M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

Pete_Cavan

KrisW1001 wrote: »

The tunnel adds capacity through Glen of the Downs, and allows much better public transport provision for the bypassed route.

The queues at Bray are caused by car commuters (usually 1 person per vehicle) originating in Bray itself. This problem should be dealt with by greater public transport provision to and from Bray, not an endless buildout to accommodate peak-time volumes that will eventually just dump traffic congestion into Dublin city itself. There are (very) long term plans for the Luas/Dublin Metro to serve Bray: a good interim would be to build a Bus Rapid Transport system quickly on that reserved corridor (the Metro will run on the surface here, I believe).

I favour the parallel route, but it would be very, very costly to construct the Cyan option on surface: this is a wealthy part of the country, and you can expect multiple legal actions against anything that would spoil their expensive views. However, more capacity is needed, if only to provide a higher quality public transport corridor.

Capacity through the Glen means little, you could have 10 lanes there but if traffic there will still just be joining the same tailbacks further north. You can widen the wide end of the funnel but if the narrow end stays the same, there is no additional throughput.

The queues at Bray are not just caused by car commuters originating in Bray itself, every car there is part of the problem regardless of where it originated from. The plan needs to reduce traffic from everywhere by providing viable alternatives, simply reducing Bray traffic will just see more cars from elsewhere take their place.

No matter how costly a surface road would be, a tunnel will be multiples more expensive. A tunnel is also not plain sailing from an objector/environmental pov, it would still need several hundred metres of a portal.

KrisW1001

Let me put it this way. If you halved the traffic volumes north of Bray, you would still have a capacity and safety issue through Glen of the Downs. That is why an upgrade there is required.

There are two separate problems here: 1. an under-capacity route segment on the N11 that goes through a conservation area. 2. too many commuters on the M11 into Dublin. I don't expect one solution to fix two problems.

This project is to fix problem 1. Fixing Dublin's overdependence on car commuting is a bigger project, but doing it still won't solve the issues in the Glen of the Downs, and there will be always commuter traffic at peak times. I'm not talking about getting everyone out of their cars onto buses: a 25% reduction in vehicles on the road would remove the congestion (and variable speed limits would also increase throughput and reduce the number of standstills). I'm pretty sure a quarter of people stuck in those queues would take the option of a bus or light-rail journey if it was frequent and reliable.

Sam Russell

Last October (before Covid) I was surprised at the traffic when I drove south from Dublin to Wexford leaving Dublin at 6 am.

Now I do not get up that early, and passing Windgates along the N11 that the traffic travelling north was at a standstill at 7 am. I never knew that the traffic was that heavy that early.

Are people leaving that early to get to the traffic jam early, or is this unusual?

I saw one bus going north, so that might be a reason - near absence of PT.

More roads does not fix this problem. Currently, driving round Dublin, traffic, despite Covid (or because of Covid) the traffic is worse than this time last year - and at all times of day.

Macy0161

Surely the solution is to really drive remote working, given the experience of this year. Tax breaks for companies supporting remote/ hub working, taxing companies (rather than commuters) for parking spaces.

donvito99 wrote: »

The level crossings between Lansdowne Rd and Merrion Gates are more of a factor on frequency I'd say.

It's rail capacity around Connolly, iirc.

Cookiemunster

Macy0161 wrote: »

Surely the solution is to really drive remote working, given the experience of this year. Tax breaks for companies supporting remote/ hub working, taxing companies (rather than commuters) for parking spaces.


It's rail capacity around Connolly, iirc.

The majority of the work force cannot work from home, so remote working is not really a solution. What you saw in March/April/May was everything closed except for essential services and the roads were dead.

But during the recent level 5 restrictions traffic levels only dropped by 15% because manufacturing businesses, construction, schools etc, where people have to travel, were still open.

