Coaches Uncomfortable for Long Journeys

During the week, I took Day Return trip with Bus Eireann (8 hours traveling altogether) and I was a broken man after it. Never again !!

The coaches were modern (an 07 one way and 12 on the return), but extremely uncomfortable I thought. Does anyone find this? I was surprised at how uncomfortable it was.


The seats are thin, therefore have little cushioning meaning the back of the seat is quite hard. And every bump on the road was felt up through the seat and heard with every rattle - rattles seemed to come from the ceiling or something.

The seats are quite upright and have short, horizontal cushions - not ideal for sitting in for a long time.

Then, the seatbelts (over the shoulder) are very 'tense' or something, pulling you further into the hard seat. Even pulling out the belt needed a strong arm to get it on and clipped in. Nothing like a regular car seat belt.

Bus Eireann advertise these as the alternative to the car but I'm not convinced for long journeys. Public Transport is fine around cities and that, I use Luas and Dublin Bus all the time when in Dublin no problem.

Dave0301

8 hours in a coach will take a toll no matter how good the coach is.

FortySeven

Very uncomfortable means of transport. There is no alternative to the car yet.

colm_mcm

8 hours in a car isn't great either!

FortySeven

colm_mcm wrote: »

8 hours in a car isn't great either!

I've driven to and from Poland without half the pain of a bus from Belfast to cork.

Saying that. If the roads were flat it would help. Too much pogo effect in Ireland.

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

8 hours in a car isn't great either!

Yeah, I know. I've done the same journey in the car as well, but the car is much faster!

But the car is still way, way more comfortable than the coach.

With the motorways and road improvements, I would have to say the car will my mode of travel anymore!! Which is a pity, because I do understand the merits of Public Transport in general (reduce congestion/pollution and all that). But it is not a bit comfortable!!

Having said that, I trains are fine for long distance. Just there are none in the North West!

AlekSmart

salonfire wrote: »

Yeah, I know. I've done the same journey in the car as well, but the car is much faster!

But the car is still way, way more comfortable than the coach.

With the motorways and road improvements, I would have to say the car will my mode of travel anymore!! Which is a pity, because I do understand the merits of Public Transport in general (reduce congestion/pollution and all that). But it is not a bit comfortable!!

Having said that, I trains are fine for long distance. Just there are none in the North West!

You're just in the wrong place,at the wrong time...transport yourself back to 1920....and take your pick !

https://twitter.com/RyanMcAleerUH/status/758737393729966081

:eek:

twill

Troops were transported via railway, hence the comprehensive rail service of 1920. Now the road network supports the car industry.

I don't travel long distance by bus but I've always found Bus Éireann vehicles to be quite comfortable. It could vary on the different routes. However, travelling that distance by public transport will always be exhausting, be it train, plane or bus. Cars are different since you can set your own timetable, adjust the journey for your comfort, and travel directly from A to B.

Mrs OBumble

BE's very newest coaches are awful: small seat, little legroom - they really are like planes.

That said, I wouldn't want to do 8+ hours in a coach - or a train either.

devnull

Don't confusion coach travel in general with Bus Eireann, some of the larger privates have better vehicles (although that is not always the case, it is in a lot off cases)

Squall Leonhart

Slightly off topic, but related..

I was on a bus trip with BE lately, must have been 30 people on the bus. I was first on, sat up front. Including myself there were TWO people who actually paid a fare. Everyone else flashed a travel pass.

How can you justify upgrading to more luxury models of bus when feck all people are paying to use the service.

Sam Kade

Dave0301 wrote: »

8 hours in a coach will take a toll no matter how good the coach is.

colm_mcm wrote: »

8 hours in a car isn't great either!

8 hours return trip, 4 hours each way, surely he got to stretch his legs a bit inbetween. Unless he's a pensioner I can't see a problem.

Sam Kade

Sam Kade wrote: »

8 hours return trip, 4 hours each way, surely he got to stretch his legs a bit inbetween. Unless he's a pensioner I can't see a problem.

Yeah, I was out and about for a few hours during the day alright. 8 hours traveling in total that day I meant.

Not a pensioner, but jesus I felt like one getting off when I came home again!!

Del.Monte

twill wrote: »

Troops were transported via railway, hence the comprehensive rail service of 1920. Now the road network supports the car industry.

I don't travel long distance by bus but I've always found Bus Éireann vehicles to be quite comfortable. It could vary on the different routes. However, travelling that distance by public transport will always be exhausting, be it train, plane or bus. Cars are different since you can set your own timetable, adjust the journey for your comfort, and travel directly from A to B.

What a load of rubbish, you need to read-up on railway history before posting about it. Irish railways, in common with most others, were privately built and were not influenced by the requirements of the military. Roads on the other hand: http://www.glendalough.connect.ie/pages/articles/militaryroad/militaryroad.html

foggy_lad

Squall Leonhart wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but related..

I was on a bus trip with BE lately, must have been 30 people on the bus. I was first on, sat up front. Including myself there were TWO people who actually paid a fare. Everyone else flashed a travel pass.

How can you justify upgrading to more luxury models of bus when feck all people are paying to use the service.

I don't wish to be drawn into an off topic discussion on free travel but unless you were sitting on the steering wheel or the drivers lap it would be difficult to distinguish between leap cards, online tickets or taxsaver cards and free travel cards/passes being presented.

Was the journey on a PSO route or Expressway? were you sat behind the driver or on the door side? window or aisle seat? was it peak time or off peak? When you say two people paid a fare you mean that two paid CASH right? that means everyone else paid using some other means like online tickets, tax/travel saver tickets, rambler tickets, free travel passes, group travel tickets, leap cards etc etc.

Squall Leonhart

No, nobody paid cash, myself included. I had a print from buying ticket online.

People were literally stepping on the bus , flashing a pass without breaking stride, which driver had half a second to see, whereas he carefully read my ticket and another passenger's ticket.

I was front passenger side, and it was a bus from Wexford to Dublin.

loyatemu

twill wrote: »

Troops cattle were transported via railway, hence the comprehensive rail service of 1920. Now the road network supports the car industry.

also, a trip from (say) Navan to Dingle on the 1930s rail network would not necessarily have been the height of comfort either.

foggy_lad

Squall Leonhart wrote: »

No, nobody paid cash, myself included. I had a print from buying ticket online.

