Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2016/2017

NukaCola

Gbear wrote: »

I think it just depends who you're attributing failure to.

By any standards, 8th is not good enough for us.
We're the 6th best team. If everyone plays to their level that's where we should be.

We were below our level last year, even as teams who should be our rivals were as well.

That doesn't mean Klopp failed in itself, because his brief wasn't to perform a miracle.
The club as a whole did though.
To me, trophies only count if you win them. For the club, no trophies and 8th is just crap any way you cut it.

But to go with that there's the future promise of trophies and moving in the right direction and that's down to believing generally in what Klopp's about.

There were still enough points on offer last season and we had a shot at 3 cups in one form or another so Klopp can't be said to have succeeded, but defining a new way of playing, sorting out who had to be kept and who needed to be discarded, planning for this summer's transfers and showing we can perform in big games were successes of a sort that will be fully legitimised if we take those steps and go on and win something.

Without knowing the future I don't think you can say the foundations laid in the last 9 months were successful, but if we do succeed then you can retroactively say we did things the right way with a greater degree of confidence.

Pretty much agree with everything bar the bolded part, really enjoyed our cup runs, and that experience that the whole squad got is something you cant buy.

mosstin

RainMakerToo wrote: »

Looks like Arsenal lost another defender there this evening, Gabriel with a bad looking injury towards the end.
Should be something of a make-shift back 4 next week.
I'd expect Wenger to finally bring in another defender now, but more likely before the end of the window than before the game next week.

We're in exactly the same boat, no? Karius, Sakho both missing. Moreno probably starting which is mystifying. Lovren carrying a knock and Milner probably out. There'll be goals in this.

Harry Palmr

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Probably been answered but why did we play 2 friendlies in 2 days?

Strange

Good question - probably a mix of being Karius and Klopp's old club. They really should have split the squad there was no need to haul everyone over and risk playing anyone twice in two days.

klose

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Probably been answered but why did we play 2 friendlies in 2 days?

Strange

I think the list of friendlies was released all well and good and when we signed karius I imagine part of the deal was a friendly game to be played and that's the only slot they had? Could be wrong of course.

In any case, strange enough decision by klopp to play some players twice in two days regardless of how many minutes they played, really should have been squad and kid players today instead of some first teamers being involved.

Definitely not the greatest planning in the world!

Gbear

NukaCola wrote: »

Pretty much agree with everything bar the bolded part, really enjoyed our cup runs, and that experience that the whole squad got is something you cant buy.

True.

They're something I look forward to this season and I love that we're getting off to a potential cracker against Arsenal.

I'd like the team to be aiming to give us big nights we can enjoy. That's kinda why we're here on a game by game basis.

When you look back at it after the fact though, I don't think you can say "we had good craic but won no trophies" amounts to success.

cj maxx

I have no idea where we'll finish but Klopp has me optimistic. Like 13/14 we have things in our favour like city/ utd/ chelsea all having new managers and will be finding their feet. Like everyone im concerned about LB and CM but sure roll on Arsenal

mikeym

2 Steps Forward.

2 Steps Back.

This is how I summarise Liverpool Fc.

Arsenal never seem to win their first match so we could get 3 points from the Emirates.

Not a great away fixture over the years but perhaps a good time to play them.

BorneTobyWilde

If Balotelli remains will he ever see the pitch
Markovic was a flop too but Klopp gives him a chance
If Sturridge is not fit next week does Benteke make bench

8-10

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

If Balotelli remains will he ever see the pitch
Markovic was a flop too but Klopp gives him a chance
If Sturridge is not fit next week does Benteke make bench

Don't see any of those 3 making the bench in the league this year. Good offer comes in for any of them and they're gone

Harry Palmr

Origi, Ings, Firmino and Sane are plenty of attacking options.

edit Mane obviously (the number of times I've done that)

J Mysterio

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Origi, Ings, Firmino and Sane are plenty of attacking options.

:O

BorneTobyWilde

My sidekick abilities tell me we will do alright this season.
Hopefully Balotelli jumps on his bi seagull soon enough

Mr.H

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Probably been answered but why did we play 2 friendlies in 2 days?

Strange

I have a feeling it was probably an agreement part of the deal that involved Karius.