Macy0161

Cookiemunster wrote: »

But during the recent level 5 restrictions traffic levels only dropped by 15% because manufacturing businesses, construction, schools etc, where people have to travel, were still open.

Genuine question, how's the glen been at the 15% reduction? I haven't heard it on the traffic reports.

The 85% includes people that could be remote too, but managers/ firms being too old school to accept it. Or high opinions of how essential it is for people to be in the office.

Sam Russell

A lot of these issues are tipping point questions. Once traffic goes above a certain level, traffic begins to bunch and then stop. The stopped vehicles then cause stationary a queue and if you are in one, you wonder what caused it as there appears to be no reason when it clears.

If there is variable speed limits, and they are obeyed, then a higher level of traffic is possible.

I heard of a USA study that suggested a speed of 27 mph was optimum for a particular tunnel in Washington DC. As speed increases, the vehicles spread out with more space between them, and as it reduces, the flow reduces. The 27 mph is apparently the sweet spot.

The UK uses the variable speed approach on the M25.

Reuben1210

Sam Russell wrote: »

Last October (before Covid) I was surprised at the traffic when I drove south from Dublin to Wexford leaving Dublin at 6 am.

Now I do not get up that early, and passing Windgates along the N11 that the traffic travelling north was at a standstill at 7 am. I never knew that the traffic was that heavy that early.

Are people leaving that early to get to the traffic jam early, or is this unusual?

I saw one bus going north, so that might be a reason - near absence of PT.

More roads does not fix this problem. Currently, driving round Dublin, traffic, despite Covid (or because of Covid) the traffic is worse than this time last year - and at all times of day.

No unfortunately this is normal rush hour traffic for the N11/M11

Sam Russell

Reuben1210 wrote: »

No unfortunately this is normal rush hour traffic for the N11/M11

I was just surprised that the 'rush' started so early so far out.

punisher5112

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was just surprised that the 'rush' started so early so far out.

Last recession it definitely got quieter but it's been like this quite a number of years, it's only now going to get worse, more trucks too.

Sam Russell

punisher5112 wrote: »

Last recession it definitely got quieter but it's been like this quite a number of years, it's only now going to get worse, more trucks too.

No motorway or roadway improvement will solve that.

We need PT, and specifically, the metro.

Steve012

punisher5112 wrote: »

Last recession it definitely got quieter but it's been like this quite a number of years, it's only now going to get worse, more trucks too.

I remember that, N11 southbound had free'd up at Bray, for once.

Am I wrong or is "part" of this road expansion suppose to do with a brexit thing, fast track route, from The North to Rosslare ? I've heard this a few times.

spacetweek

Dunno about the North but Rosslare-Dublin will be getting busier with the Brexit bypass. Freight to Ireland will probably come straight from France in future so south-facing ports become more important.

Pete_Cavan

I think routing HGVs to Rosslare via the M9 and N25 is a more realistic prospect. The northern end of the N11 has so many issues, online upgrades aren't going to solve all of them and offline build isn't practical for a number of reasons. There seems to be a mindset here that the N11 is the only possible route to Wexford.

The M9 has huge spare capacity which could be used. Extending the western end of the New Ross bypass to meet the M9 south of Mullinavat would mean little extra distance between Rosslare and west Dublin. Very little freight goes directly to Dublin city. That is where most of the factories and distribution centres are located, plus it serves a lot of the rest of the country without using the M50. The N81 Hollywood - Tallaght project could be revived but as an N/M9 extension from south of Kilcullen, a project required anyway. That would also relieve the N7 of M9 traffic which would be another benefit.

prunudo

I take it you're not a transport manager, unless you're coming from the midlands, it makes much more sense for freight from Dublin to use the n11.

Pete_Cavan

prunudo wrote: »

I take it you're not a transport manager, unless you're coming from the midlands, it makes much more sense for freight from Dublin to use the n11.