People were literally stepping on the bus , flashing a pass without breaking stride, which driver had half a second to see, whereas he carefully read my ticket and another passenger's ticket.

I was front passenger side, and it was a bus from Wexford to Dublin.

There are a lot of regular commuters on the Dub-Wexford route (02) who would be known to many of the drivers and who will only need to flash their travelsaver ticket as they hop onto the bus. Drivers must read the online tickets as they must get the MAC number off the printout and use it to print your ticket. Is it possible that some of the people you saw were not free travel pass holders?


AS far as coaches go, I have found that the latest thick seats on the new i6 fleet are very nice but there is very restricted legroom and passenger space because the room is taken up by the seats. the older i6 coaches had seats more like the older SP type and have much more space and legroom while being just as comfortable as the newer seats. I have not been on the new double decker Navan superbus yet so can't comment but a friend said the legroom was great and seats were very luxurious.

twill

Del.Monte wrote: »

What a load of rubbish, you need to read-up on railway history before posting about it. Irish railways, in common with most others, were privately built and were not influenced by the requirements of the military. Roads on the other hand: http://www.glendalough.connect.ie/pages/articles/militaryroad/militaryroad.html

Railways were controlled by acts of parliament which required, from the first, that they carry military troops. There were other economic influences at play, but I very much doubt that the rail network would have been as extensive as it was were it not for regular military traffic.

Grandeeod

twill wrote: »

Railways were controlled by acts of parliament which required, from the first, that they carry military troops. There were other economic influences at play, but I very much doubt that the rail network would have been as extensive as it was were it not for regular military traffic.

We are a bit OT, but you are wrong. Sorry. I'm being polite.

XPS_Zero

As to the travel passes I've had one ever since my cancer started to drag on and I changed from illness to disability. At first a 23 year old guy that looks quite healthy and a regular gym user ensured they gave it a good look to ensure the photo matched (though it was taken at the peak of my illness and I look like crap, v diff to now, you can still tell its same person just about). You gotta keep in mind with advances in treating most illnesses now like high tech drugs people don't obviously look like somethings wrong with them as illness in many cases don't make you look as run down as years ago.
They'd also, in rails case, ask to see the actual chip card when checkin those grey tickets outside the short hop zone.

I use a few regular routes bus and rail and now they know me well enough they don't need to look, remember it's the same staff on same times every day nearly, many even DB drivers know their passengers to see.

Before I took medical leave when I was working PT in college seeing seemingly healthy people use them used to infuriate me, I had to make my own way unlike most without parental support even and as a student was banned from any DSP help even in emergencies if I needed a one off payment from the community officer. I ignorantly thought they dished them out casually to everyone on every welfare payment. My experience since has educated me a lot. You can only get them on carers, the pension or disability (which itself can't be got without a medically certified serious illness lasting a year or more which prevents you working). The raw number of them seems big but when you match it against the number of pensioners and see how little it costs the state it clears up the picture.

Personally I always take rail if I can. BEs new double deckers are quite comfortable, their ordinary coaches not so much but if you want discomfort try Translink Goldline, if taking the X1 or x2 check the legend on the timetable try to get a BE time. Goldline don't even turn the dam air conditioning on unless you ask them and the seats have ones knees embedded in the one in front of you, plus they've no double deckers on that route. If you're going to Newry or Belfast or Cork or Galway the train is waaaaay more comfortable.

Squall Leonhart

foggy_lad wrote:

Is it possible that some of the people you saw were not free travel pass holders?

I concede that it is absolutely possible

devnull

XPS_Zero wrote: »

If you're going to Newry or Belfast or Cork or Galway the train is waaaaay more comfortable.

There are other options rather than BE, Translink or the train to all of those places that generally are more comfortable and faster.

Not all of them can take the travel pass though.

XPS_Zero

devnull wrote: »

There are other options rather than BE, Translink or the train to all of those places that generally are more comfortable and faster.

Not all of them can take the travel pass though.

You can take Aircoach to Belfast. It's known as an "express" route but...nah not really. The X1 BE takes 2.25 the 705X takes 2.10, only a 15 min saving. The pull of Aircoach is more comfort and cheaper fare. The FT programme does not fund this route, and it doesn't really need to as FT users already have enough options on this route inc the v comfortable Enterprise train.

IMO it's a waste of money for the state to fund duplicate routes for the sake of more options. X1 and 705x are too similar for Aircoach to put this route in for FT. The Airport Express routes make sense as Dublin Bus has done a pathetic job connecting the south and west of the city with the airport. There was no reason AirLink could not have had routes covering what Aircoach/Airport Hopper and DublinCoach do now. Shows how little imagination they have.


Same with Cork Aircoach they may not take it but there's a fast train service and BE services in place.

The main pitch of GoBus and Citylink istowards categories other than those who are elderly or disabled like students and middle class workers. Even then GoBus does a senior discount.

The fastest Dublin-Belfast bus is the X2 which gets to Dublin airport/Belfast Europa in a remarkable 1.45 but does not proceed to Busaras as it's designed to take northern resident passengers flying into Or out of Dublin off the main X1 to lighten the load. All the X2s are Translink though. If you live near enough to the airport like Swords and can get a connecting Dublin Bus this service is ideal, skips Newry, Banbridge etc.

I also would say to coach drivers TURN ON YOUR DAM AIR CONDITIONING!!!!! Stop bragging about it in your ads then leaving it off!! Esp when there's no bloody Windows that open!!

devnull

XPS_Zero wrote: »

You can take Aircoach to Belfast. It's known as an "express" route but...nah not really. The X1 BE takes 2.25 the 705X takes 2.10, only a 15 min saving.

Strange logic you have there.

The Aircoach is the fastest bus service between the two cities and the 705X number was used way before BE and Translink even thought about using an X in their number for what is now known as the X1, they adopted the X1 number in response to Aircoach starting a true express service. Translink in particular continue to market X1 as an express service, so much to the point that at the Europa they don't even list the fact it makes stops en-route and it's announced as an express service, despite the fact it was

Translink and BE started heavily marketing their route, cut out a load of intermediate stops and started branding the slowest service between the two cities as an express in an attempt to try and paint it out to be something it was not. They only started doing this once the competition started to over real genuine improvements, they improved the services because they were forced to.

Same with Cork Aircoach they may not take it but there's a fast train service and BE services in place.[.quote]

The Aircoach service was released well before the BE direct services and was the first true direct service between the two cities.