A way for their fans to say goodbye (at the time thinking he would be playing) and a nice little pay day for them also. Plus the Klopp return could be a draw for the fans.

Could be wrong often am, and will be again I'm sure. But thats the only thing that make sense to me with having two games in two days.

*Just to throw everything I stated into doubt, we also played two games in two days last year afair. But I think the Mainz game was only arranged around the time of the Karius deal hense the theory

Kirby

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

My sidekick abilities

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Balotelli jumps on his bi seagull soon enough

BorneTobyWilde.exe has encountered an error and needs to restart.

NukaCola

Kirby wrote: »

BorneTobyWilde.exe has encountered an error and needs to restart.

I'm fluent in BorneTobyWilde. I'll attempt to translate.

sidekick = psychic
bi seagull = bicycle

Mr.H

murpho999 wrote: »

Every year you set a target.

I would be almost certain that Klopp has set it as to reach top 4 at a minimum.
Anything outside that then is a failure. It's very simple.

Also, why are you bringing money into it? Money does not guarantee success and Liverpool are not poor or have been shy of spending money.

I would never accept 5th or 6th as what our standard should be even though that's what it has been since 2009. That needs to change and I think Klopp is the man to change it.

Ok let me give it one last try but tbh I think we will have to agree to disagree (kinda)

lets say we are the management team.....

We need to come up with a SMART target for the season

Specific
Measurable
Achievable
Realistic
Timely

We have two scenarios:

• you want us to finish 4th
• I want us to get 70 points

Does your target fall under the SMART list? Does mine?

Specific - it must be a defined end goal. We need to know what the end result will be. What is 4th place to you? 20 wins? unbeaten at home? My question is, you say you want 4th but what achieves 4th?

If we go on a great run and end up in a fight with Chelsea for 4th and we both have 65 points with 4 games to go. Is it a failure if we dont get 4th? with 70 points? or is it a success if we end up with 4th with 66 points?

Measurable - you cant measure your target. At Christmas the best you can say is we are still up there. Where I can specifically say if we are on course points wise.

Achievable - No point in saying we are winning the league. We are behind better teams right now. We have it all to prove. Setting the league as a target only leads to failure as it will demoralise those with unrealistic expectations and put pressure on the team when not needed.

Realistic - pretty much covered above.

Timely - The goal or target must be set with time in mind. Lets say this season I want us to get 70 points. Next season I can demand 73 points as I am not looking for 73 points or the league this season. You have to build expectation slowly and understand there will be some downfalls along the way. Give time for your plan to work. If we target 70 points and we have 20 at Christmas we shouldnt panic. We just re-evaluate what could be an achievable amount of points and hope it will suffice.


When it comes to making business plans I know what I am talking about and that is why I am confident in my expectation. It is a measurable expectation.

I know you may still disagree and your entitled to. But first let me say, if we miss out on 4th we shouldnt write off the team. We need to be logical and ask one question:

Did the team play and live up to a true reflection of their real life comparability to the rest of the league (i.e; are the teams above us seen as bigger teams than us?)


****PS
It is ok to be upset by the outcome of the season. I just dont think an upset is necessarily a failed season

Harry Palmr

.

corwill

Mr.H wrote: »

We need to come up with a SMART target for the season

Specific
Measurable
Achievable
Realistic
Timely

As if I wasn't dreading work in the morning enough...

redzerdrog

Achievable and realistic are basically the same the R should be relevant!

Alonso77

In thought the "R" was silent.

martyos121

Alonso77 wrote: »

In thought the "R" was silent.

Only if you're from Australia.

corwill

redzerdrog wrote: »

Achievable and realistic are basically the same the R should be relevant!

Try getting that through the foot-thick skull of a HR crittur.

LuckyLloyd

emo72 wrote: »

It's the new season. A ball hasn't been kicked yet. We haven't dropped a point yet. If you can't be optimistic before a ball is kicked!

Optimistic about what? Our rivals around us are signing superior players, hiring the elite coaches and the lack of European football is negated as an advantage in this very special year.

I don't know what will happen, but if we end up in the top four at the end of the season Klopp really is a very special coach.

MD1990

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Optimistic about what? Our rivals around us are signing superior players, hiring the elite coaches and the lack of European football is negated as an advantage in this very special year.

I don't know what will happen, but if we end up in the top four at the end of the season Klopp really is a very special coach.