Like I said, the distance to west Dublin isn't that much extra and using a route with lots of unutilised capacity would have advantages over a route that is way over capacity for extended periods.

josip

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I think routing HGVs to Rosslare via the M9 and N25 is a more realistic prospect. The northern end of the N11 has so many issues, online upgrades aren't going to solve all of them and offline build isn't practical for a number of reasons. There seems to be a mindset here that the N11 is the only possible route to Wexford.

The M9 has huge spare capacity which could be used. Extending the western end of the New Ross bypass to meet the M9 south of Mullinavat would mean little extra distance between Rosslare and west Dublin. Very little freight goes directly to Dublin city. That is where most of the factories and distribution centres are located, plus it serves a lot of the rest of the country without using the M50. The N81 Hollywood - Tallaght project could be revived but as an N/M9 extension from south of Kilcullen, a project required anyway. That would also relieve the N7 of M9 traffic which would be another benefit.

I think an N25 - Mullinavat linkup is highly unlikely, more so after the Glenmore-Slieverue section of the the N25 gets upgraded.
Comparing those 2 routes for containers from Rosslare destined for the Western Industrial Estate for example shows:

1h 43m (160km) via the N/M11
2h 23m (225km) via the N25+M9 (A direct link from Ballyverneen to Mullinavat would reduce that by 12m)

I know which route the haulage logistics people would chose.


OT but is Rosslare really an alternative for any containers ultimately bound for Dublin?
Alexandra Basin is getting additional capacity and the channel is being deepened.
I don't think Rosslare is deep enough for MV Celine?
I can't see Rosslare ever being anything more than a regional port providing container services for the South East.

punisher5112

josip wrote: »

I think an N25 - Mullinavat linkup is highly unlikely, more so after the Glenmore-Slieverue section of the the N25 gets upgraded.
Comparing those 2 routes for containers from Rosslare destined for the Western Industrial Estate for example shows:

1h 43m (160km) via the N/M11
2h 23m (225km) via the N25+M9 (A direct link from Ballyverneen to Mullinavat would reduce that by 12m)

I know which route the haulage logistics people would chose.


OT but is Rosslare really an alternative for any containers ultimately bound for Dublin?
Alexandra Basin is getting additional capacity and the channel is being deepened.
I don't think Rosslare is deep enough for MV Celine?
I can't see Rosslare ever being anything more than a regional port providing container services for the South East.

Rail freight would solve a lot, run it off peak.

josip

punisher5112 wrote: »

Rail freight would solve a lot, run it off peak.

Do you mean overnight (midnight to 6)? Would there not be objections from residents along the line?


Or is there capacity in the Dublin rail network for freight trains through Pearse, Connolly and on out to Heuston during the day?

Pete_Cavan

josip wrote: »

I think an N25 - Mullinavat linkup is highly unlikely, more so after the Glenmore-Slieverue section of the the N25 gets upgraded.
Comparing those 2 routes for containers from Rosslare destined for the Western Industrial Estate for example shows:

1h 43m (160km) via the N/M11
2h 23m (225km) via the N25+M9 (A direct link from Ballyverneen to Mullinavat would reduce that by 12m)

I know which route the haulage logistics people would chose.


OT but is Rosslare really an alternative for any containers ultimately bound for Dublin?
Alexandra Basin is getting additional capacity and the channel is being deepened.
I don't think Rosslare is deep enough for MV Celine?
I can't see Rosslare ever being anything more than a regional port providing container services for the South East.

So with the N25 link, the journey time would only be about 25 minutes extra without traffic. That is for a journey to/from inside the M50, the distance and journey time for the M9 route becomes more favourable the further you move outside it. One route is majorly over capacity with few realistic options for increasing it, while the other has lots of spare capacity for most of the route and the N81 corridor could create more capacity on approach to Dublin.