BE then started heavily marketing the 8 cut out a load of intermediate stops, started branded the slowest services between the two cities as an express, in an attempt to paint it out to be something it was not. They only started doing this once the competition started to over real genuine improvements, they improved the services because they were forced to. Then the X8 was born, known as an express service despite the fact it is almost an hour slower.

Then BE and GoBus laucnhed a true direct route to compete with Aircoach, with was bore out of the fact that BE was getting hammered by Aircoach,.

The fastest Dublin-Belfast bus is the X2 which gets to Dublin airport/Belfast Europa in a remarkable 1.45 but does not proceed to Busaras as it's designed to take northern resident passengers flying into Or out of Dublin off the main X1 to lighten the load. All the X2s are Translink though. If you live near enough to the airport like Swords and can get a connecting Dublin Bus this service is ideal, skips Newry, Banbridge etc.

All of the Aircoach services skip out those stops and are direct, the fact is the only reason that the few BE/TL services are 5 minutes quicker is the fact that it doesn't serve the airport properly, just serving the Car Park bus stops rather than the actual terminals themselves.

Far as I am concerned there is a service on the Belfast Road and a service on the Cork route that are currently branded at expresses that should never be, at the end of the day it should be like this

Cork
8 - Cork
704X - Aircoach
707x - GoBE

Belfast
1 - BE/TL Stopper
1X - BE/TL Non Stop
705X - Aircoach Non Stop

The fact that the X8 on the Cork route is changing to the 8X from next month just shows you how stupid this is and that marketing comes before everything else. That is before you consider the stupidity of the fact that X2 is even used, since that refers it has some connection to BE route 2 which is a different route entirley.

XPS_Zero

Apologies for a long post but wanna make myself clear this time.

You are, as people on comment boards have a maddening tendency to do, countering points I didn't make. Since I clearly outlined the times I obviously never denied Aircoach was faster than X1, my point was a 15 min difference isn't mind blowing, and it's not enough of a variety in route or time to justify adding it to the FT scheme and if I was DSP I'd turn them down if they applied since that routes already well covered, if you are that desperate for those 15 min the Aircoach fares not that bad even on welfare income.

The word express is ill defined, to me it suggests two things:
•Point to point non stop
•Fast

On both the X1 doesn't qualify and shouldn't be allowed call itself an express. On the second Aircoach isn't that much faster.
I don't know if it had to do with our overly restrictive licensing in this area (oddly were fine having no serous rules for the financial sector that can crash the entire economy but we choke transport competition in regulations) maybe they're not allowed take the same route but say you need to go from Belfast to BusAras, the Aircoach will be 15 min faster.
Say you need to go Belfast to Dublin Airport.
705x does it in 2.20.
X2 even in those godawful Goldline coaches will do it in 1.45, and I've been on it, they really do it in the time suggested not even going mad speed or anything dodgy.

My point with the other cities isn't to dispute competition improving things, I'm well aware of the effect, my generation is ignorant of the fact that it used to take months to get a phone as a monopoly was in place. I already expressed amazement AirLink left giant gaping OBVIOUS holes in the market (airport-Dundrum, Airport-Killiney/Greystones, Airport-Tallaght, Airport-Lucan) that other companies filled. They also bizzarly exclude FT from Airlink because it's a commercial service ...but so is Airport Hopper and Aircoach and they take FT funding (which could stand a raise which will hopefully now happen as the new PSC smart cards show the real usage levels not what DSP disingenuously claims them to be).

My point was in relation to the FT pass, since BE has routes to those cities and IE has fast modern comfortable trains esp to Cork there's nobody loosing out I don't think it's a big deal I can't take DublinCoach or GoBus since I can take BE or IE.
There isn't an area I'm aware of with no CIE/RPA services just a private service that doesn't take the FT pass.

As to the numbering, PWC pointed this out to Dublin Bus in their Network Direct review, how 17/17a are not only on different sides of the city but in different universes where they run. Meanwhile 45/45a cross crossed each other. It's very confusing for visitors.

I also gotta say that while Aircoach do a great service and did far more for public transport than Ryanair supposedly did its MASSIVLY over hyped. Their coaches aren't THAT much more comfortable than BEs if you can't get the emergency exit seat or right up front (I like the leg room and I'm a child...I like to see the road go by in front) it's indistinguishable from any other coach. They make much of the friendly drivers thing but for every uber helpful driver I've seen a cranky bollox barking at customers just like BE or DS, most good some bad same as everywhere else.

They also have a huge problem with the Bray/Greystones+ route, every bus is 15-20 min late it seems because of two bottlenecks in Bray town and cc that route skipping Bray town or finding a way to loop around it and pick people up at the edge would be a big improvement.

BE might be slower but they have a public service mandate to serve unprofitable routes just like IE does.

I hate most coaches and avoid them if I can, my recommendation to everyone would be to get the train if you can. If you're going to Belfast for example you can have a really uncomfortable 2.5 hour trip your knees squished back or you can take the train, gaining you:
•More leg room
•More comfortable seats
•A table for your laptops, tablets etc which only BE double deckers have (and only two on board) and non existent on Goldljne or Aircoach
•You can have a meal, a full breakfast or a club sandwich or tea/coffe
•If you're sick and probe to nausea as I am there's no twists and sharp turns just nice smooth str8 line
•You can use the bathroom (non existNt on BE and worse on Aircoach...it SEEMS to be there but I it's locked up and out of use, worse than not being there.
•"but it doesn't leave me smack in the cc as the bus does", no problem your ticket includes a free bus transfer to Newry or Belfast cc and it's a v fast 5 min journey.

I'm going to Derry soon and I looked at the timetables it's 4 hours on the Bus and total 4 and a bit on the train, bus and rail stations face each other across the river. Since I know the 33 is a single decker (I prefer if I'm gonna get a bus the BE double deckers) and might be a horribly uncomfortable Goldline one. I can get a direct through ticket either way so for the sake of changing platforms in Belfast Central I'm gonna be way more comfortable on the train. The NI rail CAFs are not too dissimilar to our Commuter trains so journeys second half won't be as plush as the Enterprise but I'll still be more comfortable. 4 hours on a bus I think id go insane. Worst I've done is Belfast BE 2.5 hours and I was DYNG to get off by the end I practically shoved my way out my leg muscles were burning from being stuck in one position.

cgcsb

I'll normally always opt for the train myself. Recently I had to travel from Galway to Dublin at short notice and all the trains were booked solid.