Your obsessed with wanting us to spend huge sums we don't have. You wanted Hulk for 40m who is now in China getting one final big payday.

Have faith in Klopp's ability to improve players on the training pitch as he showed at Dortmund with even less resources. Right now there is no outstanding team in the PL. I'm very confident we will make at least top 4.

murpho999

Mr.H wrote: »

Ok let me give it one last try but tbh I think we will have to agree to disagree (kinda)

lets say we are the management team.....

We need to come up with a SMART target for the season

Specific
Measurable
Achievable
Realistic
Timely

We have two scenarios:

• you want us to finish 4th
• I want us to get 70 points

Does your target fall under the SMART list? Does mine?

Specific - it must be a defined end goal. We need to know what the end result will be. What is 4th place to you? 20 wins? unbeaten at home? My question is, you say you want 4th but what achieves 4th?

If we go on a great run and end up in a fight with Chelsea for 4th and we both have 65 points with 4 games to go. Is it a failure if we dont get 4th? with 70 points? or is it a success if we end up with 4th with 66 points?

Measurable - you cant measure your target. At Christmas the best you can say is we are still up there. Where I can specifically say if we are on course points wise.

Achievable - No point in saying we are winning the league. We are behind better teams right now. We have it all to prove. Setting the league as a target only leads to failure as it will demoralise those with unrealistic expectations and put pressure on the team when not needed.

Realistic - pretty much covered above.

Timely - The goal or target must be set with time in mind. Lets say this season I want us to get 70 points. Next season I can demand 73 points as I am not looking for 73 points or the league this season. You have to build expectation slowly and understand there will be some downfalls along the way. Give time for your plan to work. If we target 70 points and we have 20 at Christmas we shouldnt panic. We just re-evaluate what could be an achievable amount of points and hope it will suffice.


When it comes to making business plans I know what I am talking about and that is why I am confident in my expectation. It is a measurable expectation.

I know you may still disagree and your entitled to. But first let me say, if we miss out on 4th we shouldnt write off the team. We need to be logical and ask one question:

Did the team play and live up to a true reflection of their real life comparability to the rest of the league (i.e; are the teams above us seen as bigger teams than us?)


****PS
It is ok to be upset by the outcome of the season. I just dont think an upset is necessarily a failed season

OK can't believe I'm responding to this but I will at the risk of boring other posters.

Using your SMART acronym that I am familiar with but you don't seem to understand that it is judged on your result not your progress.

Specific:
Goal is top 4 (not just 4th). How is that not specific?
Getting 65 points and 4th is better than getting 70 points and 5th in my book.

Your target is arguably less specific as you could have 70 points and still finish 6th. Is that success? It all depends on how your opponents are doing.

Measureable

How can you not measure a target of top 4?
It's simple. You look at the league table after 38 games.

Achievable

Why isn't top 4 achievable?

The club also almost won the title only 2 seasons ago, so no reason not to aim for it every year.

Realistic

A top 4 finish has to be realistic for Liverpool.
Why on earth would Klopp and his players want to play for a team that sets low goals and shows zero ambition?

Timely

Again, I don't think you understand it. It means the target must be achieved within a defined time frame. That's easy, by the end of the season.

If they're 5th on game 37 but finish 4th in game 38 then they have hit their target.

Your target is no good. A specific points target is for teams thinking 40 points staves off relegation, the top end of the table works on finishing position not points.

2009 was ultimately a failure as we finished second on 86 points , a total that would normally win the league but Utd got 90. Chelsea won the following season with 86 but their win was just as successful as Utd's as the finishing position is more important than the points total.

Delighted to hear you do business plans. They would look even more impressive if you learned the difference between "you're" and "your" by the way.

RainMakerToo

Ah lads, can we not just look forward to the new season with a bit of optimism.

Arsenal already have a defensive crisis before the season starts (again?)
Man City by the looks of them today - it's gonna take a while, nearly shot themselves in the foot a couple of times today trying to play out from the back - should have conceded at least 1 goal from that, still lost 3-2
Chelsea gonna park the bus, but still look weak up front, if they can't score enough they won't challenge
Man Utd - probably my prediction to win the title... reluctantly.
Spurs - think they will suffer from last years failure.
Leicester - pfft - one off season.
Liverpool - saw what out premiership team were capable of Saturday, saw what our League Cup team are capable of Sunday

~Rebel~

murpho999 wrote: »

OK can't believe I'm responding to this but I will at the risk of boring other posters.