The point is that I think we shouldn't be building Glenmore-Slieverue, joining the M9 further north serves journeys up the M9 and west on the N24 while Waterford remains only a short spin to the south. This allows REP serve a bigger area more effectively while also making the M9 a more attractiveroute to the Dublin region. Of course Dublin Port would continue to operate and take much of that which is destined for Dublin.

loyatemu

josip wrote: »

Do you mean overnight (midnight to 6)? Would there not be objections from residents along the line?


Or is there capacity in the Dublin rail network for freight trains through Pearse, Connolly and on out to Heuston during the day?

if you're going to overnight the freight, why not send it up the N11, it's empty at night.

(FWIW the old Anhydrous Ammonia trains used to barrel through Greystones at 3.30am)

Sam Russell

loyatemu wrote: »

if you're going to overnight the freight, why not send it up the N11, it's empty at night.

(FWIW the old Anhydrous Ammonia trains used to barrel through Greystones at 3.30am)

And noisily through Ballsbridge/Sandymount a bit earlier.

It always amused me that there were ten or so wagons of anhydrous ammonia followed by a single wagon of water. They took all the water out of the ammonia and shipped some of it separately.

punisher5112

I can't see how running trucks, drivers, wear and tear, insurance, test, fuel etc etc is cheaper then running a freight, well loaded freight at that....


Pity they never kept it up and sold off so much land and tore up tracks etc.....

Has to be so much better and safer.

prunudo

Bar a section from jn6 to jn10, the n11 is as good as motorway to Oilgate, which itself is due to part of a new Wexford bypass so will further improve the road to Rosslare. The aforementioned part of the n11 will and has to be upgraded in some form due to the ever increasing population of north Wicklow.
I don't see the point for a m9/m25 link road that isn't even on the cards just to justify trucks driving an extra 40 kms, or 25mins journey time.


Edit, just checking google maps, its 211km from Redcow to Rosslare via m9 and 161km from Redcow to Rosslare via m11. Thats a lot of extra diesel and time when restricted to 90kph.

KrisW1001

A link between M9 Mullinavat and N25 Glenmore would be unfeasibly expensive, as there's a decent sized mountain in the way. Even if it were possible, you'd still need the current upgrade of the existing N25 from Glenmore to Waterford to give access to the Port of Waterford.

N11 is the most direct route to Dublin from Rosslare, but mountains are again the reason why that traffic gets funnelled in to the N11 corridor when it reaches Dublin. Any road-based solution to this will be expensive as a result.

SeanW

punisher5112 wrote: »

I can't see how running trucks, drivers, wear and tear, insurance, test, fuel etc etc is cheaper then running a freight, well loaded freight at that....


Pity they never kept it up and sold off so much land and tore up tracks etc.....

Has to be so much better and safer.

Railfreight is best suited to large bulk loads travelling long distances. Irish freight tends to be lots and lots of small loads of various types going to all different places. We just don't have the level of heavy industry and long distances that would make a thriving railfreight market. Even if we did, we would still need a lot of road freight for distribution and movements to and from railheads and ports. For that reason, road freight must be considered when motorway plans are being proposed and/or drafted.

marno21

Environmental surveys to commence in March and conclude in October.

https://n11m11.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Bulletin-6-Environmental-Survey-Update-16.03.2021.pdf

Steve012

marno21 wrote: »

Environmental surveys to commence in March and conclude in October.

Yep I see that, I have bumped into land owners (who would lose out very much so with the updates to the road as I would too) they are convinced Kilmac and Glen of the downs wont be touched, as in no CP ?!?

Who knows I have meet with a joint meeting of WCC and Arup twice, I can read between the lines they were always going for the red line.. the existing route to widen.

Feck it anyway always a thorn in the side until we know.

prunudo

I was sure they had already done an environmental survey last year. Definitely was talking to someone who said they were doing a survey on behave of Arup.

hometruths

prunudo wrote: »

I was sure they had already done an environmental survey last year. Definitely was talking to someone who said they were doing a survey on behave of Arup.

I think that was a topographical survey.