So I got the go bus, I found that while the sockets, seats and toilet are much better than they were years ago, it's still no comparison with the train, much bumpier and much less space between you and the person sitting next to you. Overall a much less comfortable experience.

If I get the Cork-Dublin express train in the morning I can chill out, plenty of room and it only takes a shade over 2 hours, nearly an hour faster than the car. Similarly on a Friday I can get a train to Waterford in just under 2 hours in perfect comfort, much better than any coach or even driving.

Obviously not all the rail routes are the same quality, there needs to be a bit of money spent on the Galway and Belfast lines. Some double tracking between Portarlington and Athlone would help with the speed and frequency of the Galway service and a straighter route between Newry and Lisburn via Banbridge would really speed things up there.

Bray Head

I took an inter-city bus in Colombia years ago.

The seat was like a first-class airline one. Very well-cushioned and folded back a long way. It was an overnight trip and I slept well.

That said the railway infrastructure there is appalling and inter-city flights are expensive.

devnull

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I don't know if it had to do with our overly restrictive licensing in this area (oddly were fine having no serous rules for the financial sector that can crash the entire economy but we choke transport competition in regulations) maybe they're not allowed take the same route but say you need to go from Belfast to BusAras, the Aircoach will be 15 min faster.
Say you need to go Belfast to Dublin Airport. 705x does it in 2.20.

I'm not quite sure where you are getting your timings from but the 705X takes 1hr 50 mins from Belfast to Dublin Airport and 2hr 10 minutes to Dublin City center, not sure where you are getting the 2hr 20 minute figure from.

X2 even in those godawful Goldline coaches will do it in 1.45, and I've been on it, they really do it in the time suggested not even going mad speed or anything dodgy.

1hr 45 mins is really tough to do at most time of the day, unless you are going in the small hours. Google Maps tells me right now that it takes 1hr 34 minutes from Dublin Airport to Belfast with zero traffic and that is in a car and doesn't take into account tolls either. If you are driving and based on estimated normal traffic, Google Maps anticipates it will take 1hr 43 minutes. and that is on a good sunny good weather day outside of peak in a car.

But it's made easier for BE/TL by the fact they don't serve the airport very well, using the area near the coach park rather than serving the terminals, which is not great for people with luggage or who are disabled whilst Aircoach serve both the terminals. It takes a little longer to serve the terminals than it does the parking spots that are not outside them.

I also gotta say that while Aircoach do a great service and did far more for public transport than Ryanair supposedly did its MASSIVLY over hyped. Their coaches aren't THAT much more comfortable than BEs if you can't get the emergency exit seat or right up front (I like the leg room and I'm a child...I like to see the road go by in front) it's indistinguishable from any other coach.

It really depends on the kind of coach you are on, the more recent coaches, like those on the Cork run I agree are not having that much leg-room and are nothing special compared to other coaches ran by BE, even if they are slightly better, however the coaches on the Belfast run and doing some of the city runs have bigger leg-room than the train (and that is not just me saying it, it's a fact). The problem is that they didn't have toilets and that is why they were took off the Cork run, else they would still be there today.

They also have a huge problem with the Bray/Greystones+ route, every bus is 15-20 min late it seems because of two bottlenecks in Bray town and cc that route skipping Bray town or finding a way to loop around it and pick people up at the edge would be a big improvement.

All of that problem is caused by adding Ballsbridge to the route and requiring drivers who arrive at Greystones to go back out again straight away. Previously there was buffer time at Greystones which was removed when they added Ballsbridge which has removed the ability to recover any late running services from Dublin Airport to Greystones. This is their own fault.

BE might be slower but they have a public service mandate to serve unprofitable routes just like IE does.

Expressway is a fully commercial operation like Aircoach, Dublin Coach, Citylink, Gobus etc, it is entirely separate from the rest of BE that operates unprofitable routes because it is paid to do so. Other companies do not as they are not paid to do so.

If you're going to Belfast for example you can have a really uncomfortable 2.5 hour trip your knees squished back or you can take the train, gaining you:
•More leg room
•More comfortable seats

The Jonckheere SHV on Aircoach has more leg-room than the Belfast Train, unless you are at a table seat on the Belfast train. the leg-room is roughly the same as you can expect on an emergency exit seat on a plane if take away 2 inches or so. To give you an indicator of how roomy these coaches are, they seat 51 people and the same length coaches on BE/TL seat 63 people (3 rows of seats extra). So I think you'd notice the difference.

Again as I said not all coaches are the same, this can vary even within company and on a route by route basis.

•You can use the bathroom (non existNt on BE and worse on Aircoach...it SEEMS to be there but I it's locked up and out of use, worse than not being there.

They are locked out of use on all routes bar the Cork which they are active on, because the company does not have the facilities to service them at both ends of the route and as they are relatively short duration, it was decided that rather have a toilet break and take the coach out of service or stinking for one journey from the airport and another one back, to not use them at all.

I'm going to Derry soon and I looked at the timetables it's 4 hours on the Bus and total 4 and a bit on the train, bus and rail stations face each other across the river. Since I know the 33 is a single decker (I prefer if I'm gonna get a bus the BE double deckers) and might be a horribly uncomfortable Goldline one. I can get a direct through ticket either way so for the sake of changing platforms in Belfast Central I'm gonna be way more comfortable on the train. The NI rail CAFs are not too dissimilar to our Commuter trains so journeys second half won't be as plush as the Enterprise but I'll still be more comfortable. 4 hours on a bus I think id go insane. Worst I've done is Belfast BE 2.5 hours and I was DYNG to get off by the end I practically shoved my way out my leg muscles were burning from being stuck in one position.

No complaints with me, 63 seats on a 13.4m coach is too many. But the Aircoach vehicle on the same route decided to remove 3 rows of seats to fit 51 in a 13.4m coach to give people a lot of extra leg-room and it worked, the problem was that the coaches were ordered in 2008 and without toilets for a booming Dublin Airport market, which collapsed and became and expensive liability since they were way too big for the then shrunken demand for Airport routes and lacked toilets for inter cities. Then when the airport numbers did pick up the LUAS works made them a nightmare to navigate arrow the narrower still Dublin streets.

