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M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]
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Comments
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punisher5112 wrote: »Look at all the US states where they actually had highway running through or around cities but not only that they were on stilts.....
Now they are in a few removing these as I will agree they look terrible but they worked but now are going under ground.
This is something that really needs to be thought about and especially major pinch points.
Imagine bray, kilmac and the glen all bypassed under ground....
No impact to the surrounding areas or more trees lost.
Yes yes I know cost but still how can other countries pull it off.
The way Madrid undergrounded huge sections of it's highways to free the space for parks and a more liveable and walkable city was a spectacular project with great results!0 -
Nobody wouldn’t want the best of both worlds- quality road out of sight and open spaces, natural parklands, greenways, rainbows and unicorns but the cost of tunnelling or cut and cover would make it unlikely to happen as finding a a mythical horned horse roaming the glen!
The port tunnel cost nearly a billion way back, how much would something like the above cost now remembering you don’t have the space to cut and cover on the existing route without closing or restricting the road during construction?0 -
If they were going to tunnel, the only logical tunnel would be through Bray Head to double track the rail line!
Part of the problem is to make Buses more viable, means more restrictions (and enforcement) on other vehicles.listermint wrote: »This is core to the problem. Public has to be easier.
Let's say for example you could drive to a free parking location on the edge of the larger towns in Wicklow. And wait in the car or sit at a sheltered closed off mini depo with bus countdown timer on it.
Would you take that option.
Because for my money it would be an absolute minor investment to dot such things up and down the country in comparison to the hundreds of millions lost on traffic jam delays and accidents.
Things don't progress in this state, as people want it both ways. For many it ultimately boils down to them wanting other people on public transport rather than themselves, so they have a handier drive. On this thread, we've had faux concern for cyclists, at the prospect of the existing hard shoulder being turned into a bus lane!0 -
I think the poster who mentioned damage done was referring to the fact they stopped the road being done effectively and properly with the protest and now traffic is stopped or moving slowly causing extra carbon omissions.
Don't think anybody was suggesting the ropes were hurting the trees :pac:
the only change that was made to the road design through GotD was the hard-shoulders and median were narrowed resulting a lower speed limit on the bend. But IIRC that decision was made before the eco-warriors moved in so they ultimately had no effect.
The N11 is pretty much at capacity (4K vehicles per hour) during peak times. Closing the minor junctions will smooth traffic flow somewhat, but it won't make a huge difference.0 -
the only change that was made to the road design through GotD was the hard-shoulders and median were narrowed resulting a lower speed limit on the bend. But IIRC that decision was made before the eco-warriors moved in so they ultimately had no effect.
That's correct, eco protests only started after design was signed off and approved.0 -
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punisher5112 wrote: »Look at all the US states where they actually had highway running through or around cities but not only that they were on stilts.....
Now they are in a few removing these as I will agree they look terrible but they worked but now are going under ground.
This is something that really needs to be thought about and especially major pinch points.
Imagine bray, kilmac and the glen all bypassed under ground....
No impact to the surrounding areas or more trees lost.
Yes yes I know cost but still how can other countries pull it off.
I’d prefer the tunnelling or cut-and-cover option as well – when finished it would have less impact on the environment and such. But it would probably be even more expensive then you might think - the underlying rock in that region is quartzite which is harder than granite. So tunnelling would be too difficult and expensive which might mean a cut and cover option. But I suspect lots of dynamite would be needed for that particular option which might work for the glen of the downs, but probably not in Kilmac village unless they factored in a huge budget for window pane replacements.0 -
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Part of the problem is to make Buses more viable, means more restrictions (and enforcement) on other vehicles.
Things don't progress in this state, as people want it both ways. For many it ultimately boils down to them wanting other people on public transport rather than themselves, so they have a handier drive. On this thread, we've had faux concern for cyclists, at the prospect of the existing hard shoulder being turned into a bus lane!
Not necessarily, most people just want to get to and from work as quickly as possible. You can't measure commuting times by the time it takes a bus to get from stop to stop, it's how long it takes the commuter door to door. With the new housing estates being built on the edge of towns, it is giving people 20-30 walks to public transport, and maybe the same at the other end.