Using your SMART acronym that I am familiar with but you don't seem to understand that it is judged on your result not your progress.

Specific:
Goal is top 4 (not just 4th). How is that not specific?
Getting 65 points and 4th is better than getting 70 points and 5th in my book.

Your target is arguably less specific as you could have 70 points and still finish 6th. Is that success? It all depends on how your opponents are doing.

Isn't that the entire point?

Look at the olympics now - athletes don't target positions or medals, they target times. They aim for the best time they can physically achieve and whatever result that achieves is what they get. They 'want' medals, but they target clearly defined times they can work towards.

It's the only logical approach - as you said, you have no control over other teams performances. All you can do is set your own targets, which you can achieve independent of the achievements of those around you - just like the Olympians.


Incidentally, you seem to be taking this approach as a lack of ambition - it's not, it's simply the logical way to achieve anything. If you want top 4, what exactly are you aiming for? What if top 4 this year requires 60 points? Or 90 points? It's a variable goal, and as such you can't tailor any thought or approach towards it. Instead, logically, you ascertain what you think the highest points total you can achieve is, and aim towards that. You target 75 points because you want top 4. It's tangible and quantifiable.

If you make your 75 point target but it turns out that the top four clubs win every single game except against each other, you still know exactly where you stand and can feel good about achieving your target, rather than bad that other people did things completely outside of your control.

BorneTobyWilde

What's up with Sturridge
Groin injury?
We can't go on together
..with suspicious groins
And we can't build a team
...with suspicious groins.

J Mysterio

Alright lads, there are three envelopes...

murpho999

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Isn't that the entire point?

Look at the olympics now - athletes don't target positions or medals, they target times. They aim for the best time they can physically achieve and whatever result that achieves is what they get. They 'want' medals, but they target clearly defined times they can work towards.

It's the only logical approach - as you said, you have no control over other teams performances. All you can do is set your own targets, which you can achieve independent of the achievements of those around you - just like the Olympians.


Incidentally, you seem to be taking this approach as a lack of ambition - it's not, it's simply the logical way to achieve anything. If you want top 4, what exactly are you aiming for? What if top 4 this year requires 60 points? Or 90 points? It's a variable goal, and as such you can't tailor any thought or approach towards it. Instead, logically, you ascertain what you think the highest points total you can achieve is, and aim towards that. You target 75 points because you want top 4. It's tangible and quantifiable.

If you make your 75 point target but it turns out that the top four clubs win every single game except against each other, you still know exactly where you stand and can feel good about achieving your target, rather than bad that other people did things completely outside of your control.

You are not comparing like with like. An athlete knows their limits.

Also, a race is a one time event with one shot at it so the best time possible has to be the target.

Football is over a long season with plenty of opportunities to assess progress and that of your opponents and adapt.
Olympic Athletes don't get that opportunity.

I would not be happy if we got 75 points but did not get top 4.

K-9

4th is being the 4th best team in the league, if it takes 60 or 80 points it doesn't really matter.

K-9

4th is being the 4th best team in the league, if it takes 60 or 80 points it doesn't really matter. That's a reflection on how competitive the rest of the league is.

Mr.H

murpho999 wrote: »

You are not comparing like with like. An athlete knows their limits.

Also, a race is a one time event with one shot at it so the best time possible has to be the target.

Football is over a long season with plenty of opportunities to assess progress and that of your opponents and adapt.
Olympic Athletes don't get that opportunity.

I would not be happy if we got 75 points but did not get top 4.

So I guess we are just tomato tomatoing it??

For the record we all want a top 4.

I and "some" others think that by getting 70 points (approx) we should achieve said goal of a top 4 spot.

It is a number to target to achieve the goal.

If you dont have a number to aim at, you constantly look at the table every week and compare yourself to other teams instead of focusing on your own team.

For example:
<random sim week>
Liverpool v Arsenal (we draw 0-0)
Spurs v Palace (Spurs win 1-0)

In your scenario we could be talking about a meltdown on here if spurs go ahead of us on that given week.