XPS_Zero

I'm getting it from their own timeline and my experiences i used that route a lot.
For example 01:00 X1 I it says gets to Belfast at 03:25




X2 didn't look doable to me either but I was on it one time and it made it like clockwork.

Your point about the terminals is valid but the stop is just a walk across through the parking building, across the zebra crossing into T1 not that far, sure if you need T2 having to go through the tunnel would be a pain.

I didn't know about the Ballsbridge thing. I know people living in Shankill who get the DART to the Killiney/Dalkey Aircoach instead as they consider the Greystones one too unreliable.

.
i concede your facts on seat space via Aircoach v BE I must take a closer look on AC next time. Nothing compares to Enterprise standard class for room never mind 1sr class, though the latter is expensive leg room..

]

devnull

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I'm getting it from their own timeline and my experiences i used that route a lot. For example 01:00 X1 I it says gets to Belfast at 03:25

And that certainly is possible, certainly at that time of the morning. Same as I can see 1hr 45 mins from Dublin Airport to Belfast being possible that time of the morning easily. During peak time though you'd struggle to do 1hr 45 mins in a car, let alone a bus. Also double deckers are limited to a lower speed than single decker coaches, which is why you won't see any on the X2.

I didn't know about the Ballsbridge thing. I know people living in Shankill who get the DART to the Killiney/Dalkey Aircoach instead as they consider the Greystones one too unreliable.

The way Dalkey works is at leaves Dublin Airport at for example 1.00pm and arrives Killiney at 2.05pm. Driver breaks and then works the 2.55pm back to the Airport, arriving at 3.55pm then drives the 4.00pm out of the airport back to Killiney. This means that the bus always leaves Killiney on time since it has time to recover the service at the outer terminus and always has done from the day the service was launched.

The Greystones since the addition of Ballsbridge, leaves Dublin Airport at say 1.30pm and arrives at Greystones at 3.00pm. Often it is then required to work the 3.00pm out of Greystones which means if the bus is even 5 minutes arriving late at Greystones it is already late heading back. It then gets caught in traffic in Ballsbridge which ads to the delays so normally it ends up running 10-20 minutes down.

The problem is they cut the dedicated Ballsbridge route that operated every half an hour and inserted all the stops that were not on other routes into the Greystones coach, but didn't want to increase the number of coaches or drivers they needed to operate the timetable which would have increased costs. So they basically cut the recovery time to almost zero which wasn't helped when they routed the service down the way they did in Ballsbridge into traffic blackspots at peak times.
.

i concede your facts on seat space via Aircoach v BE I must take a closer look on AC next time. Nothing compares to Enterprise standard class for room never mind 1sr class, though the latter is expensive leg room..

The Cork coaches and recent coaches are too tight for me, honestly they're nothing to write home about, but the older stuff is excellent, the most leg-room I have ever saw on a coach.

These are the coaches you are after:
http://aircoach.ie/sites/all/themes/gml/images/ourcoaches.jpg

Seats look like this but it's hard to show from a photo the leg-room, but you get the idea.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5585/14851143809_687cb6ef17_b.jpg

https://www.instagram.com/p/0FJ5hSBIb8/

The guy in the front of the last photo has his seat reclined, the seats are not normally diagonal like that.

XPS_Zero

My God you were right about the express thing. My mouth actually opened when I saw this. Go to the Goldline section of the Translink website.

They are now branding the Derry-Dublin service X3/X4....they're calling a 4 hour journey the longest route on the island with a total of 11 stops an express service. That is completely taking the piss.

Reminds me of how the 24 hour news stations overused and killed the BREAKING NEWS banner which famously died the day CNN literally had this on screen :BREAKING NEWS: Titanic sunk 100 years ago today. They'll render the notion of an express service meaningless

Boulevardier

By far the worst aspect of long coach journeys, for me at least, is when there is no on-board loo.

I usually do not need to actually use a loo, but I am far more relaxed when I know there is one available.

Coaches which have a loo can also do longer non-stop runs, because there is less need for rest stops.

BE are still pretty hopeless on this. I think I have lately seen 1 with WC, but I may have imagined it.

AngryLips

Agree with you, OP. I haven't travelled with BÉ in years but this last couple years they've been advertising themselves based on comfort and convenience. I recently took a return trip to Dundalk on an Expressway bus and was surprised to find that legroom was better on the older coach coming back than the newer coach going up. I don't get why they do this, they could really demonstrate the advantages of comfort over car and show that they are just as good as the train but instead opt for the revenue grabbing option of an extra row of seats ...that's 4 passengers covering most trips where busses aren't traveling full

devnull

XPS_Zero wrote: »

My God you were right about the express thing. My mouth actually opened when I saw this. Go to the Goldline section of the Translink website.

They are now branding the Derry-Dublin service X3/X4....they're calling a 4 hour journey the longest route on the island with a total of 11 stops an express service. That is completely taking the piss.

Reminds me of how the 24 hour news stations overused and killed the BREAKING NEWS banner which famously died the day CNN literally had this on screen :BREAKING NEWS: Titanic sunk 100 years ago today. They'll render the notion of an express service meaningless

There used to be an express non stop service operating in the summer between Dublin and Derry by Bus Eireann and Translink but that was discontinued. There was also supposed to be another operator starting up an express service to Derry but they hit issues starting the service and I doubt it will ever happen now.

AngryLips wrote: »

Agree with you, OP. I haven't travelled with BÉ in years but this last couple years they've been advertising themselves based on comfort and convenience. I recently took a return trip to Dundalk on an Expressway bus and was surprised to find that legroom was better on the older coach coming back than the newer coach going up. I don't get why they do this, they could really demonstrate the advantages of comfort over car and show that they are just as good as the train but instead opt for the revenue grabbing option of an extra row of seats ...that's 4 passengers covering most trips where busses aren't traveling full

The thing with BE is it's all marketing, to try and cover up the fact generally on a lot of the routes between the big cities and Towns, they cannot compete very well with the private operators on journey time, frequency, comfort or cost, so instead what they do is make a few small improvements, put a shiny new livery on and spend a huge amount of money on marketing and try and sell what isn't a very special product as something better than it is, however you have to say in many cases that has been very successful and has worked very well for them, but most of it stems back to the fact that they are not a forward looking company and are too reactive to following the competition rather than pro-active in service development themselves.