If for example, they double-tracked the line and brought it to Arklow, it wouldn't make a huge difference as the Dart from Greystones to town takes an hour as it is. Building a bus lane will get the busses to town quicker, but if you have a 20 minute walk on either end, the car will win every time. We need park and rides, currently, there is one at The Beehive, but if you live in Wicklow or Rathnew, you have to drive for 5-10 minutes the wrong direction, then a 5-minute walk to the bus stop which is placed at a junction on the motorway, and has no shelter. They also need to make these facilities free, not charging €4 a day, over a year that adds up to about a grand - after-tax.0 -
At the end of the day something has to give, every option is going to cost money and leave a scar on the landscape. The reality is nearly every new house/apartment between Bray and Gorey will have 2 cars, the vast majority commuting back to Dublin each day. Either the road is widened for a 3rd lane to accommodate bus lanes and express travel times or the train line is double tracked between Bray and Wicklow or even as far as the m11 at Rathnew to meet up with a park & ride.
But and this is important, every transport option from Bray northwards needs investment too. The Dart, Luas, buses and roads are at capacity too. They can't keep 'solving' the housing crisis by building houses and expanding every town and village along the n11 corridor without creating employment opportunities or proper infrastructure to get back to the city.0 -
But and this is important, every transport option from Bray northwards needs investment too. The Dart, Luas, buses and roads are at capacity too. They can't keep 'solving' the housing crisis by building houses and expanding every town and village along the n11 corridor without creating employment opportunities or proper infrastructure to get back to the city.
Exactly, try getting on a Dublin Bus, Luas, or Dart at rush hour, if you are on the southside of town, half them are full. It isn't unusual to wait 20 mins to get on a Dublin Bus.
If it is an unpleasant experience, people won't leave their cars.0 -
At the end of the day something has to give, every option is going to cost money and leave a scar on the landscape. The reality is nearly every new house/apartment between Bray and Gorey will have 2 cars, the vast majority commuting back to Dublin each day. Either the road is widened for a 3rd lane to accommodate bus lanes and express travel times or the train line is double tracked between Bray and Wicklow or even as far as the m11 at Rathnew to meet up with a park & ride.
But and this is important, every transport option from Bray northwards needs investment too. The Dart, Luas, buses and roads are at capacity too. They can't keep 'solving' the housing crisis by building houses and expanding every town and village along the n11 corridor without creating employment opportunities or proper infrastructure to get back to the city.
But the Project Brief, Feasibility Study and Road Safety Impact Statement all say that the problem on this stretch of the N11 is caused by the combination of different traffic types - commuters, local, long distance, commercial - and that the only solution is to split the mainline and local traffic.
Widening the road to add more buses to the existing traffic will compound the problem.0 -
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But the Project Brief, Feasibility Study and Road Safety Impact Statement all say that the problem on this stretch of the N11 is caused by the combination of different traffic types - commuters, local, long distance, commercial - and that the only solution is to split the mainline and local traffic.
Widening the road to add more buses to the existing traffic will compound the problem.
Sorry, yes you're right. I was being a bit lazy in my description. Ultimately an offline route and bus and local traffic on existing road would be preferable. What I was trying to say was, no matter which option they go with, a widening project, an offline route or double tracked trainline, all options will cost money, lead to opposition and destroy habitats.
My point was really that they can't keep granting permission to developments without addressing the urgent need for transport infrastructure.0 -
Sorry, yes you're right. I was being a bit lazy in my description. Ultimately an offline route and bus and local traffic on existing road would be preferable. What I was trying to say was, no matter which option they go with, a widening project, an offline route or double tracked trainline, all options will cost money, lead to opposition and destroy habitats.
My point was really that they can't keep granting permission to developments without addressing the urgent need for transport infrastructure.
We are in complete agreement then! Apologies, maybe I am too quick to jump on the suggestion that all that is needed is a bus lane!
Just frustrated by spending hundreds of thousands on consultants - i.e Arup - to identify the problem and find a solution, and then ignoring their findings:A key problem is that the existing N11/M11 route is the dominant artery connecting the south east to Dublin and as such, serves a multitude of journey types and modes. Security of road users improves once there is a separation of and separate provision for the various types of road users, i.e. strategic traffic, commercial traffic, commuters, public transport, cyclists and pedestrians.The absence of a properly functioning supporting network of regional and local roads will have a major impact on the feasibility of options for appraisal during phase 2. The regional and local road network surrounding the N11/M11 corridor is not sufficiently capable of supporting local access by providing alternative route options for short trips.
