a MHT hearing would not even happen in a matter of days.

This.i have had to bypass GP and either ring for an ambalance or if I can get around my partner he will voluntarily come with me,when an ambulance is required the gardai come with them for everyone's safety and he'll go straight passed A&E and I sign him in he then stays in a room on his own being monitored for days then if he wants to leave the hospital can and have sectioned him,Then I'll be asked after a number of weeks if i feel he's ready to leave if I say no that's it he stays then the option of him being let home twice a week from 10am-10pm then it goes to weekend's.Hospital's are very very cautious of patients becoming institutionalised.

Andy From Sligo

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Yes, they do.

And if they don't, generally their family will mention it to a GP that the person is hearing voices - then the GP can assess necessity for psychiatric intervention. If necessary, they can be detained in a mental hospital for assessment and treatment involuntarily.

I would be more concerned with sufferers that have no family, or no close friends to tell the GP - I would also feel sorry for sufferers where their family (maybe older) dont ' believe in this kind of thing' and tell people to 'cop yourself on' and "we didnt have this in my day, you just have to learn to snap out of it!" - I bet there are still plenty of them about, ... in fact I know there are still!

And sorry, I shouldnt have said 'Haha..' in my earlier post that was totally wrong of me and i am definately not treating things as a joke - its a very serious subject!

Andy From Sligo

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

..then the GP can assess necessity for psychiatric intervention. If necessary, they can be detained in a mental hospital for assessment and treatment involuntarily.

and therein lies another problem I think - there are some really useless GP's out there , some that are only good to prescribe paracetamol and no more . - I feel uncomfortable with GP's assessing necessity for psychiatric intervention, for a start I dont think they are that qualified to make the assessment... but thats my view ... oh and past experience at one time.... oh actually more than once sorry

Pro Hoc Vice

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

and therein lies another problem I think - there are some really useless GP's out there , some that are only good to prescribe paracetamol and no more . - I feel uncomfortable with GP's assessing necessity for psychiatric intervention, for a start I dont think they are that qualified to make the assessment... but thats my view ... oh and past experience at one time.... oh actually more than once sorry

Hence why more than GP's can make the decision, like family. No offence but you started saying it can't happen, when corrected you said it rarely happens, when corrected and told it happens 2000 plus times a year you blame GP's.

K-9

lawlolawl wrote: »

Also, the "no voice" thing is nonsense along with the idea that no one talks about mental health.

It's quite the opposite. Nowadays, no one shuts up about mental health and everyone has something wrong with them.

Not shutting up about it has been shown to help. Might annoy a few like yourself but that doesn't really matter if it helps people who need it.