Although to bring it back to Aircoach who we discussed earlier, they are now falling into the same trap, by ordering new vehicles that are 1m shorter than what they are replacing with essentially the same number of seats in them which reduces leg-room. Aircoach still persists with Travel in Luxury, even though the 22 coaches that arrived in 2014-2015 were a step down on the other new orders they had, the 32 Setras in 2003/4 and the 19 Volvos in 2008/2009 which had a huge amount of legroom and proper leather interiors. Now all Aircoach has is bog standard leg-room and cheap thin e-leather seating on the newest vehicles.

XPS_Zero

Your point on them being reactive rather than pro active sums them up. Look how the air services were before Aircoach. Without it now if you live in say Killiney there's no Dublin Bus south side version of the 747 on the Stillorgan dual carrigway. So it's a v expensive taxi or you get a DART to Malahide or Sutton and get on a 102.

Why is it a company that doesn't even need to make a profit is afraid to innovate or take risks, I know there's probably s bit of PS culture of "change is bad" but they moaned and moaned when new operators came in but were unwilling to do any changes that might render that competition moot

mickmmc

The Aircoach fleet in the past were a pleasure to travel on (Setra and Jonckeere tri-axial). Aircoach have purchased standard axial Plaxton Panthers in recent years.

IMO, the Plaxton Panther is an inferior coach because:

The seats are of a poorer quality and there is less legroom than the Jonckeere and the old Setra.

There is a significant wind noise on the Cork plaxton coaches; the door is not sealing properly. I have seen cloths and tissues stuck to the door to reduce the noise.

The toilet door rattles badly, the overhead luggage compartment has begun to rattle and the seat belt buckle rattles off the window frame.

The Panther does take off like a rocket and has a nice toilet but it is no Setra or Jonckeere tri-axial.

The white 05 Setra (spare) is a beautiful coach and a far more comfortable coach than the Panthers on the Cork route.

XPS_Zero

http://journeyplanner.translink.co.uk/ext_webpdf_desk/TTB/20160809-113519/nir/EFA02__0700X3y14_TP.pdf

Looking at this new X3/X4 Derry/Dublin timetable it's really hard to understand.

First, unlike the X1/X2 where they do totally seperate versions of the same route, there are two X4s leaving for example at 11am where ones non stop with one destination the other stopping in between to a different destination...but the same number, that's really confusing!

Second, that 11am X4 that's non stop fascinates me for the purported 2 hour trip but it doesn't end in the bus centre but in some place called Moy Square which I can't find in any map of Derry and when I put it into google maps it takes me to a place near Lough Neigh....,anyone know where it is and how far from the Foyle Bus station?

Third, the X3 is no more an express than the 33 was despite the timetable appearing to show it skipping places...it still takes the same four hours.

Fourth, None of these options show a non stop BusAras to Foyle Bus Station which I assume
most people would want, or anything close to iT.

johnnyryan89

salonfire wrote: »

During the week, I took Day Return trip with Bus Eireann (8 hours traveling altogether) and I was a broken man after it. Never again !!

The coaches were modern (an 07 one way and 12 on the return), but extremely uncomfortable I thought. Does anyone find this? I was surprised at how uncomfortable it was.


The seats are thin, therefore have little cushioning meaning the back of the seat is quite hard. And every bump on the road was felt up through the seat and heard with every rattle - rattles seemed to come from the ceiling or something.

The seats are quite upright and have short, horizontal cushions - not ideal for sitting in for a long time.

Then, the seatbelts (over the shoulder) are very 'tense' or something, pulling you further into the hard seat. Even pulling out the belt needed a strong arm to get it on and clipped in. Nothing like a regular car seat belt.

Bus Eireann advertise these as the alternative to the car but I'm not convinced for long journeys. Public Transport is fine around cities and that, I use Luas and Dublin Bus all the time when in Dublin no problem.

After doing 1,166km last week on a bus and 662km of that was on a 14 seater mini bus from Limerick-Derry and back again I feel your pain OP haha.

LXFlyer

XPS_Zero wrote: »

http://journeyplanner.translink.co.uk/ext_webpdf_desk/TTB/20160809-113519/nir/EFA02__0700X3y14_TP.pdf

Looking at this new X3/X4 Derry/Dublin timetable it's really hard to understand.

First, unlike the X1/X2 where they do totally seperate versions of the same route, there are two X4s leaving for example at 11am where ones non stop with one destination the other stopping in between to a different destination...but the same number, that's really confusing!

Second, that 11am X4 that's non stop fascinates me for the purported 2 hour trip but it doesn't end in the bus centre but in some place called Moy Square which I can't find in any map of Derry and when I put it into google maps it takes me to a place near Lough Neigh....,anyone know where it is and how far from the Foyle Bus station?

Third, the X3 is no more an express than the 33 was despite the timetable appearing to show it skipping places...it still takes the same four hours.

Fourth, None of these options show a non stop BusAras to Foyle Bus Station which I assume
most people would want, or anything close to iT.

I suspect those extra X4 buses are short workings to help the Derry coach out or else connections from Moy in Co. Armagh into the main service at Armagh. They operate to/from the Square in Moy, Co Armagh - they don't go to/from Derry.

There is a balance to be struck here - there is a need for faster end-to-end journeys but there is also a need for limited stop services that serve intermediate towns as well - you can't just abandon them. That's why BE still have the X8 serving Cashel, Fermoy and Mitchelstown and the 20 serving towns along the Dublin/Galway route - there are still reasonable numbers to justify them. Whether there is demand for a high frequency non-stop Dublin/Derry service I don't know - it's that bit too long without a break I would think. I imagine that as it is, the bus companies do put on auxiliary departures to cope if needed that would leave out stops.

There are all sorts of reasons for why we are where we are - most of them legacy issues to do with how bus and coach services were regulated historically.

The Expressway network was developed by Bus Eireann on the old road network, but now with our new licensing process they were left with a network of services that were deemed commercial, but being honest are a hotch potch of PSO and express/limited stop routes for which they receive no subsidy. Some of the services would not be viewed by private operators as viable, yet BE still operate them.

When BE have attempted to tackle this by removing stops on certain routes due to them being uneconomic, there has been a massive furore, and the NTA have had to step in and provide limited PSO funded services to serve those places that have had their service removed.

"Express" can mean a number of things - it can be non-stop or limited stop. Some people here are just using the former, but the latter is a valid description too.