From Arup's Feasibility Study. https://n11m11.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/265455-ARUP-GEN-XX-RP-ZM-0003-Issue-4.pdf
The only solution that solves those two problems is to separate the various types of road users by building an offline motorway for mainline traffic and use the existing N11 in that area for local traffic and public transport.
I get that there might be no public money or support with which to build a new motorway but then the answer is to do nothing, and accept the situation as is.
Absolute madness to spend a load of public money on a solution that expressly contradicts the findings of the experts.0 -
At the end of the day something has to give, every option is going to cost money and leave a scar on the landscape. The reality is nearly every new house/apartment between Bray and Gorey will have 2 cars, the vast majority commuting back to Dublin each day. Either the road is widened for a 3rd lane to accommodate bus lanes and express travel times or the train line is double tracked between Bray and Wicklow or even as far as the m11 at Rathnew to meet up with a park & ride.
But and this is important, every transport option from Bray northwards needs investment too. The Dart, Luas, buses and roads are at capacity too. They can't keep 'solving' the housing crisis by building houses and expanding every town and village along the n11 corridor without creating employment opportunities or proper infrastructure to get back to the city.
Anybody thinking double tracking the rail line is a silver bullet should read the 2 articles below.
As prundo said above getting people onto public transport south of Bray would need to be step one of a much wider improvement scheme for it to work.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-rail-asking-dart-users-to-stagger-morning-journeys-1.4026704
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/the-problem-with-the-luas-is-everybody-wants-to-get-on-1.37292980 -
Correct.If they were going to tunnel, the only logical tunnel would be through Bray Head to double track the rail line!
I have to ask, do you actually live in Ireland? Have you taken a peak hour train or tram into Dublin any time in the past 5 years?Part of the problem is to make Buses more viable, means more restrictions (and enforcement) on other vehicles.
Things don't progress in this state, as people want it both ways. For many it ultimately boils down to them wanting other people on public transport rather than themselves, so they have a handier drive. On this thread, we've had faux concern for cyclists, at the prospect of the existing hard shoulder being turned into a bus lane!
This idea that people have to be bludgeoned into using public transport because everyone wants to drive everywhere might apply in Los Angeles, but anyone who lives or has lived near Dublin recently knows that this is not true. People are doing a fine job bludgeoning themselves into overcrowded trains and trams. Our roads and public transport options are both underdeveloped.
Your claim can be proven false on a prima facie basis by simply taking a train/tram in Dublin. You cannot in good faith claim that motorists are the problem while trains and trams are either nonexistent or rammed with overcrowding.
In addition, providing good public transport (which we do not have) still requires Intercity motorways for long distance private travel and road freight. Case in point - the Netherlands. It's true that cyclists are everywhere in the Netherlands, Amsterdam etc, and that they have extensive metro and tram systems in most of their cities. But they still have people who need to drive regionally and lots of freight moving by road. So they still need extensive motorway networks.0 -
Hadn't noticed the reference to 'faux concern for cyclists' earlier. It certianly isn't the case, I would have very serious issue with a simple lets turn hard shoulders into bus lanes solution to this upgrade. A lot of commuting and leisure cyclists currently use the road so anything that effects their safety needs to be addressed correctly.0
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It most certainly does, and I am a regular leisure and commuting cyclist that actually uses the N11!Hadn't noticed the reference to 'faux concern for cyclists' earlier. It certianly isn't the case, I would have very serious issue with a simple lets turn hard shoulders into bus lanes solution to this upgrade. A lot of commuting and leisure cyclists currently use the road so anything that effects their safety needs to be addressed correctly.
It was faux concern because it was just being used as an excuse against greater bus provision, not for the provision of cyclists.0 -
Maybe it wasn't aimed me, but if the option to solve the grid lock was to turn hard shoulders into bus lanes with no provision for the safety of cyclists I'd rather they left it as is. And saying cyclists can use bus lanes isn't an option, that may work in cities and towns with 50kph limits but not where the limit would be higher.
I still maintain that the best option in the long run is a new offline 2 lane (possibly 3 lane to junction 9)motorway with the old route being upgraded to provide local transport, bus routes and segregated cycle lanes.
Anything else is simply sticking a plaster on top of previously badly applied plasters.0 -
I still maintain that the best option in the long run is a new offline 2 lane (possibly 3 lane to junction 9)motorway with the old route being upgraded to provide local transport, bus routes and segregated cycle lanes.