But in my scenario we look at it as a point closer to our target and we dont start shouting "Klopp out"

No offence intended (I sincerely mean that) but your mentality is that of most typical couch fans.

I am no better a fan than you and I am not trying to be on any high horse. I am just a mathematical/logical thinker. My thinking is that if we have a logical target (i,e; 70 points) then that is something you can measure and reassess as the season goes on.


*By the way off topic kinda - SMART goals work best when they are not just set in stone and you reassess them as your project develops. Having more restrictive goals will damage your project when (inevitably) it doesnt go according to plan

Mr.H

K-9 wrote: »

4th is being the 4th best team in the league, if it takes 60 or 80 points it doesn't really matter. That's a reflection on how competitive the rest of the league is.

Simple example. Lets say you where sitting a test. Marked out of 100. There is a time limit to finish the test so you must answer the questions as fast as you can. There are 20 people in your class.

You want to be one of the best in the class. In fact you have a bet with a friend that you will be one of the best in the class.

Do you;

• Just wing it and try the best you can answering each question as you go on

or

• Realise how many points you probably need to get a top 4 and then focus on the questions that will bring you to that target

Its a logical dilemma but an obvious answer (although I am sure many will want to play stubborn but each to their own)

mosstin

murpho999 wrote: »

OK can't believe I'm responding to this but I will at the risk of boring other posters.

Using your SMART acronym that I am familiar with but you don't seem to understand that it is judged on your result not your progress.

Specific:
Goal is top 4 (not just 4th). How is that not specific?
Getting 65 points and 4th is better than getting 70 points and 5th in my book.

Your target is arguably less specific as you could have 70 points and still finish 6th. Is that success? It all depends on how your opponents are doing.

Measureable

How can you not measure a target of top 4?
It's simple. You look at the league table after 38 games.

Achievable

Why isn't top 4 achievable?

The club also almost won the title only 2 seasons ago, so no reason not to aim for it every year.

Realistic

A top 4 finish has to be realistic for Liverpool.
Why on earth would Klopp and his players want to play for a team that sets low goals and shows zero ambition?

Timely

Again, I don't think you understand it. It means the target must be achieved within a defined time frame. That's easy, by the end of the season.

If they're 5th on game 37 but finish 4th in game 38 then they have hit their target.

Your target is no good. A specific points target is for teams thinking 40 points staves off relegation, the top end of the table works on finishing position not points.

2009 was ultimately a failure as we finished second on 86 points , a total that would normally win the league but Utd got 90. Chelsea won the following season with 86 but their win was just as successful as Utd's as the finishing position is more important than the points total.

Delighted to hear you do business plans. They would look even more impressive if you learned the difference between "you're" and "your" by the way.

"At the risk of boring other posters" - too ****ing late for that.

Vicxas

Jesus lads, we went proper buzz word crazy last night didn't we, i was expecting to see "blue sky thinking", "Low hanging fruit" and "Paradigm shifting" being thrown about.

PaddyWilliams

Vicxas wrote: »

Jesus lads, we went proper buzz word crazy last night didn't we, i was expecting to see "blue sky thinking", "Low hanging fruit" and "Paradigm shifting" being thrown about.

Wait until they start talking about 'Synergy'. Fcuk my life.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

careca

I'm pretty sure we are currently top of the alternative league table


/may not understand or give value to said table

mormank

Mr.H wrote: »

So I guess we are just tomato tomatoing it??

For the record we all want a top 4.

I and "some" others think that by getting 70 points (approx) we should achieve said goal of a top 4 spot.

It is a number to target to achieve the goal.

If you dont have a number to aim at, you constantly look at the table every week and compare yourself to other teams instead of focusing on your own team.

For example:
<random sim week>
Liverpool v Arsenal (we draw 0-0)
Spurs v Palace (Spurs win 1-0)

In your scenario we could be talking about a meltdown on here if spurs go ahead of us on that given week.

But in my scenario we look at it as a point closer to our target and we dont start shouting "Klopp out"

No offence intended (I sincerely mean that) but your mentality is that of most typical couch fans.

I am no better a fan than you and I am not trying to be on any high horse. I am just a mathematical/logical thinker. My thinking is that if we have a logical target (i,e; 70 points) then that is something you can measure and reassess as the season goes on.