In the case of the X3 and X4 they are limited stop services - also note that at most stops they only pick up in one direction and set down in the other. That limits custom to those travelling longer distances.

The 33/X3 is just a numbering issue - one is used for BE services, the other for Translink - nothing more than that.

As for an earlier point about the airport suggesting that BE are at a disadvantage against Aircoach by not serving the terminal forecourt - it's only a 2 minute walk through the car park atrium - if someone can walk through the airport they can also do that walk. That is probably the most fanciful suggestion that I've read here in a long time.

Boulevardier

Have BE changed the arrangement they had a few years ao in which Dublin-Galway services went Busaras-Airport-Galway? It meant a ludicrous addition to journey time for Busaras-Galway passengers.

Operators like GO have always done a much more sensible Airport-Quays-Galway run. BE's excuse was probably that Busaras is difficult to transit through, but really, services leaving Busaras should only call at the airport if they are going North anyway. South and West bound services should do the airport before Busaras. I hope BE have now changed this pattern.

LXFlyer

Boulevardier wrote: »

Have BE changed the arrangement they had a few years ao in which Dublin-Galway services went Busaras-Airport-Galway? It meant a ludicrous addition to journey time for Busaras-Galway passengers.

Operators like GO have always done a much more sensible Airport-Quays-Galway run. BE's excuse was probably that Busaras is difficult to transit through, but really, services leaving Busaras should only call at the airport if they are going North anyway. South and West bound services should do the airport before Busaras. I hope BE have now changed this pattern.

BE operate Dublin City and then Dublin Airport and then operate to Galway.

I imagine that the routing is an issue of how the services are licensed by the NTA rather than how BE unilaterally deciding to operate them that way.

devnull

lxflyer wrote: »

There is a balance to be struck here - there is a need for faster end-to-end journeys but there is also a need for limited stop services that serve intermediate towns as well - you can't just abandon them. That's why BE still have the X8 serving Cashel, Fermoy and Mitchelstown and the 20 serving towns along the Dublin/Galway route - there are still reasonable numbers to justify them.

Soon as Aircoach started launching express services on Dublin to Cork, Bus Eireann dropped a number of stops from what will soon be called the 8X (marketing gimmick) and went with a timetable that was not at all possible in a vain attempt to try and make it look much faster than it actually was. After a while they had to recast the timetable because it was living in cloud cuckoo land, I agree that there are still numbers to justify the service, but the simple fact is that BE don't run an end to end express service because two operators who were innovative got there before them.

Whether there is demand for a high frequency non-stop Dublin/Derry service I don't know - it's that bit too long without a break I would think. I imagine that as it is, the bus companies do put on auxiliary departures to cope if needed that would leave out stops.

Whether there is demand or not is entirely up to TL/BE to decide, with TL being less regulated in BE and able to use more taxpayers assets than BE for cross border services, any private operator knows that should they start such a service they would be pushed out very quickly, they would not be afforded the protection they would get within the ROI when it comes to making sure competition is fair. There won't be a private company running that service directly with the current regulatory environment, that shipped sailed a long while ago and an operator decided that after all of the issues that would most likely be put in their way and the kind of competition they would likely face, it just wasn't worth their while.

The Expressway network was developed by Bus Eireann on the old road network, but now with our new licensing process they were left with a network of services that were deemed commercial, but being honest are a hotch potch of PSO and express/limited stop routes for which they receive no subsidy. Some of the services would not be viewed by private operators as viable, yet BE still operate them.

I think they would be viable for private operators, but in reality there is not enough demand for two companies to operate to some of those smaller places that are operated by the Expressway services, just isn't enough demand for them. BE is in a unique position since it is the dominant operator and whilst that has things that are for and against them, they have a lot of legacy customers which dates back to a time where the licensing system was biased in the interests of CIE rather than passengers or public transport in general.

When BE have attempted to tackle this by removing stops on certain routes due to them being uneconomic, there has been a massive furore, and the NTA have had to step in and provide limited PSO funded services to serve those places that have had their service removed.

But that is generally an issue with regards to the way the system has been structured over the years, this issue is not something that has happened overnight, it's a consequence of the way transport was regulated for many many years, the whole system was broken and whilst the NTA are making progress on that at the end of the day public transport users must come first and that hasn't been the case in the past and that will require a lot of reconfiguration of the way the market works and that will require for more PSO operates to be created by the NTA etc.

"Express" can mean a number of things - it can be non-stop or limited stop. Some people here are just using the former, but the latter is a valid description too.

Indeed but it should never be used as a marketing tool to mislead which is what is going on in some occasions, for example we have the X1/X2 and the X1a (even longer than the other two!) on the Belfast to Dublin route, which makes a mockery of the whole system. The renaming of the 1 to the X1 didn't involve any change of stops, it was just a marketing decision because the Aircoach service came along.

Essentially those services should be
X1 - Dublin to Belfast Express
1 - Dublin to Belfast Stopper
1a - Dublin to Belfast Stopper via Lisburn

If you go to the Europa Bus Centre in Belfast, the advertising literature doesn't even mention the fact that the current X1 stops at places en-route, it's actually listed as "X1 Express service to Dublin Airport and Dublin City" no mention of the other stops anywhere in the Bus Station, on the screens, on the timetables, not anywhere, that's marketing gimmicks trying to make the service look better than it actually is and not being upfront with the public, and the numbering system is a continuation of that and that is the very worst use of numbers.

In the case of the X3 and X4 they are limited stop services - also note that at most stops they only pick up in one direction and set down in the other. That limits custom to those travelling longer distances.

If this was the case, you could argue that Dublin Coach and JJK services are also limited stop routes. However they were denied X route suffixes on the basis that they were not an express service and they were limited stop rather than true express. This is despite the fact that their services have less stops than the competition and therefore are on par with what other routes are getting express designation for?

As for an earlier point about the airport suggesting that BE are at a disadvantage against Aircoach by not serving the terminal forecourt - it's only a 2 minute walk through the car park atrium - if someone can walk through the airport they can also do that walk. That is probably the most fanciful suggestion that I've read here in a long time.

You should put that viewpoint to the DAA since they certainly do not share the same views. The price that Dublin Bus and Aircoach are paying for the bays outside the terminal is far higher than Bus Eireann are paying in the Bus and Coach park beyond the attrium, so if it is not an advantage, then DAA must have some kind of hold over the companies which they can use to extort money out of them, since clearly there is no other reason why the companies would give in to such money grabbing tactics if it wasn't in their benefit?

lxflyer wrote: »

BE operate Dublin City and then Dublin Airport and then operate to Galway.