Anything else is simply sticking a plaster on top of previously badly applied plasters.
That sounds great but what do we do for the next 10 years before the new road opens? Just let the problem fester without so much as a plaster? This is why the concern for cyclists is considered faux, the goal is to accommodate drivers with a new road and throw cyclists and public transport the scraps that are the existing road (which will remain totally inadequate as spending the required money on it won't be justified when hundreds of millions are being spent on a new road).
Bus lanes north of Kilmac, accesses closed and motorway designation extended 3km south is the only short term solution. It can also be a long term solution along with a policy of promoting switching from private to public transport. Saying a new road solves all the problems doesn't recognise the reality of how long it will take to deliver said road.0 -
Well to be honest, I'd rather cyclist provision and advocacy was left to cyclists - there's a national body, significant local clubs both in Wicklow and South Dublin, National and Dublin groups that could all advise.Maybe it wasn't aimed me, but if the option to solve the grid lock was to turn hard shoulders into bus lanes with no provision for the safety of cyclists I'd rather they left it as is. And saying cyclists can use bus lanes isn't an option, that may work in cities and towns with 50kph limits but not where the limit would be higher.
I still maintain that the best option in the long run is a new offline 2 lane (possibly 3 lane to junction 9)motorway with the old route being upgraded to provide local transport, bus routes and segregated cycle lanes.
Anything else is simply sticking a plaster on top of previously badly applied plasters.
Enforced bus lanes with only buses and cyclists, maybe with a lower limit (which would still be quicker for buses than now). Or the current mess of private cars chancing their arm on hard shoulders, illegally junction surfing local access roads (which could already provide "safer" routes for cyclists)*, non enforcement of hatch markings just off the top of my head.
This isn't aimed directly at you, and is more a wider point... Cyclist safety only seems to care to most motorists in terms of infrastructure when it's an excuse against something they don't want. Bus Lanes, higher capacity, more frequent, park and rides all remove the excuse to not get out cars.
*between these roads, you'd be looking a low impact greenway through the glen of the downs to get to kilmac. There has previously been a proposed kilmac to bray greenway, which is not included in this or the relief road plans.0 -
I understand that it will take years, but I still maintain that it needs to be done right once and for all. There's no point designing a fudge of a bus lane with a stapled on cycle path thats at the detriment of the safety of cyclists. And I don't think its wrong to want to have a situation where mainline inter urban traffic is segregated from both local and public transport and cyclists. Its not a case of pitting one against another its about designing a project that accommodates all.0
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Well to be honest, I'd rather cyclist provision and advocacy was left to cyclists - there's a national body, significant local clubs both in Wicklow and South Dublin, National and Dublin groups that could all advise.
Enforced bus lanes with only buses and cyclists, maybe with a lower limit (which would still be quicker for buses than now). Or the current mess of private cars chancing their arm on hard shoulders, illegally junction surfing local access roads (which could already provide "safer" routes for cyclists)*, non enforcement of hatch markings just off the top of my head.
This isn't aimed directly at you, and is more a wider point... Cyclist safety only seems to care to most motorists in terms of infrastructure when it's an excuse against something they don't want. Bus Lanes, higher capacity, more frequent, park and rides all remove the excuse to not get out cars.
*between these roads, you'd be looking a low impact greenway through the glen of the downs to get to kilmac. There has previously been a proposed kilmac to bray greenway, which is not included in this or the relief road plans.
Out of interest what are the suggestion re this route from the local and national cycling interest groups.0 -
Out of interest what are the suggestion re this route from the local and national cycling interest groups.
I assume Bray Wheelers have made a submission, they certainly did for the changes at Kilmac and they are regular users of the existing N11 for club spins and evening training.
As a sometime cyclist (with a different club) I personally hate cycling on the N11 and will avoid it when I can, but it's a major artery through the county that's tricky to avoid without diverting to very indirect minor roads or busy R roads with no hard shoulder (such as the Bray-Greystones road).0 -
I assume Bray Wheelers have made a submission, they certainly did for the changes at Kilmac and they are regular users of the existing N11 for club spins and evening training.
As a sometime cyclist (with a different club) I personally hate cycling on the N11 and will avoid it when I can, but it's a major artery through the county that's tricky to avoid without diverting to very indirect minor roads or busy R roads with no hard shoulder (such as the Bray-Greystones road).