*By the way off topic kinda - SMART goals work best when they are not just set in stone and you reassess them as your project develops. Having more restrictive goals will damage your project when (inevitably) it doesnt go according to plan

I think the bit in bold just contradicts your entire argument and wins the argument for whoever the other guy was. If the goals (in this case the points total) is not set in stone and open to reassessment this would suggest that if it was looking like 4th was going to be unachievable with 70 points the goals would move to 75 points or whatever. Since the entire idea of targeting 70 points was to claim top 4 in the first place we must assume the points target will increase when needed throughout the season, and possibly decrease, meaning that the 70 points is just a rough guide basically in our ultimate goal of finishing top 4. I.e. they were never targetting 70 points, just top 4.

murpho999

mormank wrote: »

I think the bit in bold just contradicts your entire argument and wins the argument for whoever the other guy was. If the goals (in this case the points total) is not set in stone and open to reassessment this would suggest that if it was looking like 4th was going to be unachievable with 70 points the goals would move to 75 points or whatever. Since the entire idea of targeting 70 points was to claim top 4 in the first place we must assume the points target will increase when needed throughout the season, and possibly decrease, meaning that the 70 points is just a rough guide basically in our ultimate goal of finishing top 4. I.e. they were never targetting 70 points, just top 4.

That other guy was me, and you are dead right.

I have never heard a manager outside relegation battlers talk about targets in terms of points. It's 'Top half of the table", "Top 4" or "Champions".

LuckyLloyd

MD1990 wrote: »

Your obsessed with wanting us to spend huge sums we don't have. You wanted Hulk for 40m who is now in China getting one final big payday.

Have faith in Klopp's ability to improve players on the training pitch as he showed at Dortmund with even less resources. Right now there is no outstanding team in the PL. I'm very confident we will make at least top 4.

Kante was cheaper than Mane. I know which will be the better signing.

SuperTortoise

Keep going lads, I've a dictionary ordered I'll be up to speed momenterally.

LiamoSail

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Kante was cheaper than Mane. I know which will be the better signing.

And I know which is the typical Liverpool signing

PaddyWilliams

SuperTortoise wrote: »

Keep going lads, I've a dictionary ordered I'll be up to speed momenterally.

Momentarily*

Get that dictionary, quick! :pac::D

gosplan

mormank wrote: »

I think the bit in bold just contradicts your entire argument and wins the argument for whoever the other guy was. If the goals (in this case the points total) is not set in stone and open to reassessment this would suggest that if it was looking like 4th was going to be unachievable with 70 points the goals would move to 75 points or whatever. Since the entire idea of targeting 70 points was to claim top 4 in the first place we must assume the points target will increase when needed throughout the season, and possibly decrease, meaning that the 70 points is just a rough guide basically in our ultimate goal of finishing top 4. I.e. they were never targetting 70 points, just top 4.

Just to prove the point...

Arsenal 2015/2016 - 71 points - 2nd place
Arsenal 2014/2015 - 75 points - 3rd place
Arsenal 2013/2014 - 79 points - 4th place

We're actually getting worse and further from a title.

Or we're going to win the league this year with 67 points.

LuckyLloyd

LiamoSail wrote: »

And I know which is the typical Liverpool signing

At some point, that becomes the problem. Pogba for £89m is becoming an increasingly typical Utd signing.

Bottom line is I'm not criticising the coach or saying our squad is terrible, etc. I'm merely looking at what's happened since we last kicked a competitive ball and I can't find a case for optimism in a relative sense. Definitely not in terms of our transfer dealings relative to our rivals anyway. I'm crossing my fingers that Klopp still retains magical properties as a coach and motivater, but to "expect" top four within our current context equates to an unreasonable level of faith in his abilities.

murpho999

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

At some point, that becomes the problem. Pogba for £89m is becoming an increasingly typical Utd signing.

Bottom line is I'm not criticising the coach or saying our squad is terrible, etc. I'm merely looking at what's happened since we last kicked a competitive ball and I can't find a case for optimism in a relative sense. Definitely not in terms of our transfer dealings relative to our rivals anyway. I'm crossing my fingers that Klopp still retains magical properties as a coach and motivater, but to "expect" top four within our current context equates to an unreasonable level of faith in his abilities.

How is a World Record signing a typical Utd signing?