I imagine that the routing is an issue of how the services are licensed by the NTA rather than how BE unilaterally deciding to operate them that way.

Essentially GoBus came up with an innovative non stop service, think it may well have been the first one between any two cities in the country, then Citylink tried to copy them (with serious question marks about how they did it) therefore even if BE wanted to do it the other way they probably would not have been able to because other people go there first.

Boulevardier

There is no doubt at this stage that BE is operating with one hand tied behind its back. In its present form, it cannot hope to compete with new operators on a level playing field.

Regarding the airport issue, I think there is now a case for BE to run a completely seperate network from various points to and from Dublin airport only, and let Busaras buses run without calling at the airport at all.

foggy_lad

Boulevardier wrote: »

Have BE changed the arrangement they had a few years ao in which Dublin-Galway services went Busaras-Airport-Galway? It meant a ludicrous addition to journey time for Busaras-Galway passengers.

Operators like GO have always done a much more sensible Airport-Quays-Galway run. BE's excuse was probably that Busaras is difficult to transit through, but really, services leaving Busaras should only call at the airport if they are going North anyway. South and West bound services should do the airport before Busaras. I hope BE have now changed this pattern.

THe main reason they went Galway-Airport-Busaras was because after they changed the timetable they didn't leave enough time for the journey and most services were 30-60minutes late. they tried to get people to the airport first for flights but buses were still late.

After a few tweaks they have much improved the timings but there are still a number of delayed departures from Busaras and Galway daily because at peak times the journey is not possible in the time allocated on the timetable.

devnull

Boulevardier wrote: »

There is no doubt at this stage that BE is operating with one hand tied behind its back. In its present form, it cannot hope to compete with new operators on a level playing field.

Horses for courses really, there are some disadvantages of being BE rather than a fully stand alone commercial but there are also some advantages such as

- Exclusive use of publicly funded infrastructure, that other operators have to pay for
- Brand awareness from a time when competition simply wasn't permitted.
- The first pick of all services years before any other operators were allowed
- Custom Built up over many years where they were the only service due to the above
- The advantage of buying in bulk due to their sheer size due to the combination of PSO/Commercial Arms.
- Reduced levels of commercial risk, if one service performs badly it is unlikely to bankrupt the company due to sheer size of it because of it's historical position

The privates would argue the following
- BE is protected from competition and some routes which are PSO actually could be run profitably but at the moment they cannot run them
- They have to pay for bus stops, infrastructure and terminus facilities, most of which BE have provided by the state.
- They do not have the benefit of large state exclusive contracts to balance with their less stable commercial services, therefore making the business less secure
- BE Benefit from economies of scale by having the Commercial and PSO arms linked and having one central website, central depot etc, whilst the PSO side does charge the commercial side for this, having one facuilty split 50% each is still cheaper than having on each.
- They have a service on every single corridor by default being the incumbent.

I don't pretend for one moment that BE have a perfect deal but the privates will tell you that at the same time they don't either have one, it's best that no party is totally happy, because if any party is happy then it means that the services are being run based on the operators demands, rather than that of the public and that is never good to see.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

You should put that viewpoint to the DAA since they certainly do not share the same views. The price that Dublin Bus and Aircoach are paying for the bays outside the terminal is far higher than Bus Eireann are paying in the Bus and Coach park beyond the attrium, so if it is not an advantage, then DAA must have some kind of hold over the companies which they can use to extort money out of them, since clearly there is no other reason why the companies would give in to such money grabbing tactics if it wasn't in their benefit?

In the context of services around Dublin, it could indeed prove an advantage - the operators closest to the terminal may have first pick of arriving passengers, but really for long distance customers I don't think that they are going to choose a coach service based on whether the bus stop is directly outside the terminal or a 2 minute walk away.


The main factor will be the timetable I would suggest, followed by price.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

Soon as Aircoach started launching express services on Dublin to Cork, Bus Eireann dropped a number of stops from what will soon be called the 8X (marketing gimmick) and went with a timetable that was not at all possible in a vain attempt to try and make it look much faster than it actually was. After a while they had to recast the timetable because it was living in cloud cuckoo land, I agree that there are still numbers to justify the service, but the simple fact is that BE don't run an end to end express service because two operators who were innovative got there before them.

Neither you nor I know whether BE had the resources (physical or financial) to launch such a service at the time, as it would need additional coaches/staff. I genuinely don't know if they did, but I suspect there is more to it than is in the public domain.


Of course they subsequently reacted, given it is a commercial service - but the resources haven't changed on the route in terms of the number of departures.


I entirely agree about operators producing schedules that are in cloud cuckoo land (and BE are by no means alone in that) - there should be a monitoring period after any timetable is introduced and if it's not working there should be a minimum period within which it is fixed.

I've long been an advocate of rail over bus and still would be for trips to Tralee. However, I'm now in a long distance relationship with a woman in Galway so I'm regularly going back and forth. Citylink is a no brainer for me, significantly cheaper and non-stop. No time difference either, and their coaches are pretty good most of the time, except on one occasion when the air conditioning was left off!

So while I'd like to take the train to and from Galway, it doesn't make much sense.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

But that is generally an issue with regards to the way the system has been structured over the years, this issue is not something that has happened overnight, it's a consequence of the way transport was regulated for many many years, the whole system was broken and whilst the NTA are making progress on that at the end of the day public transport users must come first and that hasn't been the case in the past and that will require a lot of reconfiguration of the way the market works and that will require for more PSO operates to be created by the NTA etc.

That was the point that I was making - we are in a kind of hybrid time period now where we are moving from a position where CIE ran all of the services, with significant political interference to one with managed competition by transport professionals in the form of the NTA.

It is going to take significant time to actually get to a common sense position with regard to which of Bus Eireann's services are commercial and which should be PSO. It's a mess that the NTA inherited and to be fair they are trying to sort it out, but I don't believe it will happen over night.

Competition is good and so are non-stop city-to-city express services, but there is still a need for connectivity to be maintained along the corridors - with services connecting towns along the route. The end-to-end service won't always make economic sense on its own - it will depend upon the nature of the roads and the towns en route.

gctest50

devnull wrote: »

These are the coaches you are after:
...................

This is what ya need :