And surely prunudo's suggestion is the best possible solution to your problems with existing N11?0 -
And surely prunudo's suggestion is the best possible solution to your problems with existing N11?
If cycling provision was my only concern, sure. I also care about the landscape, environment, wildlife, heritage, sustainability and carbon emissions; so I don't want to see the area destroyed to facilitate car-based commuting; even if it makes cycling a little bit easier along part of the route.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »That sounds great but what do we do for the next 10 years before the new road opens? Just let the problem fester without so much as a plaster? This is why the concern for cyclists is considered faux, the goal is to accommodate drivers with a new road and throw cyclists and public transport the scraps that are the existing road (which will remain totally inadequate as spending the required money on it won't be justified when hundreds of millions are being spent on a new road).
Bus lanes north of Kilmac, accesses closed and motorway designation extended 3km south is the only short term solution. It can also be a long term solution along with a policy of promoting switching from private to public transport. Saying a new road solves all the problems doesn't recognise the reality of how long it will take to deliver said road.
This was the exact argument used for upgrading the N11 when they first talked about widening it from a single lane to a dual carriageway in the late 1980s.
In 2003 when the dual carriageway finally opened Seamus Brennan said:"I think we've shown that you're better to build a fresh road," he says. "It's clearly much more expensive to upgrade an existing one."
The NRA explained that it took longer and cost more because of the sensitive nature of the site but also:the contract was further complicated by the fact that the road, one of the busiest in the country with 30,000 cars passing through every day, had to be kept open. It meant the extra work took longer, and costs rose.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/road-from-hell-1.385011
Answering questions to a Dail Committee in 2004, Michael Tobin, then Chief Exec of the NRA said:Those who advocate the option of improving existing routes should contemplate the problems that arose in the case of the Glen of the Downs. Improving an existing road is not a realistic option in many cases, because it involves difficulties such as those I have mentioned.
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_environment_and_local_government/2004-06-01/2/0 -
If cycling provision was my only concern, sure. I also care about the landscape, environment, wildlife, heritage, sustainability and carbon emissions; so I don't want to see the area destroyed to facilitate car-based commuting; even if it makes cycling a little bit easier along part of the route.
And believe it or not I also care about those things. I'd love for the area I've grown up in and lived for 40 odd years was the way it used to be but due to the planning decisions made by both Wicklow and Wexford coco we now face the situation we find ourselves in.
I don't particularly want to see more countryside cut through with roads but I have to be pragmatic about it. If designed right I think an offline mainline with original road improvements is the best long term option.
People mention double tracking as a forgone conclusion but given the presence of the bird sanctuary near Newcastle I don't think an upgrade will be without its detractors.
All I know is that something needs to be done but I suppose in 3 weeks time we'll get an idea of what possible direction it will be.0 -
Haven't been asked to input, as far as I'm aware. Bray Wheelers have made submissions on both this, and the relief road, offering to discuss options/ assistance from (suitably qualified) members, with no response as far as I'm aware. Car is King in this state.Out of interest what are the suggestion re this route from the local and national cycling interest groups.0 -
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1) Yes.I re-iterate my two questions above.
1) Do you actually live in Ireland?
2) Have you taken, or attempted to take, any Luas tram, DART or short-haul commuter train into Dublin city for a time between 8 and 9 AM, at any time in the past 5 years?
2) 2 out of 3 in the last 5 days.
I live in what could be described on the N11 corridor. I've been commuting into the city for circa 18 years. It is predominantly by car, as I have flexible working arrangements, but when I've had to be 9-5, I park and ride for the dart/ commuter train or park and cycle. I recognise I'm part of the problem, but also recognise more road isn't the solution. I'd love to leave the car behind, as being part of a traffic jam is zero fun, way less fun than public transport or the bike, even if they sometimes take longer.0 -
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Then you should know as well as I do, from having the same misfortune, that there is no shortage of Irish people trying to crowbar themselves onto overcrowded (more like rammed) trains and trams trying to get into the city. Thusly, your claim that "the car is king" and "Irish people just want public transport for everyone else" can be proven false on a prima facie basis.1) Yes.
2) 2 out of 3 in the last 5 days.
You are correct in that "more road" is not the solution to commuting problems - the same can only truly be solved with more public transport in any large city, however there are reasons other than commuting to build intercity and regional motorways.0
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